4 bank Charger

[HangOutdoors]

Well this came today.
NOCO - 4-Bank 40A On-Board Battery Charger - GENPRO10X4 I don't know what I saw, but this thing is huge. It is as big as a darn battery almost. I wanted to just use one charger for batteries. 2 LiFePo4's (trolling motor) and 1 Northstar AGM (House) 1 stock Battery for starting. See pics with gallon of paint for perspective.

I am thinking I should just return it and get 2 Noco GenPro NOCO - 2-Bank 10A On-Board Battery Charger - GEN5X2

Not real sure what is the best course of action. Any words of wisdom would be appreciated?

 

[RobbieO]

This is the 2 bank charger I bought. It’s works awesome, maintains, and conditions. Newest generation.

Reliable marine charging solutions | ProMariner

ProMariner has 40 years of marine battery charging expertise. Our range of marine battery chargers, inverters and isolators provide powerful charging solutions.

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[TimW451]

I’d decide on the size of the product, not the box. Noco’s website says the 4 line one is 11.3 x 8.3 x 2.8in. The 5x2s are 7 x 5.6 x 2.2in each. You’ll also have two lines to feed with 2 of the 5x2s.

 

[HangOutdoors]

@RobbieO Yes that is a nice one, won't work in my scenario, it won't charge the Lithium Batteries (LiFePo4).

@TimW451 Yes of course, just really didn't want to open it if I was going to return it. I have a dual NOCO Port Plug just in case. Going to make a couple of cardboard cut outs of both units and just test fit them under the Port rear seat. Just was a lot bigger than I thought. Then the question is do I really need the 40 amps, 10 per bank...... Unsure. I have been reading up on charge, discharge, draw, loads and other battery stuff this evening. Trying to sort it all out.

Also learning about the Blue Seas Switch and how the ACR works with charging.

Also with the two Lithium Batteries since they are in a series for 24v, each battery needs a bank. Technically I think, I could use a three bank, or a 1 bank for house and starter hooked up to the ACR and 2 bank for the Lithium trolling motor batteries.

I guess were I am having a challenge figuring out is why 10 amps per bank would be better in my scenario than 5 amps per bank and will it really make that much difference if I go with the 10 amp per bank.

 

[212s]

@HangOutdoors Depends on how much you drain your batteries down during use. If you just use them a bit, 5amps is enough. If you run them down a lot, you'll want 10-25amps to fully recharge them for the next day. A pair of 80aH lithium batteries for trolling will take 14+ hours to fully recharge if you run them down to 25% using 10ampx2 charging (160aH total 25% = 40aH + 120aH charging - loss and rolloff = ~14 hours). If you run them down a lot and expect to be fully charged early next morning, you'll need a dual 15amp or more charger.

For your house+start I think a single 2-5amp is enough (I use a single 4amp Noco in my dual battery system), plus a 10amp dual for the trolling batteries (more if you run them down a lot). Maybe get the system installed first and see what you need, then install the chargers based on your system demands? Or you can just get a small on-board for the house+start now and get a portable charger for the trolling motors once you know more? Lots of options out there.

 

[FSH 210 Sport]

This Company has some great technical support...

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[marcham]

@RobbieO Yes that is a nice one, won't work in my scenario, it won't charge the Lithium Batteries (LiFePo4).

@TimW451 Yes of course, just really didn't want to open it if I was going to return it. I have a dual NOCO Port Plug just in case. Going to make a couple of cardboard cut outs of both units and just test fit them under the Port rear seat. Just was a lot bigger than I thought. Then the question is do I really need the 40 amps, 10 per bank...... Unsure. I have been reading up on charge, discharge, draw, loads and other battery stuff this evening. Trying to sort it all out.

Also learning about the Blue Seas Switch and how the ACR works with charging.

Also with the two Lithium Batteries since they are in a series for 24v, each battery needs a bank. Technically I think, I could use a three bank, or a 1 bank for house and starter hooked up to the ACR and 2 bank for the Lithium trolling motor batteries.

I guess were I am having a challenge figuring out is why 10 amps per bank would be better in my scenario than 5 amps per bank and will it really make that much difference if I go with the 10 amp per bank.

You'll need a way to disable the ACR while charging with shore power. Not necessary, but best for battery care. A switch in the acr ground wire will suffice.

Pay attention to the fusing requirements for the acr. Many builders skip this.

Or... get a 24v or 2x10A charger for the trolling batteries and then a 5 to 10A single channel charger hooked up to the house. The acr will then kick in and top off the starting battery. Simpler sometimes is better... A 3x10A charger could work well here...

 

[HangOutdoors]

@212s Ok, I think I am understanding now, great information. Appreciate it.

@marcham So basically if I just have one battery hooked up to a charger on the two batteries that are on the ACR I am good to go because the ACR will charge the starting battery first and when topped off it will switch and allow the House battery to charge. What I shouldn't do is put one bank each of the charger on a two battery system when both are hooked up to the ACR without disabling the ACR, without a way of disabling the ACR as you mentioned. Ok makes sense.

 

[FSH 210 Sport]

FWIW,

The dealer I bought my boat from set up my 36V trolling motor battery bank with a 3 bank MinnKota PC 330 charger. When I installed the hose / start battery charger I used a minnkota PC 220 2 bank charger. It is always best to charge each battery separately.

I have the OEM BEP Battery switch isolater. What type of battery switch is on your boat?




I just went and looked at the NOCO web page, read up on the charger you bought, looks to me like you have a pretty good charger for your needs as it has four separate chargers, each with the ability to charge whatever type of battery it is connected to, flooded, AGM, Lithium ion. If it was me I would run the charger you bought.

 

[HangOutdoors]

@FSH 210 Sport The charger was only $380 on amazon which is 25% off MSRP so I figured it would be good purchase.

I am going to lay it all out and diagram it out to see what it will look like.

 

[FSH 210 Sport]

@FSH 210 Sport The charger was only $380 on amazon which is 25% off MSRP so I figured it would be good purchase.

I am going to lay it all out and diagram it out to see what it will look like.

Sounds like a good plan!

 

[marcham]

Question for those with a factory installed BEP VSR: The D-VSR has an extra red wire. I'm curious if Yamaha hooks up the red wire to the ignition circuit? That would make the VSR active only with the ignition ON. The Blue Sea doesn't have this, they only have a start isolation (keep start and house battery separate while cranking the starter), which prevents voltage spikes/sags from reaching the electronics hooked up to the house battery.

@HangOutdoors if you use only 1 charge source for the house and starter (very common in small sailboats and power boats), then I'd put the charge source on the house battery. Of course, both house and start would have to be of the same chemistry.

 

[HangOutdoors]

@marcham Right now my house is a NorthStar TPPL and my starter is the stock battery that came with it. So they aren't.

 

[FSH 210 Sport]

Question for those with a factory installed BEP VSR: The D-VSR has an extra red wire. I'm curious if Yamaha hooks up the red wire to the ignition circuit? That would make the VSR active only with the ignition ON. The Blue Sea doesn't have this, they only have a start isolation (keep start and house battery separate while cranking the starter), which prevents voltage spikes/sags from reaching the electronics hooked up to the house battery.

@HangOutdoors if you use only 1 charge source for the house and starter (very common in small sailboats and power boats), then I'd put the charge source on the house battery. Of course, both house and start would have to be of the same chemistry.

Hi Marcham,

The OEM BEP DVSR red wire is as it appears in the drawing in the boat, it is looped. So, when the start battery comes up to the close voltage, the VSR closes and then starts charging the house battery. In my experience so far, this happens pretty quickly and the house battery starts charging... I’m actually working on my boat right now so I will double check.

 

[SCP1]

New to the dual battery setup. I'm assuming if I have the switches off I can charge one battery at a time correct? Also both batteries charge when the boat is on, as the parallel is only for an emergency start correct?

 

[FSH 210 Sport]

New to the dual battery setup. I'm assuming if I have the switches off I can charge one battery at a time correct? Also both batteries charge when the boat is on, as the parallel is only for an emergency start correct?

Hey SCP1,

If using the OEM Yamaha BEP brand of battery switch with DVSR (digital voltage sensing relay) it works like this.

With both the Start and House battery switches in the on position, when the engines are started all charging output goes to the start battery until the start battery voltage reaches 13.2 volts. At 13.2 volts the VSR relay closes and parallels the start and house batteries and the house battery begins charging. The start and house batteries stay paralleled via the VSR relay until the voltage on the paralleled batteries drops to 12.7 volts, engine(s) off, at which time the VSR opens and isolates the start and house battery.

There is an emergency paralleling switch that allows the start and house batteries to be paralleled manually in the situation where the start battery may need a boost from the house battery to get the engines started. Once the batteries have charged for a while, the emergency parallel switch is opened and all charging current will go to the recovering start battery until the voltage reaches 13.2 volts at which time VSR closes and parallels the batteries.

To your question “I'm assuming if I have the switches off I can charge one battery at a time correct?”. As long as the start battery voltage is 13.2 volts or higher the start and house batteries are paralleled via the VSR, even with the battery switches off. Unless you wire the VSR using the optional wiring method of separating the red wire (feed to the VSR) and run it to the ignition switch (See diagram below). Wired that way, the start and house batteries are isolated whenever the ignition switch is in the off position. In this optional configuration each battery can be charged independently while the ignition switch is off. There is also a provision to wire a remote VSR status light to let you know the VSR is closed.

I will say that I have my OEM switch set up in the stock configuration, with an onboard MinnKota PC 220 two bank charger, my observation is that with the battery switches in the off or on position, engines off, and the onboard battery charger plugged in, the VSR is closed (red indicator light on) and I can see on the MinnKota charger display that start battery finishes charging first and goes to flashing green, while the house battery is still charging-this is the same physics as when the engine is running and charges the start battery first then all charging current goes to the house battery. Does that make sense?

With the VSR wired in the stock configuration and I’m floating with the engines off, fish finder running, live well running, the batteries stay paralleled until the voltage drops to 12.7 volts, the VSR opens and all electrical load is now on the house battery and stays that way until I start the engines and the voltage climbs to 13.2 volts and then the VSR closes again. After several hundred hours of usage I’m happy with the stock/fully automatic operation of the BEP VSR set up.

 

[212s]

@FSH 210 Sport Very helpful...but I have to question one part - I'm not sure the DVSR is that smart. From what I've observed when a charging voltage is detected, the DVSR combines both batteries and charges them as one "bank". I don't think the DVSR is smart enough to divert charging current to the Start first, then the House, and does not disconnect until some 20 seconds after the charging voltage is dropped even when both batteries are fully charged. I know when cruising around and both batteries are full, if I look at the DVSR the LED is still on as long as the engines are running. I can check it with a multi-meter to confirm voltage levels this spring. It would be nice if it was that smart, but I think it's just a dumb relay that charges both at once until charging stops.

 

[FSH 210 Sport]

@FSH 210 Sport Very helpful...but I have to question one part - I'm not sure the DVSR is that smart. From what I've observed when a charging voltage is detected, the DVSR combines both batteries and charges them as one "bank". I don't think the DVSR is smart enough to divert charging current to the Start first, then the House, and does not disconnect until some 20 seconds after the charging voltage is dropped even when both batteries are fully charged. I know when cruising around and both batteries are full, if I look at the DVSR the LED is still on as long as the engines are running. I can check it with a multi-meter to confirm voltage levels this spring. It would be nice if it was that smart, but I think it's just a dumb relay that charges both at once until charging stops.

Hey 212s!

Thanks for posting!

The DVSR relay is only looking at the voltage on the start battery, when it reaches 13.2 volts the DVSR relay closes and remains closed until the start battery drops to 12.7 volts. So under normal circumstances, your start battery is fully charged say 12.6 volts, and when you start an engine or engines, the voltage recovers very quickly to the 13.2 volt threshold and the DVSR closes. If the start battery was low on charge say in the 11.5 volt range, even with both engines running it will take longer for the start battery’s voltage to reach the 13.2 volt closing threshold.

I can tell you that the red LED on the DVSR is pretty much on when ever the start battery has had 13.2 volts and is still above the 12.7 volt cut off. Another thing the DVSR does is when you engage the starter and the voltage drops below 12.7 volts while the engine is cranking the DVSR opens and isolates the house battery loads from the transient voltages during engine start. So you are right, its not that smart, but it has one job and only lets the start and house be paralleled when the voltage is in the .5 volt range, and that range is well within the operating envelope of the boats electronics.

The charging is a matter of electrical theory and physics, or potential difference. When the voltage between the alternator output and battery is different, the charging current flows there, as well as to the engine‘s operating loads-ECU/fuel pump/ injectors. The greater the voltage difference, the greater the electron flow into that battery. As the battery voltage rises the electron flow slows down to that battery, and the regulator/rectifier(s) on the alternator(s) pulls back on the voltage output as their difference comes closer together. As far as I can tell from the single line drawings, it appears that the alternators on our boats are a three phase AC alternator with a full wave regulator / rectifier. Very similar to other power sport charging systems. The rectifier converts the AC voltage to DC voltage, and the regulator controls the voltage level.

Simply put the electrons flow towards an empty bucket so to speak. When the start battery’s bucket is full enough the DVSR relay closes and since the house battery‘s bucket is lower than the start battery’s, the electrons will flow towards the empty bucket.

So you are correct that the batteries are being charged as one bank once the start battery has recovered to the set point of the DVSR relay. And like any modern automatic battery charger, the alternators back off on the charge to keep the batteries from over gassing / boiling the electrolyte. Typically, most charging systems will charge hard up to 70-80% of the batteries capacity, then back down for the final 30-20% of charge.

Now, if you were to hook up the DVSR to the ignition switch, with the switch on once the start battery reaches 13.2 volts it would close and parallel the start and house batteries. But when you turn the ignition switch off the DVSR would drop out immediately, isolating the two batteries.

Does that make sense? Hopefully I didn’t muddy the water..

 

[212s]

The DVSR relay is only looking at the voltage on the start battery, when it reaches 13.2 volts the DVSR relay closes and remains closed until the start battery drops to 12.7 volts. So under normal circumstances, your start battery is fully charged say 12.6 volts, and when you start an engine or engines, the voltage recovers very quickly to the 13.2 volt threshold and the DVSR closes. If the start battery was low on charge say in the 11.5 volt range, even with both engines running it will take longer for the start battery’s voltage to reach the 13.2 volt closing threshold.

I understand the electrical theory (father was an EE) and I know both house and start will equalize when charging from a single source - that's why I changed to a single bank charger. But from what I've observed, my DVSR doesn't follow those rules - could be wired wrong. I'll have to check the wiring and measure voltages to confirm. I hope it works like that, but I have to verify for myself - yup I don't trust others to wire things right.

 

[FSH 210 Sport]

You are smart not trusting others when it comes to electricity! Please let us know what your measurements reveal.

Do you have the OEM BEP battery switch / DVSR?