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2016 240 Ballast Setup Question: Valves?

COtoFLsurf

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@swatski , great stuff, two questions: 1) where did you install the EPA canister?, 2) you have a picture showing both pumps, does the port-side hose have a direct path to the other side or did you need to take it thru the engine compartment?
 

swatski

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@swatski , great stuff, two questions: 1) where did you install the EPA canister?, 2) you have a picture showing both pumps, does the port-side hose have a direct path to the other side or did you need to take it thru the engine compartment?
1) I remounted it inside the gunwale, I piggybacked off of one of the longer bolts, used some foam for padding, and kept the hoses as strait as I could - I think it is better than it was and works very well, I can feel the air/fumes blowing out the valve (in the hull) when fueling up.
2) My port side pumps fill center locker and port side rear compartment, the strbd side pumps fill rear stbd and auxiliary hose/valve.
Here are my port side pumps - these are pics from when it was a work in progress, it's all finished now with timers and all.
upload_2017-7-18_20-31-11.png
upload_2017-7-18_20-31-42.png

If I were to do it again, I would choose the exact same location for the pumps. It is perfect.
Those pumps are suspended up and don't take all that much space, mostly dead space anyway. I still fit whatever wet ropes and vests I want in there at the end.

Frankly, I can not believe Yamaha did not think of this. WakeMakers know their stuff and I got a lot of very good advice. I find that any and all devices in the engine compartment get really hot at the end of the day, my pumps stay nice and cool.

I also did not want to run the hoses through the engine bay - I have moved the batteries and ran center locker hose through the fuel tank compartment. Fairly strait forward, but it is some work.

Few weeks ago we had a couple of surf friends on our boat and they were in complete disbelieve when I was filling or emptying those 800lbs bags in about 6min without leaving my captain's chair. They have a 230 SuperAir Nautique.

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COtoFLsurf

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@swatski, love the pump location, need to poke around a bit since I have shower tank on starboard side. Curious, how did you get electrical to that location (thru the hose holes?). Much appreciated !!!
 

swatski

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@swatski, love the pump location, need to poke around a bit since I have shower tank on starboard side. Curious, how did you get electrical to that location (thru the hose holes?). Much appreciated !!!
I went with the Wakemakers full setup with their harnesses - run through separate holes and loomed (where passing through the dividers in bulkheads). Those harnesses are expensive but make everything a snap - you can also easily disconnect switches and pumps for maintenance, non-surfing trips etc.

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COtoFLsurf

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@swatski , cool thanks, makes perfect sense, right up to the "non-surfing trips" part which totally baffled me. ;-)
 

swatski

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@swatski , cool thanks, makes perfect sense, right up to the "non-surfing trips" part which totally baffled me. ;-)
Yes sir. For example, I had all my bags and timers removed and the pumps/switches disconnected for the Bimini trip this year for extra space and peace of mind - to prevent accidental activation in inclement weather etc. which actually happened to one of the 212Xs during past crossings (not good).

The bottom line: plug-and-play is the way to go with WM systems, IMO. SO worth it.

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John Mcpartland

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So after having it all summer, how did it work? Im am looking at doing the exact same as you did on this setup. I already have 2 750lb fatsac and the 1180 fatsac for the locker. Did you end up adding the vents or just keep it as it is. Or is there anything you would have do e different? Thanks
John
 

swatski

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So after having it all summer, how did it work? Im am looking at doing the exact same as you did on this setup. I already have 2 750lb fatsac and the 1180 fatsac for the locker. Did you end up adding the vents or just keep it as it is. Or is there anything you would have do e different? Thanks
John
I'm pretty happy with how the system turned out, don't know what if anything would change if doing it all over again. It would be hard to improve upon (no brag). The only thing which is still a work in progress is the Auxiliary port and extra bags' placement - swim deck, rear seats - still trying to dial it in a bit more.
Key features:
Four (4) Wake Makers' branded Johnsons, mounted inside the wet storage compartments.
No valves. Four independent intakes/drains. Everything 1" (but the pumps).


Here I'm reposting some critical project info more from another thread where I responded to someone:

"I considered and even purchased shutoff valves. Decided not to use them once I mocked everything as I convinced myself those would increase the risk of failure (apart from slowing the flow, too!) as those are very heavy and could easily rip out of the thin hull in rough water. Basically, the new Yamaha FRP hull is so thin I would not want to mount those heavy valves on the intakes/drains without significant reinforcements - no way! Would either need to use plastic valves/intakes or build reinforcements.

Besides, the reversible Johnson pumps work extremely well as valves.

Drilling holes in the hull is easy - it is just "skin", there is not core in those hulls.
I used SS intakes and planned the install very carefully - I mocked the size of the openings in plywood to make sure everything fits. Mounting those through hulls is pretty nerve wrecking.

Here is the "end result" - it is a very solid install, and I believe a better solution in these hulls - I have just short strait up (WM hose) runs up to the pumps in wet comps:


After I let these cure for few days:


Mock EVRYTHING!


I wanted a nice and tight fit (bottom):


Too tight:


Dry run set-up:



And then the least favorite part... 3M 5200.
I used an improvised tool to be able to have my trusty 16yo helper hold the drain in place from the outside/bottom while I install the nut and tighten it inside the hull - that was the worst part, and having done a dry-run was very important - before dispensing of the 5200!







The end results were very good. I can not imagine those failing, and when I look at other OEM through-hull fittings I laugh (and ended up redoing several, the factory craftsmanship there is just pathetic... or lacking)


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swatski

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swatski

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If adding a bag and a pump circuit I would seriously consider a WM kit. I know, those are ridiculously overpriced wire w/ Deutsch connectors, an electronics hobbyist could put it together for 1/10 the price but in reality for me it was so worth it. Being able to mock everything and put it together without worrying about starting an electric fire was a big motivator to shell out some $$$.
Here is one pump circuit assembled - just the electric harnesses mocked with the timer, pump and and switch - super simple...


Until you start putting it all together in the boat, your forearms encrusted w/fiberglass... Having it modular and pre-assembled really added a safety factor for me:


I ended up manufacturing my own mini-distribution blocks for easy access:


Having those all routed and labelled for easy access in the helm lets me disconnect/reconnect the pumps when not needed - for example, when going to Bimini I did not want to think about accidentally activating a pump in the middle of Florida Strait, LOL, etc.:


I ended up with three ballast switches in the helm - right under the RideSteady controller - for my center locker and two rear 800lbs each bags, the forth switch for aux pump lives in the wet compartment, I have it mounted on a 10' cable w/wand for now until I decide on a permanent fixed location:


Here is the Aux ballast port - the idea stolen from @jcyamaharider - with a quick connector, plumbed to one of four pumps in the wet compartments underneath. That space is a remnant of where the stern light mount used to be (for anchor light - which is on the tower):


Here is the temporary "wand" with the Aux switch - still haven't decided where to mount it, need to know the best locations for Aux bags first, so that is still open (the hose going up connects to the Aux port w/quick connector):


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swatski

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Oh - and regarding vents - I was planning on maybe adding those but so far really like the system without the vents. It lets me fill the bags to capacity as they squeeze into the compartments and I can also suck the bags completely dry - which is great!

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John Mcpartland

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Oh - and regarding vents - I was planning on maybe adding those but so far really like the system without the vents. It lets me fill the bags to capacity as they squeeze into the compartments and I can also suck the bags completely dry - which is great!

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Awsome!! Thanks for the info, im about to get 3 of the WM kits with the venting. I was thinking of venting in the back lockers by the pumps
 

swatski

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Awsome!! Thanks for the info, im about to get 3 of the WM kits with the venting. I was thinking of venting in the back lockers by the pumps
Just make sure you place the vents the opposite (side of the hull) to ballast, otherwise there may be issues with siphoning and draining with the boat listed, it can be very annoying.

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John Mcpartland

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Oh - and regarding vents - I was planning on maybe adding those but so far really like the system without the vents. It lets me fill the bags to capacity as they squeeze into the compartments and I can also suck the bags completely dry - which is great!

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I didn't think of the pressure. Makes sense that they would only fill up to a certain point then the vents would let the water out and not fill to full capacity
 

nate kennedy

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@swatski where did you get your thru hulls? I don’t recall seeing those on wakmakers website? I think I saw it or one that looks similar but says in the description suitable for vent or drain above the water line.

Thanks
 

swatski

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@swatski where did you get your thru hulls? I don’t recall seeing those on wakmakers website? I think I saw it or one that looks similar but says in the description suitable for vent or drain above the water line.

Thanks
I think that's it - what you found, but let me look it up and I will post later to confirm what exactly did I use, keep in mind I chose NOT to use the bronze intakes and valves - I didn't really see the point. My intakes are still the most solid through-hull fixtures in my boat, hehe! (- if you know what I mean, sadly, LOL). Price difference was not an issue, I just wanted to keep the ID as large as possible and worried about structural issues (due to bronze intake/valve weight).
If you go with bronze intakes/valves (and want to keep the ID even close to 1") IMO you will need to reinforce the hull. The FRP is just way too thin and too brittle to support those heavy valves with a small surface support the intake's flange provides. If you must have a valve at the intake (mine are inside the pumps, up in wet storage) - I would go with the plastic ones that Yamaha also uses - I'll try to find the part, it's listed in parts fiches for X models.

Also, keep in mind my system survived a Bimini trip, and it was a rough one last year. I also regularly boat in pretty rough water on the river. Going on one year - with zero concerns about those intakes and their structural integrity (with large heavy valves I would be freaking out). It's a better way to do it, I think (KISS).

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Mainah

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@swatski I have hemmed and hawed about how to do my own ballast system. I have decided that keeping it simple will be best. I am going to copy your intakes. I will likley mount the johnson pumps in the engine compartment so things in wet storage don’t get hung up in the pumps. I am going to use simple 3 state rocker switches and wire them all up myself. I will power those switches from my helm distribution block to a blue seas sub panel. No automation or timers whatsoever. So now to my question.

I like the no vent idea for the benefits you have pointed out but my concern is that without timers that I could blow out a bag. Do you think I run an undue risk of blowing out a bag without timers?
 

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@Mainah If you don't use a vent on the ballast bags or use timers for the pumps then yes you'll basically need to eyeball the bags as they fill or else you'll eventually burn out a pump(s) or overfill a bag(s). This isn't ideal as you'll have to ask people to get up so you can watch the bags fill. Personally if I were you and not wanting to do timers I would do still do vents and just watch or listen for them to begin overflow so you know when the bags are full and then you can shut off the pumps.
 

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@Mainah If you don't use a vent on the ballast bags or use timers for the pumps then yes you'll basically need to eyeball the bags as they fill or else you'll eventually burn out a pump(s) or overfill a bag(s). This isn't ideal as you'll have to ask people to get up so you can watch the bags fill. Personally if I were you and not wanting to do timers I would do still do vents and just watch or listen for them to begin overflow so you know when the bags are full and then you can shut off the pumps.
Good points. With vents it is going to be easy to tell when full. What about when emptying (out the intake), is the sound of the bag sucking dry obvious?
 

swatski

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@swatski I have hemmed and hawed about how to do my own ballast system. I have decided that keeping it simple will be best. I am going to copy your intakes. I will likley mount the johnson pumps in the engine compartment so things in wet storage don’t get hung up in the pumps. I am going to use simple 3 state rocker switches and wire them all up myself. I will power those switches from my helm distribution block to a blue seas sub panel. No automation or timers whatsoever. So now to my question.

I like the no vent idea for the benefits you have pointed out but my concern is that without timers that I could blow out a bag. Do you think I run an undue risk of blowing out a bag without timers?
I wholeheartedly agree with your ideas about using simple intakes and simple switches! Definitely way to go, many newer wake boats seem to gravitate back to those simplistic solutions too (over silly split screens), for good reasons.

About vents - IDK. I ended up not installing any, and neither does the factory system I think, but I left myself open to it. So far I have not seen the need - there is always enough commotion on my boat when we get "ready" so keeping an eye on the bags does not seem to add any significant inconvenience. Timers help, too, but I would not want to rely on those completely. With the vents mounted I would still probably be watching (and getting pissed the bags not filling right! LOL). Vents require valves, and valves go bad all the time. (so far - I don't have any valves - my only valves are the pump impellers).
I'm not sure exactly how much extra ballast I can squeeze in due to not having vents (and being able to pressurize and straighten the bags to fill the spaces) - but I think it is substantial.

I have also learned that vents are actually very tricky to do right. Most vented systems I have seen have had some quirks that would drive me crazy.

The sound of the pumps sucking air/vacuum (when the bags get empty) is very distinct so no worries there, and these pumps are loud.

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