Bimini 2018

[robert843]

How many boats are going this time?

@Amar Nanduri is correct I expect 50-70 total boats register for the crossings this year. I know there are two trips being worked on one probably around the second week of July (that is just a guess I have no clue or info) and one sometime in June so it will be split up a bit. I expect the July crossing will be the main group crossing though.

 

[Mainah]

I did post my thoughts a few days ago in this thread and even so I find that I am struggling with a decision that is much debated although perhaps with a difference over others. The decision is ultimately my own but feel I want more input. I am primarily a lake boater on a single very well trafficked lake that has full cell phone coverage and houses all along the lake. I currently have two handheld vhf radios, one being an older simple one, and one being a newer GPS/DSC (hx870). I also have a PLB which I think is a major difference in this quandary. So my struggle is wether to install a fixed VHF for a group Bimini trip as insurance for mechanical type issues. For about $300.00 I can get a great radio (gx 1700), antenna, and mount for my tower. What is holding me back is why spend the money, time, helm space, and future maintenance time if not really needed. Obviously a fixed VHF with 4ft antenna near the top of the sports tower will have a coverage area that is exponential over that of a handheld. In a true survival situation the PLB puts that to shame though and I could always sit on the tower with the handheld to get more range if just a mechanical issue. At this point in time I am leaning towards doing the trip with just what I already have.

So if you were a lake boater and already had a great handheld VHF, a backup handheld VHF, and a PLB would you spend the time and money to install a fixed VHF just for a group Bimini trip? If your answer is yes than for similar money and a lot less effort why not just buy a Garmin in reach for two way communication instead which would allow you communicate with folks that have a lot more emotional investment in you?

Thoughts?

 

[Andy S]

I did post my thoughts a few days ago in this thread and even so I find that I am struggling with a decision that is much debated although perhaps with a difference over others. The decision is ultimately my own but feel I want more input. I am primarily a lake boater on a single very well trafficked lake that has full cell phone coverage and houses all along the lake. I currently have two handheld vhf radios, one being an older simple one, and one being a newer GPS/DSC (hx870). I also have a PLB which I think is a major difference in this quandary. So my struggle is wether to install a fixed VHF for a group Bimini trip as insurance for mechanical type issues. For about $300.00 I can get a great radio (gx 1700), antenna, and mount for my tower. What is holding me back is why spend the money, time, helm space, and future maintenance time if not really needed. Obviously a fixed VHF with 4ft antenna near the top of the sports tower will have a coverage area that is exponential over that of a handheld. In a true survival situation the PLB puts that to shame though and I could always sit on the tower with the handheld to get more range if just a mechanical issue. At this point in time I am leaning towards doing the trip with just what I already have.

So if you were a lake boater and already had a great handheld VHF, a backup handheld VHF, and a PLB would you spend the time and money to install a fixed VHF just for a group Bimini trip? If your answer is yes than for similar money and a lot less effort why not just buy a Garmin in reach for two way communication instead which would allow you communicate with folks that have a lot more emotional investment in you?

Thoughts?

Going with a group I say no but that is my opinion, you have to do what makes you and your family comfortable. Like @Ramblin Wreck mentioned, I really like the idea of besides breaking the big groups into smaller groups, then within the smaller groups break into buddy pairs or triples to watch over each other. This will allow for closer contact over each other in a group, limiting the chances of you being out there by yourself. Being separated from the group and by yourself is to me the major reason for a one time a year use of a fix mounted vhf addition to the boat. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Mainah]

Going with a group I say no but that is my opinion, you have to do what makes you and your family comfortable. Like @Ramblin Wreck mentioned, I really like the idea of besides breaking the big groups into smaller groups, then within the smaller groups break into buddy pairs or triples to watch over each other. This will allow for closer contact over each other in a group, limiting the chances of you being out there by yourself. Being separated from the group and by yourself is to me the major reason for a one time a year use of a fix mounted vhf addition to the boat. Just my 2 cents.

You bring up a good point that I am finding difficult to understand having not been on the trip. How does one become separated from the group? Is not the purpose of a group to ensure the the group stays together for safety? If one boat is stranded for some reason and the group must continue why would they do so before they know that aid is there or at the very least on the way? Lets say somehow one does get separated. If a mechanical issue is the reason someone got separated did they not attempt to communicate soon enough AND the group left them low and wet. If the reason someone got separated is because they wanted to go slow for comfort or fast because they are impatient then that is on them.

I have not been on this trip so I am truly am not judging. If getting separated is somewhat common for whatever the reason then I can see the wisdom of installing a fixed VHF even given my parameter of having a PLB. This has also gotten me considering the simple etiquette of it as well. While I have to look out for my ship and crew if I expect others to help me I should also be prepared to help them, and I am better able to do so if I can hear them. So here I am again waffling but getting closer so what will shift it the other way. Is getting separated either during the crossings or over the course of the week even somewhat common?

 

[tim h]

Spend the $300 for the fixed mount.
You may be more comfortable going on an excursion alone while in Bimini with it installed.

 

[Amar Nanduri]

You bring up a good point that I am finding difficult to understand having not been on the trip. How does one become separated from the group? Is not the purpose of a group to ensure the the group stays together for safety? If one boat is stranded for some reason and the group must continue why would they do so before they know that aid is there or at the very least on the way? Lets say somehow one does get separated. If a mechanical issue is the reason someone got separated did they not attempt to communicate soon enough AND the group left them low and wet. If the reason someone got separated is because they wanted to go slow for comfort or fast because they are impatient then that is on them.

I have not been on this trip so I am truly am not judging. If getting separated is somewhat common for whatever the reason then I can see the wisdom of installing a fixed VHF even given my parameter of having a PLB. This has also gotten me considering the simple etiquette of it as well. While I have to look out for my ship and crew if I expect others to help me I should also be prepared to help them, and I am better able to do so if I can hear them. So here I am again waffling but getting closer so what will shift it the other way. Is getting separated either during the crossings or over the course of the week even somewhat common?

I got separated from my group in 2017 when the storm hit. The next 10-15 minutes I was fighting the storm in zero visibility (making sure the engines are running and I am moving forward) and it felt like an eternity. After the storm cleared I was by myself and not a boat in sight. I could not raise anyone on my vhf. I found out that i drifted off course quite a bit (novice in navigation. I learnt my lesson that in zero visibility always focus on the gps and if possible use a compass). I corrected my course and decided to proceed forward. Took me around 20 minutes to find some wake in the distance and I raced after it and found 3 yamahas and a chaparral.

So it is entirely possible that when shit hits the fan, its every boat for itself and all this powerful equipment would come in handy.

My disclaimer is that I am wet behind the ears as far as navigation in the seas is concerned, having started boating only one season back in 2016. So I believe it is entirely my fault for not being in the group.

 

[DieselCamel]

You bring up a good point that I am finding difficult to understand having not been on the trip. How does one become separated from the group? Is not the purpose of a group to ensure the the group stays together for safety? If one boat is stranded for some reason and the group must continue why would they do so before they know that aid is there or at the very least on the way? Lets say somehow one does get separated. If a mechanical issue is the reason someone got separated did they not attempt to communicate soon enough AND the group left them low and wet. If the reason someone got separated is because they wanted to go slow for comfort or fast because they are impatient then that is on them.

I have not been on this trip so I am truly am not judging. If getting separated is somewhat common for whatever the reason then I can see the wisdom of installing a fixed VHF even given my parameter of having a PLB. This has also gotten me considering the simple etiquette of it as well. While I have to look out for my ship and crew if I expect others to help me I should also be prepared to help them, and I am better able to do so if I can hear them. So here I am again waffling but getting closer so what will shift it the other way. Is getting separated either during the crossings or over the course of the week even somewhat common?

people are more likely to have issues it’s the wave forecast is up. In a jet boat with the low freeboard You really take a chance if you come off plane. Taking water over the bow or side. Rocking side to side will definitely become Uncomfortable quick. So boat visibility will greatly be reduced in the high high waves. Really easy to lose track of a boat less than 1/4 mile away. IMO Fixed, Handheld and some kind of PLB, inReach, etc. safety equipment is part of boating. You greatly increase you chances of getting help if all bases are covered. Shit happens as we know from last year.

 

[newbote]

Fixed VHF with an 8 ft antenna can be had for much less then 300 bucks. Here is the best deal I have found - its a pkg with a cobra DSC VHF with mount and 8 ft antenna. I bought this over the holidays and delivered with a coupon I had was 140 bucks. If you can install yourself this is a pretty economical option. I actually had this exact VHF when I had a saltwater boat and lived on the coast and it worked great. I could communicate with other boats 20 miles away - and my antenna was mounted like it is mounted on my Yamaha. I am installing the antenna - just below the windshield on the starboard side.

I wouldn't spend more then this for a name brand VHF as the range you will get is more dependent on the height of the antenna. It would be better to mount on a tower to get it higher and spend your money doing that vs buying a more expensive VHF.

https://www.overtons.com/modperl/pr...F-Radio-Package-With-8-Antenna-Mount&i=347879

 

[Sbrown]

Just out of curiosity.....how many of the people who have DSC capable VHFs have actually taken the time to register and set the DSC up? In my opinion, the very basic of the basic when you get out of sight of land, whether in a group or alone, is a fixed mount VHF with DSC hooked up and operating with an up to date GPS. Anything else is nice and icing on the cake. As far as the part of Mainah's question about contact preferences......well, I think I'd rather be able to contact somebody who is in a position to provide help quickly e.g. the boats in my immediate vicinity (within 25 miles or so) or the Coast Guard. Contacting somebody at home would probably not be high on my list of priorities.

 

[bronze_10]

I registered mine after following the suggestions on this forum.

 

[Mainah]

I got separated from my group in 2017 when the storm hit. The next 10-15 minutes I was fighting the storm in zero visibility (making sure the engines are running and I am moving forward) and it felt like an eternity. After the storm cleared I was by myself and not a boat in sight. I could not raise anyone on my vhf. I found out that i drifted off course quite a bit (novice in navigation. I learnt my lesson that in zero visibility always focus on the gps and if possible use a compass). I corrected my course and decided to proceed forward. Took me around 20 minutes to find some wake in the distance and I raced after it and found 3 yamahas and a chaparral.

So it is entirely possible that when shit hits the fan, its every boat for itself and all this powerful equipment would come in handy.

My disclaimer is that I am wet behind the ears as far as navigation in the seas is concerned, having started boating only one season back in 2016. So I believe it is entirely my fault for not being in the group.

Thanks for the candor. Did the group make any attempt to notify someone else that you could be in peril? Did the group continue on out of concern for being able to make it a port themselves? I am assuming yes to both of the above and only ask the question as it does demonstrate a use case for a fixed VHF with high antenna.

Just out of curiosity.....how many of the people who have DSC capable VHFs have actually taken the time to register and set the DSC up? In my opinion, the very basic of the basic when you get out of sight of land, whether in a group or alone, is a fixed mount VHF with DSC hooked up and operating with an up to date GPS. Anything else is nice and icing on the cake. As far as the part of Mainah's question about contact preferences......well, I think I'd rather be able to contact somebody who is in a position to provide help quickly e.g. the boats in my immediate vicinity (within 25 miles or so) or the Coast Guard. Contacting somebody at home would probably not be high on my list of priorities.

My thinking is someone who cares about you on land is capable of contacting the coast guard and not letting up on them until you are located. The issue with all forms of communication is that there needs to be someone on the other end "listening". Registering a DSC radio with a MMSI for the vessel is a must as well as registering a PLB or EPIRB. I whole heartedly agree that using these devices requires work beyond what some folks do and argue that a simple device that one can use well is better than a complex device that one can barely use, particularly in a high stress situation. With any new device I get I make sure that I know how to use it and then practice. I honestly think that if you have kids of the right age on board that they should practice with the handhelds in standard real life scenarios like radios checks and learning how to navigate. Learning can be fun especially if they don't realize it and think they are helping you out.

people are more likely to have issues it’s the wave forecast is up. In a jet boat with the low freeboard You really take a chance if you come off plane. Taking water over the bow or side. Rocking side to side will definitely become Uncomfortable quick. So boat visibility will greatly be reduced in the high high waves. Really easy to lose track of a boat less than 1/4 mile away. IMO Fixed, Handheld and some kind of PLB, inReach, etc. safety equipment is part of boating. You greatly increase you chances of getting help if all bases are covered. Shit happens as we know from last year.

I agree that more options are better. Survivability may be the only standard for some in which case a lifejacket and PLB would accomplish that. perhaps not always as fast as other options but one would be almost guaranteed to survive in warm waters. That said I am becoming convinced that I will be getting a fixed mount VHF for my birthday next week. That is unless I do something like what @MrMoose did in this thread that I found. https://jetboaters.net/threads/supe...older-and-vhf-antenna-holder-all-in-one.9172/
Very inventive but I don't think I would like the handheld swinging around there. Thought I would at least mention for anyone else following this and deciding what is best for them.

So to sum up where I am likely to land on communications load out for Bimini. It looks like I will be at the helm with the new fixed vhf with gps/dsc/antenna on tower, my 15yo will have the hx870 handheld in hand with lanyard to lifejacket, my 14yo will have the PLB secured to his life jacket, my ditch box with have the old trusty handheld in it, my wife and 19yo daughter will likely take the ferry or fly and be in their cell phones as long as they have service ... ha.

I have one more question now though. Does using a fixed VHF antenna as a flag pole have a perceivable impact on transmitting or receiving?

 

[Betik]

Thanks for the candor. Did the group make any attempt to notify someone else that you could be in peril? Did the group continue on out of concern for being able to make it a port themselves? I am assuming yes to both of the above and only ask the question as it does demonstrate a use case for a fixed VHF with high antenna.

I agree that more options are better. Survivability may be the only standard for some in which case a lifejacket and PLB would accomplish that. perhaps not always as fast as other options but one would be almost guaranteed to survive in warm waters. That said I am becoming convinced that I will be getting a fixed mount VHF for my birthday next week. That is unless I do something like what @MrMoose did in this thread that I found. https://jetboaters.net/threads/supe...older-and-vhf-antenna-holder-all-in-one.9172/
Very inventive but I don't think I would like the handheld swinging around there. Thought I would at least mention for anyone else following this and deciding what is best for them.
?

I am sure that @Amar Nanduri will to chime in, but I can bet he broadcast on his group channel. No call for help on our channel and I doubt that we were that far ahead from his group. Our group ( at least me ) was able to pick radio call from @swatski and he was the last group. So Amar being on the second group, I would expect that we would have heard something. I am further confident about this because @Glen run out of fuel, he came on our channel about 1 or 2 before we entered Bimini Sands and we could not make any visual contact with him.
In no way I want to make this sound that his group was not paying attention to the radio, but at times it is really hard to communicate. In our group at least 2 vessels from group told me that they could not understand anything the radio. At mid point I asked in anyone wants to take a break. No response. Then I asked Bruce directly who said to keep going. 3/4 of the way I asked if any of the skis need to make a fuel stop and no response. It turned out that one of the skis was lost at sea and the other ( @Valerie ) told me that she could not understand anything at all. As long as she saw as moving she kept following. @Water Girl also told me that she had a real hard time understanding what was being told on the radio. I probably should check with @hobineros.

If I had to make an uneducated guess I would say that when Amar asked for help nobody could understand. My crew was handling the backup radio and keeping an eye on the ski ( @Valerie ). When we entered the storm, she lost complete visual contact with the ski and had to stand to be able to maintain visual contact with Bruces boat. We got such a tunnel vision during those few minutes, I could only make out Emma lifejacket and what it appeared to me to be a darker shade of grey. My crew was taking the rain on the face to be able to see above the windshield. During the 10-15 minutes ( even if it felt like an eternity) I only focused on the pink line of my chart plotter and Emma's lifejacket During those few minutes, we would have no idea if Valerie had gone overboard or if anything had happened to the other boats in the group. It was pretty much every boat for itself. In all honesty when the group leaders say that there is not much our boat can in those seas, I am afraid that they are 100% correct. I even get goosebumps when I was think about those moments.

So in conclusion, I would never cross without a fixed VHF, but during the stormy condition that we went through I am not surprised that @Amar Nanduri did not get a response. It was intense especially for people just as myself who had at the time a total boating experience of 20 hours ( all in the lake).


PS. I think @MrMoose is currently house-less & most likely hibernating in sub zeros temperatures. So I wanted to commnent that I was thinking about his hand held with large antenna, but he told me that in 2016 he was able to receive Bruce from pretty far but he could not reach back to Bruce. I am assuming a 6W boost is no much for 25W.

 

[Amar Nanduri]

I am sure that @Amar Nanduri will to chime in, but I can bet he broadcast on his group channel. No call for help on our channel and I doubt that we were that far ahead from his group. Our group ( at least me ) was able to pick radio call from @swatski and he was the last group. So Amar being on the second group, I would expect that we would have heard something. I am further confident about this because @Glen run out of fuel, he came on our channel about 1 or 2 before we entered Bimini Sands and we could not make any visual contact with him.
In no way I want to make this sound that his group was not paying attention to the radio, but at times it is really hard to communicate. In our group at least 2 vessels from group told me that they could not understand anything the radio. At mid point I asked in anyone wants to take a break. No response. Then I asked Bruce directly who said to keep going. 3/4 of the way I asked if any of the skis need to make a fuel stop and no response. It turned out that one of the skis was lost at sea and the other ( @Valerie ) told me that she could not understand anything at all. As long as she saw as moving she kept following. @Water Girl also told me that she had a real hard time understanding what was being told on the radio. I probably should check with @hobineros.

If I had to make an uneducated guess I would say that when Amar asked for help nobody could understand. My crew was handling the backup radio and keeping an eye on the ski ( @Valerie ). When we entered the storm, she lost complete visual contact with the ski and had to stand to be able to maintain visual contact with Bruces boat. We got such a tunnel vision during those few minutes, I could only make out Emma lifejacket and what it appeared to me to be a darker shade of grey. My crew was taking the rain on the face to be able to see above the windshield. During the 10-15 minutes ( even if it felt like an eternity) I only focused on the pink line of my chart plotter and Emma's lifejacket During those few minutes, we would have no idea if Valerie had gone overboard or if anything had happened to the other boats in the group. It was pretty much every boat for itself. In all honesty when the group leaders say that there is not much our boat can in those seas, I am afraid that they are 100% correct. I even get goosebumps when I was think about those moments.

So in conclusion, I would never cross without a fixed VHF, but during the stormy condition that we went through I am not surprised that @Amar Nanduri did not get a response. It was intense especially for people just as myself who had at the time a total boating experience of 20 hours ( all in the lake).


PS. I think @MrMoose is currently house-less & most likely hibernating in sub zeros temperatures. So I wanted to commnent that I was thinking about his hand held with large antenna, but he told me that in 2016 he was able to receive Bruce from pretty far but he could not reach back to Bruce. I am assuming a 6W boost is no much for 25W.

@Betik is absolutely right. My scenario is the worse case scenario and all I could think of was call on my channel 3-4 times after the storm without success. I assumed my group turned back as I can't see any boat on the horizon. I then made a quick decision to either move forward or turn back. I am drifting off course and it didn't make sense calling for help in the middle of the ocean nor it made sense in turning back. (I always have the inreach explorer for sos in case I lose my nerve or something goes wrong). So I proceeded forward.

 

[Betik]

good call

 

[Berrie]

I know that the InReach is a much loved device, but I would never get one ( and that is my personal opinion).

The InReach communicates via text message. Having spoken with ppl who have them, messages may be delivered anywhere between 1 and 20 minutes. That in itself makes the unit no more than a toy, such as the Spot (which I do have).

In a scenario where i need non-emergency help, I'd rather rely on my fixed VHF. I doubt you will be very successful getting SeaTow to respond to a text message. Especially with the delays in comms that would be vhallenging. If out of range, my Spot works as a back-up.

In a scenario where i need emergency help, i activate my epirb and wait for someone to get in reach of my handheld.

If i know i am going way out of VHF range (Exumas, Abacos) id rather buy or rent a sat phone where i can have voice comms than mess with a text messaging InReach.

 

[Amar Nanduri]

good call

I second that
This time it will be my family also on the boat. My paranoia about their safety will make me double my safety precautions

 

[Amar Nanduri]

I know that the InReach is a much loved device, but I would never get one ( and that is my personal opinion).

The InReach communicates via text message. Having spoken with ppl who have them, messages may be delivered anywhere between 1 and 20 minutes. That in itself makes the unit no more than a toy, such as the Spot (which I do have).

In a scenario where i need non-emergency help, I'd rather rely on my fixed VHF. I doubt you will be very successful getting SeaTow to respond to a text message. Especially with the delays in comms that would be vhallenging. If out of range, my Spot works as a back-up.

In a scenario where i need emergency help, i activate my epirb and wait for someone to get in reach of my handheld.

If i know i am going way out of VHF range (Exumas, Abacos) id rather buy or rent a sat phone where i can have voice comms than mess with a text messaging InReach.

Let me get this straight. A satellite phone is better than sos and almost real time? Looks like I will be shopping for one

 

[Berrie]

Let me get this straight. A satellite phone is better than sos and almost real time? Looks like I will be shopping for one

A sat phone is real-time as it is a cell phone that runs through satellites. I believe the plans are cost-wise similar to an InReach. But they are twice as expensive to purchase. But you can rent them fairly inexpensive. And I believe they can msg as well, so you can communicate with InReach units - albeit with the understanding there may be long delays.

For a Bimini trip I would not rent one and rely on VHF and EPRIB, but my minivan is made to handle heavier seas than the jet boats. For the jet boats I would not consider it an unnecessary luxury.

 

[swatski]

You bring up a good point that I am finding difficult to understand having not been on the trip. How does one become separated from the group? Is not the purpose of a group to ensure the the group stays together for safety? If one boat is stranded for some reason and the group must continue why would they do so before they know that aid is there or at the very least on the way? Lets say somehow one does get separated. If a mechanical issue is the reason someone got separated did they not attempt to communicate soon enough AND the group left them low and wet. If the reason someone got separated is because they wanted to go slow for comfort or fast because they are impatient then that is on them.

I have not been on this trip so I am truly am not judging. If getting separated is somewhat common for whatever the reason then I can see the wisdom of installing a fixed VHF even given my parameter of having a PLB. This has also gotten me considering the simple etiquette of it as well. While I have to look out for my ship and crew if I expect others to help me I should also be prepared to help them, and I am better able to do so if I can hear them. So here I am again waffling but getting closer so what will shift it the other way. Is getting separated either during the crossings or over the course of the week even somewhat common?

The guys here are giving you good information, so not much to add, I'll just chime in with my own take on it.

Being lost in the international waters is no joke, and it can happen on this trip.

It helps to entertain various scenarios, but at the end of the day it is like everything else - nothing will prepare you other than actual experience. so, if you have a chance to get out there and do some ocean boating, even if only for a weekend or whatever, by all means do it. It is like driving a car, shooting guns, or having sex - the ideas we have about those things vs the actual experience when you are doing it can be two entirely different things.
(at least that's been the story of my life, LOL, LOL , YMMV of course! LOL)
The state of mind is usually a critical part of being able to pull through, get out on the other end, and still enjoy the experience. For me a really good example is @Drift Away and his crew - who got into a pretty sticky situation at some point during the 2017 crossing (well... literally "drifting away"!) - but they remained calm and positive, didn't panic, did not push the "button" (avoiding a nasty bill that would inevitably accompany an emergency call/CG rescue), and ended up getting help, pulling through and having a blast (in tropical paradise) for the remainder of the week. To me - what they did was the smartest thing to do - by simply remaining calm and being patient. I believe @Drift Away is out in the ocean all the time, so for him it was a natural thing to do, think strait and do not panic.

The Strait of Florida weather patterns are pretty crazy and there is no rhyme or reason to small storm cells popping up here and there - out of nowhere - when the pattern is active. Without an on-board radar, that none of us typically uses, if you get hit - you get hit. Last year my group got hit pretty hard soon after coming out of the inlet, even though we tried to run around it for a little bit which was not really possible.

If the waves are in the 4-6ft range the visibility in our boats is compromised and you just can not see much at all past some bigger rollers, so it is very easy to become disoriented and confused - if one is not watching a working plotter/compass (stationary, marine grade is a must IMO). When the storm got bad, the visibility became zero and I mean - I could see my GPS plotter from like literally 10 inches away - that was about it. One can hear nothing (through the storm and lightning) standing on the deck - and there is absolutely no way to communicate through the radio (stationary or hand held, in my boat) in those sorts of conditions (unless you are inside a cabin you just won't hear a thing). For us - it lasted maybe 30-40min? (something like that - while we got separated from my group).

(now - I also had some technical issues with my boat that I had to deal with on top of all that, but that's a different story)

When we emerged from the storm cell, we failed to get in touch with anyone in my group or the next group up albeit apparently @Betik could hear me... So, we just continued on our own, and that was okay - basically - you must be prepared to be separated/lost from a group. I like @Andy S idea of the buddy system, would probably work better than larger groups. But at the end of the day - you may still find yourself alone - and it is a big ocean out there and can feel very lonely. I have always personally loved that aspect of ocean boating - the enormity of the ocean and the feel of how small and insignificant we are when out there, out of the comfort of our back yard, really wanted my kids to experience that. Which they did, and loved it - so that was a great trip for us.

--

 

[Betik]

@Berrie I am not sure if you have noticed but @Amar Nanduri is looking for excuses to spend money.