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Impeler Shaft Play / Intermediate Bering Condition Verification

Konnie

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Got a 2006 AR230

Been greasing the intermediate bearings about once a year.
Typically 3-5 strokes for each side with the grease gun and then some grease squeezes out from the bearing.
This time I had to pump a lot more on the port side engine. No grease squeezed out from the bearing but it squeezed out around the shaft where it exists the haul, seen from under the boat.
Did I blow the seal in bearing housing? I have not detected any water leaking into the engine compartment.

Checked the play of the shaft on the port side and there is probably about 1/8"-1/4" play up and down.
Is this amount of play concerning?

No play on the other, start board, shaft.
I did find a hairline crack in the haul just below the shaft exit. I sanded that out and painted over. Not sure if related at all.
Sucked up a rope on this side about 2 years ago, still not sure if related.

How is the condition of the intermediate bearing checked?

To my knowledge the pump bearings have newer been serviced / replaced on this 14 year old boat.
Read some great articles about replacing the pump bearings on this site. Will tackle that next.
Think I will convert to oil filled instead of greased bearings.

Both pumps makes some noise but nothing crazy and the pumps make different kind of noise.

Regards,
 

swatski

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There should be no play on the impeller shaft...
I would check the main pump bearing ASAP, I don;t know how that works in MR-1s which have gear reduction, in 1.8 people have lost engines when the pump bearing fails.

--
 

Konnie

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Thanks Swatski! Appreciate your input!
 

tdonoughue

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I don't think the crack is probably related.

My boat does not take anywhere near that much grease a year. I am usually not even getting 1/2 a stroke in (and I am pretty sure one of my seals is blown). I am betting you blew your seals and it is just the grease that is keeping water out of your boat... As the man says, pull the pumps and do a full inspection, both sides. Certainly the one shaft with the play is a problem.
 

Konnie

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I don't think the crack is probably related.

My boat does not take anywhere near that much grease a year. I am usually not even getting 1/2 a stroke in (and I am pretty sure one of my seals is blown). I am betting you blew your seals and it is just the grease that is keeping water out of your boat... As the man says, pull the pumps and do a full inspection, both sides. Certainly the one shaft with the play is a problem.
Thanks for the input!
 

pcriley

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Impeller to housing radial clearance limit is 0.024". If you have 1/8-1/4" clearance you have a big problem. Even if you're talking about axial play i'm sure that's way out of spec.
 

Konnie

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Impeller to housing radial clearance limit is 0.024". If you have 1/8-1/4" clearance you have a big problem. Even if you're talking about axial play i'm sure that's way out of spec.
Thanks for the input!
From where do you get the radial clearance information? Very useful data
Regards,
 

pcriley

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Thanks for the input!
From where do you get the radial clearance information? Very useful data
Regards,
That is from the service manual. I couldn't find an axial play spec but I can't imagine that any precision bearing would accomodate 1/8" of play. I can't feel any play in either jet pump of my 2006, axial or radial.
 

Konnie

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That is from the service manual. I couldn't find an axial play spec but I can't imagine that any precision bearing would accomodate 1/8" of play. I can't feel any play in either jet pump of my 2006, axial or radial.
Where did you get your service manual from?
I googled and find a few sites that sells them but some look less legit than others.
Thanks again!!
 

Konnie

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Pulled off the outer and mid impeller housing and the cone today on the Port Side.
There was strong evidence that once upon a time there was an outer bearing with lubrication of some sort. But all I could find was little steel balls and grease water...
Looks like the inner bearing is still in place but couldn’t get a good look as I couldn’t get the impeller shaft out. Will tackle that tomorrow.
B6A79308-452F-45D1-A777-D536426C7796.jpeg3643D339-CD75-484C-84D5-95FB92FD69D1.jpeg71FAEB29-E3BD-4DBE-9714-C33B25CEFF41.jpeg
 

tdonoughue

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Obviously those bearings are shot. Doesn't look like water intrusion, though. Did you find water in there?

Note that when replacing the bearings (or inspecting them) it is recommended that you replace the seal to the cone.

If I am looking at this the right way, your shaft does not come out that way. @swatski can check me on this, but you should have to remove the 4 bolts around the edge of the pump and pull the whole pump off the boat. The shaft and impeller should come with it. From there you can inspect the front seal, the impellers, the wear ring (and work on the cone properly in the comfort of your own garage, rather than hanging off the back of a boat...).
 

Konnie

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Obviously those bearings are shot. Doesn't look like water intrusion, though. Did you find water in there?

Note that when replacing the bearings (or inspecting them) it is recommended that you replace the seal to the cone.

If I am looking at this the right way, your shaft does not come out that way. @swatski can check me on this, but you should have to remove the 4 bolts around the edge of the pump and pull the whole pump off the boat. The shaft and impeller should come with it. From there you can inspect the front seal, the impellers, the wear ring (and work on the cone properly in the comfort of your own garage, rather than hanging off the back of a boat...).
Thanks for your input!
Yes, water in there.
I did removed the 4 bolts.
The outer housing comes off, the middle housing slides out about 3” and the front bearing hits the nut on the shaft. Shaft won’t slide out.
Per other threads on this forum that isn’t all that uncommon.
Removed the spark plugs so the shaft could turn, still couldn’t t get the shaft out.
One thread suggests to use a 2x4 and between the intake grates rest it on the base of the impeller, not the blades, tap on the 2x4 with hammer until shaft let’s go. Thoughts on that?
 

tdonoughue

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Wow. Wonder about the water. That certainly explains the disintegration of the bearings, but I wonder what grease was put in there last. Usually the grease turns milky with water intrusion...

Ok, on to the important stuff. Good. I was afraid you were maybe trying to pull it out per the pictures... But you have it right. I would put the plugs back in (best the shaft does not spin if you want to wiggle it or try to tap it with the 2x4). Mine (a later model, granted) did not require extreme measures (just some pulling and shifting back and forth). You may find it just needs some more forward and back and forth (basically using the middle housing as a slide hammer a bit, continuing to wiggle). Otherwise, the 2x4 tap is about what you are down to. I don't know of a puller that is wide enough for that application (and then you would need to brace against the gelcoat, which would be iffy). Only other option is to insert something behind the middle housing and the boat (again--gelcoat dangers) to try to pry it out. I think I would do the 2x4 (or a 2x2) before that. Do be careful for those impeller blades...
 

Konnie

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Wow. Wonder about the water. That certainly explains the disintegration of the bearings, but I wonder what grease was put in there last. Usually the grease turns milky with water intrusion...

Ok, on to the important stuff. Good. I was afraid you were maybe trying to pull it out per the pictures... But you have it right. I would put the plugs back in (best the shaft does not spin if you want to wiggle it or try to tap it with the 2x4). Mine (a later model, granted) did not require extreme measures (just some pulling and shifting back and forth). You may find it just needs some more forward and back and forth (basically using the middle housing as a slide hammer a bit, continuing to wiggle). Otherwise, the 2x4 tap is about what you are down to. I don't know of a puller that is wide enough for that application (and then you would need to brace against the gelcoat, which would be iffy). Only other option is to insert something behind the middle housing and the boat (again--gelcoat dangers) to try to pry it out. I think I would do the 2x4 (or a 2x2) before that. Do be careful for those impeller blades...
I’ll try wiggle it some more tomorrow if I have to go to the 2x option.
Thanks again!
 

pcriley

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Looks nasty but at least you know the problem! BTW: A majority of bearing failures are due to inadequate lubrication or contamination. Clearly both of those have occurred but who knows which happened first. I would rebuild the pump, check impeller clearance and coupling alignment if there's a procedure for that. Maybe someone who's done that can chime in.
 

Konnie

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Got the impeller shaft with mid unit housing and impeller off the boat today.
Got it done by tapping on the center of the impeller with a rebar and hammer between the intake grates while my daughter was pulling and rattling on impeller and mid unit housing.

Also got the rear nut off the shaft surprisingly easy.
Didn’t find the washer behind it!? But looked pretty beat up.
The rear bearing has completely failed.
The inner ring of the rear bearing is stuck on the shaft.
The outer ring of the rear bearing is stuck in the housing.
The shaft won’t come out of the housing because the inner ring on the rear shaft bearing can’t slide through the front bearing.
The front bearing is still intact but in horrible shape.

Tried to beat the shaft out hoping the front bearing outer ring would slide out from the housing. Didn’t happen. Put some ”liquid wrench” on the bearing over night hoping to be able to beat it out tomorrow.
If not possible I’ll take it to shop and have the press it out.
Thoughts on this?
Plan to order parts to rebuild the pump with new seals and bearings. Probably go for oil lubed in stead of grease lubed.
Think impeller and shaft look good enough to keep.

Now how do I check the condition of the Intermediate bearing? The one located towards the front of the shaft. Looked as close as I could with flashlight and took pictures but can’t tell if there are any issues. How do I verify if the seals are good?
Did pull out a silicon / sealant looking thing but suspect that is a seal for a through haul fitting or similar.
Any feedback is greatly appreciated!!2E1B5C21-F3D4-483B-888F-7D94E90E98C8.jpeg23BC02B9-CDAE-44AD-9B6C-4171972A6232.jpeg29B21736-A116-440E-A810-2A5CC845A938.jpegAB2E863E-92A5-4196-8063-406EC28A3B7D.jpeg2E1B5C21-F3D4-483B-888F-7D94E90E98C8.jpeg23BC02B9-CDAE-44AD-9B6C-4171972A6232.jpeg29B21736-A116-440E-A810-2A5CC845A938.jpegAB2E863E-92A5-4196-8063-406EC28A3B7D.jpeg953B7EAF-BF15-46A7-8268-E682ACC07C3E.jpeg92525CA0-8A9E-44A2-87BA-547FC2D1C472.jpeg97E06886-D3C8-4F9D-A86E-A0A4E3A7F6F5.jpeg4FA93116-5EF9-455A-B97A-F316C43C57B2.jpeg
 

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swatski

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Got the impeller shaft with mid unit housing and impeller off the boat today.
Got it done by tapping on the center of the impeller with a rebar and hammer between the intake grates while my daughter was pulling and rattling on impeller and mid unit housing.

Also got the rear nut off the shaft surprisingly easy.
Didn’t find the washer behind it!? But looked pretty beat up.
The rear bearing has completely failed.
The inner ring of the rear bearing is stuck on the shaft.
The outer ring of the rear bearing is stuck in the housing.
The shaft won’t come out of the housing because the inner ring on the rear shaft bearing can’t slide through the front bearing.
The front bearing is still intact but in horrible shape.

Tried to beat the shaft out hoping the front bearing outer ring would slide out from the housing. Didn’t happen. Put some ”liquid wrench” on the bearing over night hoping to be able to beat it out tomorrow.
If not possible I’ll take it to shop and have the press it out.
Thoughts on this?
Plan to order parts to rebuild the pump with new seals and bearings. Probably go for oil lubed in stead of grease lubed.
Think impeller and shaft look good enough to keep.

Now how do I check the condition of the Intermediate bearing? The one located towards the front of the shaft. Looked as close as I could with flashlight and took pictures but can’t tell if there are any issues. How do I verify if the seals are good?
Did pull out a silicon / sealant looking thing but suspect that is a seal for a through haul fitting or similar.
Any feedback is greatly appreciated!!View attachment 116533View attachment 116534View attachment 116535View attachment 116536View attachment 116533View attachment 116534View attachment 116535View attachment 116536View attachment 116537View attachment 116538View attachment 116540View attachment 116541
Great progress!
@Bruce and @Murf'n'surf have had extensive posting s on the pump rebuilds.
@Cobra Jet Steering LLC posted details on the intermediate bearing somewhere, if you search, I'll try to look as well as I'm kind of curious!

--
 

Cobra Jet Steering LLC

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tdonoughue

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Great progress indeed! Good job getting that out.

A couple of notes from my side...
1) Last item you need to worry about right now, but when you reassemble, before you do--you need to re-silicone that intake! Looks like you are missing a lot of gelcoat there... That can't be good.
2) The impeller is impressive. Given how messed up the bearings are, etc., this impeller looks MUCH better than mine did.
3) I am noting some scoring on the shaft farther up toward the splines. Anyone have ideas or concerns about that?
4) No experience with removing the bearings on impellers, but when I was working on cars... Pressing was always preferred--just not usually possible for lack of tools. Therefore, you hammered at it (and then risked messing something up). I wish I could tell you that I thought that the penetrating oil would help.
5) The reason I think that one of my intermediate bearings is blown is when I got to this point and looked down that shaft hole, I could see grease leaking out into the hole (and there was grease on the shaft). I only saw that one on side; not on the other. I don't see that type of thing on yours... Coda: I wound up not fixing mine, just putting it back together and resolving to watch it closely.

Not as helpful as I am sure others will be able to offer, but that is what I got. Keep us updated on the progress!
 
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