Hard (re)starting list-side engine (ballasted AR240, wake surfing)

[Cambo]

I have not had any evidence of water infiltration into the oil. . . . and I surf religiously.

The water may not be enough to be noticed in the oil . Next time someone has hesitation pull a spark plug and take a look, try to take one from the back that will be the low point and preferably after only a short attempt to restart so it's not gas soaked. These motors sit low in the boat and water may be close to the cylinder level of the cooling lines as the boat rocks a small amount could seep in. Put a level at the cooling lines were they exit the cylinder and try to get an idea of were that transfers to the outside of the boat when loaded with ballast if you are within 6" as the boat bobs around it could easily weep in.

 

[0627Devildog]

The water may not be enough to be noticed in the oil . Next time someone has hesitation pull a spark plug and take a look try to take one from the back that will be the low point and preferably after only a short attempt to restart so it's not gas soaked. These motors sit low in the boat and water may be close to the cylinder level of the cooling lines as the boat rocks a small amount could seep in. Put a level at the cooling lines were they exit the cylinder and try to get an idea of were that transfers to the outside of the boat when loaded with ballast if you are within 6" as the boat bobs around it could easily weep in.

While certainly worth checking. . . . . . If this is the case, listing (leveling actually) the boat opposite the surfside ballast wouldn't work to correct this issue. No?

 

[jcyamaharider]

So I noticed a couple of things from my new boat compared to my old boat. On the port motor Yamaha swapped what side the exhaust comes out on. The exhaust comes out on the left side beside the jet pump on the 242X and I assume all 240 models, on my old Ar230 it came out on the right side. This is probably why my Ar230 maybe had the issue once in the 4 years we had it and the new boat has done it 4-5 times now. Really sucks but I think the back pressure theory is sounds here. It just fills up the exhaust when listed over to the port side ( it would do it on the starboard side as well because the exhaust exits on the right side on the starboard motor ).

 

[scottbailie]

So I noticed a couple of things from my new boat compared to my old boat. On the port motor Yamaha swapped what side the exhaust comes out on. The exhaust comes out on the left side beside the jet pump on the 242X and I assume all 240 models, on my old Ar230 it came out on the right side. This is probably why my Ar230 maybe had the issue once in the 4 years we had it and the new boat has done it 4-5 times now. Really sucks but I think the back pressure theory is sounds here. It just fills up the exhaust when listed over to the port side ( it would do it on the starboard side as well because the exhaust exits on the right side on the starboard motor ).

I've had a similar problem on my 212X. Others have hypothesized that it's due to increased back pressure on the listed side (further in the water) and have suggested starting the other engine. initiating a turn and raising the previously listed engine out of the water a bit...this worked for me...starts every time. My worry is this is a long term problem that Yamaha (unlike true wake boats) has not anticipated.

 

[ar240owner]

I don't but the back pressue , if I run the blower I have zero isues , but if I don't then it shows up everyonce in a while , just my 2 cents , I think it's just a lot of work for the motors with not to
Much air flow in the engine bay causing a heat soak situation , again just my 2 cents

 

[ar240owner]

And like others said , I have been on my buddy's 190 with no extra weight in the boat and he had this happen to him also when we stopped for 5 min or what not for a beer after running his boat hard for a long top speed run , so I don't buy the back pressure theory

 

[scottbailie]

And like others said , I have been on my buddy's 190 with no extra weight in the boat and he had this happen to him also when we stopped for 5 min or what not for a beer after running his boat hard for a long top speed run , so I don't buy the back pressure theory

That's a good theory. I'll have to try it next time.

 

[J-RAD]

+1 on the port side engine 2016 AR240 thought it might be vapor lock...? Where I'm also listing port side while surfing @Cobra Jet Steering LLC 's theory may "hold water"...

 

[Brad Dunn]

we have the same issue. 2016 242x. sometimes engine takes several attempts to start. usually left side, but sometimes the right. would be nice to not have that issue but at this point I'm thinking it is what it is. They have always eventually fired.

 

[buckbuck]

So is the port motor exposed to more heat than the starboard? It does set between two exhaust manifolds. But my experience with the MR-1 motors is the exhaust manifolds don't radiate heat like the engines. Hmmmm....

 

[Cambo]

Has anyone had a chance to look at the spark plugs to see if they are damp ? It could even be steam entering into the cylinders at some point the water level will start to back fill the exhaust pipe when it does it will create steam that will end up in the cylinders and if really loaded the exhaust manifold could be below the water line. Water could equalize and work its way in or very close to the cylinder throw in some wakes from other boats and if its close the rocking motion could let it push in.

rocknracing posted this picture I'm not sure about the newer models but my 2005 engine manifold would be below the water line



Engine in relation to the water level ?

 

[Scottie]

Okay, so I experienced this Sunday. The port engine wouldn't start back after shutting it down to pick up a surfer and swap a new one in. It wouldn't even turn over. It would turn over a couple of times slowly and then completely stop. I thought the battery was dead at first. Switched to bank 2, starboard engine fired right away, port engine... Same behavior. I stopped trying to start it as I was afraid there was vapor lock or hydro lock or something, and didn't want to bend a rod (not sure how strong the starters are). I opened the hatch, didn't see anything. Left it open for a bit, closed it and turned on the blower. Waited probably 5 minutes, turned the key, and it slowly cranked and ran very rough, like it was flooded. Shut it down and cranked it again, and it cleared up after a bit. So... After reading through the thread, I haven't seen an actual solution to prevent this? Any ideas? I'll probably run the blower next time while surfing which seems like it may help, but that's aggravating due to the noise. I'd really love to keep this from happening. *** After re-reading some of the posts here, I want to emphasize that my port motor STOPPED TURNING OVER after a couple of revolutions. Since this cleared up, it couldn't have been internal water or vapor lock, as I didn't open any cylinders. The exhaust back pressure is the ONLY thing I can think of that could possibly cause that. Agree???

 

[swatski]

Okay, so I experienced this Sunday. The port engine wouldn't start back after shutting it down to pick up a surfer and swap a new one in. It wouldn't even turn over. It would turn over a couple of times slowly and then completely stop. I thought the battery was dead at first. Switched to bank 2, starboard engine fired right away, port engine... Same behavior. I stopped trying to start it as I was afraid there was vapor lock or hydro lock or something, and didn't want to bend a rod (not sure how strong the starters are). I opened the hatch, didn't see anything. Left it open for a bit, closed it and turned on the blower. Waited probably 5 minutes, turned the key, and it slowly cranked and ran very rough, like it was flooded. Shut it down and cranked it again, and it cleared up after a bit. So... After reading through the thread, I haven't seen an actual solution to prevent this? Any ideas? I'll probably run the blower next time while surfing which seems like it may help, but that's aggravating due to the noise. I'd really love to keep this from happening.

I would think a flapper on the exhaust could really help. Anyone tried? @SamCF I believe has one?
In the meantime, short breaks only, turn off with the throttles exactly in neutral, and run that stupid blower... Those are the thigns that seem to help some.

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[Scottie]

Why does the blower help? I've read that it certainly seems too, but why?

 

[0627Devildog]

Why does the blower help? I've read that it certainly seems too, but why?

Personally, I believe the evidence that supports this is anecdotal at best.

That said, I believe the theory is it MAY keep the engine cooler, thus impacting the fuel mixture (?) and therefore allowing a softer start.

Only thing I have tried personally that has worked is running forward on 1 engine and turning hard over towards the stalled engine to list that motor higher out of the water to reduce water pressure on the exhust, while starting it.

This would not likely work in the case @Scottie outlined above however.

 

[Scottie]

Okay. So I'm going to remove the blower assembly and install a couple of spal fans instead, like @gmtech16450yz did. This should get more airflow at lower noise levels, or at least more airflow for the same noise level. If that doesn't cure it, then I'm going to re-route the port side exhaust in the off-season. I'm going to be in there anyway for ballast intakes and sound-proofing. Could re-route to the other side of the port jet if space permits, or maybe even the port-side wall of the starboard jet. I've spent too much time and money for a motor not to start on the water with a boat full of pepple. Especially when the surf wave is only going to get bigger.

 

[swatski]

Okay. So I'm going to remove the blower assembly and install a couple of spal fans instead, like @gmtech16450yz did. This should get more airflow at lower noise levels, or at least more airflow for the same noise level. If that doesn't cure it, then I'm going to re-route the port side exhaust in the off-season. I'm going to be in there anyway for ballast intakes and sound-proofing. Could re-route to the other side of the port jet if space permits, or maybe even the port-side wall of the starboard jet. I've spent too much time and money for a motor not to start on the water with a boat full of pepple. Especially when the surf wave is only going to get bigger.

I think that is a perfect plan.
Kindly please keep us posted, I want to follow suit.

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[Scottie]

Well, add this project to the list of things I'm officially never doing again. I wasn't sure I was going to survive. The swimdeck back cushions were definitely not made with removal in mind on my boat. If you're 6' 220lbs, don't crawl under the starboard seat and all the way to back to remove those nuts, trust me. If you do, do it on a day that won't kill you with heat stroke when you get stuck. With that said, nice mod. I was going to wire one fan to 12v eng on, so it would run whenever the engines were running, but I decided I wanted to be able to turn it off. So I just wired both fans to factory blower switch. The noise level is probably similar, but it's not as high pitched and blends much more with the motors. It's also over 4 times the airflow. I never felt like the stock blower was doing anything. These fans definitely do. They replace all the air in the engine compartment very quickly it seems.

 

[swatski]

Well, add this project to the list of things I'm officially never doing again. I wasn't sure I was going to survive. The swimdeck back cushions were definitely not made with removal in mind on my boat. If you're 6' 220lbs, don't crawl under the starboard seat and all the way to back to remove those nuts, trust me. If you do, do it on a day that won't kill you with heat stroke when you get stuck. With that said, nice mod. I was going to wire one fan to 12v eng on, so it would run whenever the engines were running, but I decided I wanted to be able to turn it off. So I just wired both fans to factory blower switch. The noise level is probably similar, but it's not as high pitched and blends much more with the motors. It's also over 4 times the airflow. I never felt like the stock blower was doing anything. These fans definitely do. They replace all the air in the engine compartment very quickly it seems.
View attachment 77783 View attachment 77784

This looks so good. Would you be so kind to post a link to the blowers, albeit I realize those may not be doable in 240s as the aft bulkhead is totally different, but they might fit.
I'm assuming you are having them both blow out, correct?

I have experimented with the blower /engine restart issue a bit this last week. Basically, ran the blowers every time I would stop - while ballasted (I also had the engines OFF the throttles in dead-neutral position, so that was another variable).
Never had even a hint of hesitation to start the listed down engine (port in my case)!
S0 - you may be up to something good - that heat/vapor lock theory is gaining credence in my mind.

The bottom line: big quiet blowers would be an asset in these boats, no matter what.

Let us know how it goes.
(I did not really push or test hard this time and only made short stops as necessary, as I was single-parenting w/three female teens/pre-teens... In other words, I had enough on my hands not to look for any extra excitement, lol).

 

[Jgorm]

I've heard vapor lock mentioned a few times in this thread. My understanding is that is only an issue with carbs. I can't see a way it can occur on fuel injection.
In the mr1, I've seen vapors come out the intake when starting sometimes. Maybe the waves or rocking pushes air into the exhaust and cam overlap might let the exhaust into the intake. This may be why the blower helps. Just theorizing.