405,000 miles / I guess I'm happy with it, but not this post

[Scottintexas]

My 1998 Avalon hit 400k in November, I should have updated my original post but past on it,
https://jetboaters.net/threads/333-333-miles-edit-made-it-to-350-k.1845/
It was still my daily driver.

The last few weeks we've had some 20 degree weather overnight, in the morning I would hear a tick that I chalked up to a cold engine and thick oil as the sound would go away once it warmed up.

This morning took my wife out for breakfast. The car died just out of the driveway, restarted easily and died again at the next stop light. I was thinking bad fuel or just cold weather gremlins or mice chewing on the cables interrupting the spark as it sounded ok.

We made it about 5 miles to the restaurant where it died and didn't want to restarted, it didn't even sound like the high wind of the starter but a weak spin. It started after two tries and we started back home, about half way heard a loud clunk/grind and immediately lost power.

It appears my timing belt pulley on the cam shaft broke off. It looks like the actual cam might have sheared in half ??

This picture is from away, you can see the pulley has shifted rear (and torn the plastic housing)



This is a close up of the shaft area


I've never seen a cam shaft or replaced a timing belt. Does this look like the cam shaft sheared or did the pulley just rip off ?

@buckbuck @veedubtek @gmtech16450yz @betterwhenitswetter @zipper

 

[zipper]

@Scottintexas That looks like a torsional shear of the end of the cam shaft. It depends if that engine is an "interference" or a "clearance" one. What I mean is when the cam stopped turning, valves would be left open making them prone to be struck by a piston if it an interference design, bending valve stems. My non stock 83 VW GTI has one of those designs and that happened to me when a timing belt broke at a very high rpm years ago. I had to rebuild the head. While I had the engine apart I put in higher compression oversized pistons also. I do not know that your Avalon would be similar. On your various starting attempt, Did you notice a rough running engine, like timing belt slipped a notch or any backfire. Any warning lights or messages prior? It is possible that there was a flaw in the casting or forging of the camshaft and it decided to let go at 400k miles. But my GUESS is something else caused this. What does the cam sprocket and mounting bolt look like? Could it have been loose? If not, the cam stopped suddenly while the crank was still turning bending a valve stem sticking a lifter, I assume they are hydraulic not solid, and hanging up a lobe or two on the cam. You won't know until the head is pulled. You could pull the cam, closing all the valves if undamaged, and do a pressure/leak down check on the head. But that does look sheared. Maybe the two techs you tagged will have more or better info as they have more experience. For the pressure check I have a fitting that screws into the spark plug hole and has a quick connect for a air hose on the other end, I use it to hold the valves closed while changing valve springs. It sucks that happened, but you got 400k miles out of her.

 

[veedubtek]

Dang! If you're gonna break it, do it right!

Cam is definitely broken. Taken all other evidence into account, I'm guessing you lost oil pressure, seized a cam bearing, and sheared the sprocket/cam snout right off. Not good, and not worth repairing if my guess is anywhere near accurate.

 

[bronze_10]

400k? Its gonna be like saying good bye to an oil friend!

 

[Peelz]

405,000 before major engine repair, fully acceptable. lol

Toyotas do that sometimes.... WAY back(1996) when i was still a detail boy at a dealer... we had a customer who used his 94 ish T-100(tundra) for long range deliveries. he had 300k on it in under 3 years. Only brought it in for suspension work. I saw it not long ago, still running. His son driving it. rusted to swiss cheese almost, but not dead.

in your photo, it almost looks like the housing cracked around the cam too? that might be a deal breaker.... not sure how difficult the cam itself is on those engines.


Avalon was one of the most comfortable cars Ive ever ridden in. Don't be too sad, I know how you feel. Like @bronze_10 said... saying goodbye to an old friend. felt that way when my frontier had to go. Trans went at 175k plus i had to admit the regular cab didn't work with two growing boys.

 

[Beachbummer]

Junked Engine swap may be an economical way to keep running if you are very attached. Sorry for your loss.

 

[Betik]

just in time the new avalon. I bet you drive this 500K miles


https://www.caranddriver.com/news/2019-toyota-avalon-photos-and-info-news

 

[veedubtek]

For the record, if you're inclined to repair, and somewhat of a DIY'er - sometimes (alot of times) it's way cheaper to buy a wrecked car off something like copart.com. You can typically obtain a running/kinda driveable wreck with lower miles to rob your engine (and lots of other goodies) out of and come out way ahead of buying a used engine from a salvage yard or ebay.

 

[Jgorm]

Copart had lots of restrictions here in ca. You neeed to hire a licensed dismantle shop to bid for you. Competition can be intense with people bidding from across the world. Even after it closes it goes into after bidding.

 

[Peelz]

@Scottintexas That looks like a torsional shear of the end of the cam shaft. It depends if that engine is an "interference" or a "clearance" one. What I mean is when the cam stopped turning, valves would be left open making them prone to be struck by a piston if it an interference design, bending valve stems. My non stock 83 VW GTI has one of those designs and that happened to me when a timing belt broke at a very high rpm years ago. I had to rebuild the head. While I had the engine apart I put in higher compression oversized pistons also. I do not know that your Avalon would be similar. On your various starting attempt, Did you notice a rough running engine, like timing belt slipped a notch or any backfire. Any warning lights or messages prior? It is possible that there was a flaw in the casting or forging of the camshaft and it decided to let go at 400k miles. But my GUESS is something else caused this. What does the cam sprocket and mounting bolt look like? Could it have been loose? If not, the cam stopped suddenly while the crank was still turning bending a valve stem sticking a lifter, I assume they are hydraulic not solid, and hanging up a lobe or two on the cam. You won't know until the head is pulled. You could pull the cam, closing all the valves if undamaged, and do a pressure/leak down check on the head. But that does look sheared. Maybe the two techs you tagged will have more or better info as they have more experience. For the pressure check I have a fitting that screws into the spark plug hole and has a quick connect for a air hose on the other end, I use it to hold the valves closed while changing valve springs. It sucks that happened, but you got 400k miles out of her.

Missed this earlier... all that.... thumbs up. I remember when I learned about it...

I had a 1988 pontiac lemans. (european design) 1.6 engine had ZERO interference. dropped a timing belt like 4 times I owned it lol the last time, I had a spare. 20 minute repair in a campground parking lot. HAHA

 

[Scottintexas]

Thanks everybody for the replies;
No other indicators of a problem other than the slight knock/rough idle that would smooth out after it warmed up.
It has been using about a quart of oil every 3k miles and at the time it broke the oil level was about half way on the stick,

My expensive mechanic ball parked $4k to swap a low mileage engine in.
My trusted one man shop is on vacation for 2 weeks and he seemed to think it was "fixable" via text messages so I'll wait until he returns as he's very fair with his parts/labor.
Toyota nation advised it was a non-interference engine and possibly might only need new head, time will tell,

Thanks again,

 

[Neutron]

Thanks everybody for the replies;
No other indicators of a problem other than the slight knock/rough idle that would smooth out after it warmed up.
It has been using about a quart of oil every 3k miles and at the time it broke the oil level was about half way on the stick,

My expensive mechanic ball parked $4k to swap a low mileage engine in.
My trusted one man shop is on vacation for 2 weeks and he seemed to think it was "fixable" via text messages so I'll wait until he returns as he's very fair with his parts/labor.
Toyota nation advised it was a non-interference engine and possibly might only need new head, time will tell,

Thanks again,

I am a Toyota tech and can say without a doubt that the valves are ok.
Even so, Considering you are burning oil, i would replace the engine with a good used one.
I have never seen a camshaft snap on a toyota ever. And it looks to have some damage to the face of the head.
Even if the cam seized the belt would have stripped before it would snap the gear off.
The tensioner would have released enough to pop the belt
If the rest of the car is good and the transmission is sound, fix it it will last a long time.
You wouldn't believe the mileage these yotas get
4 grand is way to much. If ya lived closer i would do it for 500 bucks plus the engine. Lol

 

[veedubtek]

Even if the cam seized the belt would have stripped before it would snap the gear off.

You'd be surprised. I've seen it more than a handful of times over the last 20 years or so. Always snaps the sprocket right off at the snout, exactly as pictured above. Granted, I do VW/Audi, not Toyota, but I certainly wouldn't rule it out on any make.

There again, not much surprises me any more. Had this in a couple months ago - cam snapped in 4 pieces-

 

[Neutron]

You'd be surprised. I've seen it more than a handful of times over the last 20 years or so. Always snaps the sprocket right off at the snout, exactly as pictured above. Granted, I do VW/Audi, not Toyota, but I certainly wouldn't rule it out on any make.

There again, not much surprises me any more. Had this in a couple months ago - cam snapped in 4 pieces-

View attachment 67774

Thats uuugggggly!

 

[bronze_10]

You'd be surprised. I've seen it more than a handful of times over the last 20 years or so. Always snaps the sprocket right off at the snout, exactly as pictured above. Granted, I do VW/Audi, not Toyota, but I certainly wouldn't rule it out on any make.

There again, not much surprises me any more. Had this in a couple months ago - cam snapped in 4 pieces-

View attachment 67774

Well theres your problem!

 

[Peelz]

You'd be surprised. I've seen it more than a handful of times over the last 20 years or so. Always snaps the sprocket right off at the snout, exactly as pictured above. Granted, I do VW/Audi, not Toyota, but I certainly wouldn't rule it out on any make.

There again, not much surprises me any more. Had this in a couple months ago - cam snapped in 4 pieces-

View attachment 67774

zip tie that back in and run it!

 

[zipper]

You'd be surprised. I've seen it more than a handful of times over the last 20 years or so. Always snaps the sprocket right off at the snout, exactly as pictured above. Granted, I do VW/Audi, not Toyota, but I certainly wouldn't rule it out on any make.

There again, not much surprises me any more. Had this in a couple months ago - cam snapped in 4 pieces-

View attachment 67774

Looks like a diesel. How many miles?

 

[Neutron]

zip tie that back in and run it!

I was thinking JB weld should do the trick

 

[veedubtek]

Looks like a diesel. How many miles?

Indeed. Just a baby though, 242K. Strange occurrence for one of them old TD's.

 

[Peelz]

Indeed. Just a baby though, 242K. Strange occurrence for one of them old TD's.

242k is just broken in for an 80's rabbit diesel LOL

My experience is that they will corrode into powder around the still running drivetrain.