Thoughts and demo rides of wake / towsports boats: Moomba Max, Axis A22, MB Sports

[haknslash]

Yes behind the boat you can definitely hear the Raptor. Inside the cockpit it is not loud and certainly 200x easier to live with than the Yamaha. So far the noise behind it is not annoying to me while surfing although I can certainly see the appeal for the surf pipe. I almost optioned my boat with it when I was building but I swapped it for trailer steps which are a “must have” for my boat unlike the surf pipe which I could always add later on. We may get one at some point but so far I’m still able to talk with my daughter in the back of the boat while surfing or listen to music (we don’t blare our system at all) and it’s working for us. My only concern with the surf pipe is it seems quality at FAE is spotty and I’ve seen some of the posts about cracks and poor quality. Customer service seems good with them though so that matters in the end. It’s a $650 upgrade with the options I’d like to have (blended welds, flapper, install kit). I still need a backup prop first so it will just have to wait. I want to do dual zone RGB LED interior as well so I’m sure a surf prop will be added at some point.

 

[BigAbe75]

Man, summer has to come soon!! This thread just has me jonesing to buy a boat. Lol

i don’t want to buy a boat, I just feel like I need to. Lol

I love my boat, I just need to get on it to remind myself how much I love it!

 

[haknslash]

What I wonder is, at those crazy a$$ prices, when would they actually start incorporating some of the newer tech like the big gyros (seakeeper and similar, basically the same concept as segway but big/built-in and balancing side to side). Those would need minimal water ballast and just shape the wave with the gyro and fins/tabs?

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The thing is you would still need displacement. The more you displace the more power the wave will have. You can shape a wave to make it look great with pitch and roll but if there's no power behind it (ballast pushing the boat down to displace) then it's not going to matter really. The wake9 video posted on the previous page does a good job at explaining why displacement is one of the key ingredients to making a big, strong, powerful wave that not only looks great with a nice clean face and shape but also has power from front to back. The goal for most I would say is widening the "sweet spot" of the wave as Lon as possible to give more room to play and then also dial in the desired shape you like. I don't think a gyro alone would do much since there is more to it then making the hull sit at an angle or even have a slight crab walk for shaping.

 

[haknslash]

On 2018 and 2019 Supras the outboard tabs both drop at takeoff along with the center plate for cruising or wakeboarding, which makes a huge difference in getting on plane, then the outboard tabs retract as you continue to accelerate, with the center plate used as a pitch trim. You can use the Autowake system to automatically trim the boat for roll with ballast while cruising.
On 2020 Supras the outboard tabs act as before, but they also can be set to deploy automatically at speed to trim the boat for roll while cruising.

Same for my 2019 Moomba if using Autowake but I have to be in "wake boarding" Autowake mode. All 3 tabs will deploy for the "launch" feature I believe they call it. Otherwise if not using Autowake my center plate will automatically deploy to 100% when coming to idle so that it can help the boat plane next time I apply throttle for a launch and then it begins to retract at planing speeds. That alone does an excellent job helping the boat get on plane quickpy. Ive noticed the Moomba and Supra boats seem to have a large center tab compared to others boats and their center tab design so I'm not sure how much more or less it's effective vs other designs. I just know they are big plates lol.

 

[swatski]

No idea. It does seem like there could be more technical engineering solutions thrown at the problem at these higher price points. However, I think ballast is likely going to be a major factor for the foreseeable future in any case since water displacement - not just wake shape - seems to be a critical component of the "power" behind a wave. I've ridden some beautiful looking wakes/waves behind boats with limited ballast and the experience is very different compared to when more ballast is in play. The wave just becomes soft, like a big marshmallow. Granted, tech can probably overcome some of this but for now I think there is "no replacement for displacement" overall.

The thing is you would still need displacement. The more you displace the more power the wave will have. You can shape a wave to make it look great with pitch and roll but if there's no power behind it (ballast pushing the boat down to displace) then it's not going to matter really. The wake9 video posted on the previous page does a good job at explaining why displacement is one of the key ingredients to making a big, strong, powerful wave that not only looks great with a nice clean face and shape but also has power from front to back. The goal for most I would say is widening the "sweet spot" of the wave as Lon as possible to give more room to play and then also dial in the desired shape you like. I don't think a gyro alone would do much since there is more to it then making the hull sit at an angle or even have a slight crab walk for shaping.

Well, that is exactly the point...
The point is... to increase the displacement of water being moved (into forming a surf wave) not just shooting a nice shape, but moving the volume of water - the key to surfing. That is of course very very clear behind a Yamaha as well: a pretty wave does not equal a ropeless/surfable one!

That's why I gave the Segway as an example - to make it more easy to understand how the gyroscopic "pull" can be used to replace gravitational forces.
Basically, a gyroscopic stabilizer like Seakeeper uses the inertia of a fast moving heavy core material w/kinetic rotational energy to counter a gravitational/torsional force (of moving waves). In this context, it can simply be used instead of static ballast (water bags/tanks) to push/displace more water by a hull - without adding weight. In other words, the rotational force is substituting for gravitational force of static ballast.

A gyroscope of sufficient force (and I would thing a Seakeeper-class device that levels 30-60ft yachts in 5' seas completely smooth, lol, would do!) -functionally linked with tabs' movement/angle (using a software algorithm) - would be able to funnel any amount of water into a perfectly shaped voluminous wave at any desired speed. Moreover, it would be able react/adjust to changing conditions, inside and outside the boat.

My 300k 24ft surf boat would have to have something like that, or - I'm not paying. lol

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[haknslash]

Ah I see what you're saying now. I was under the impression those things mainly controlled a boat rocking around in rough seas. I see your point though if it could pull the boat down and control other angles. Interesting idea. Yea would probably cost a small fortune but maybe tech will be cheaper years down the road so you wouldn't have to sell your organs

 

[OrangeTJ]

I can see how a system like that could help make the most of the mass you have and ensure a very consistent and/or tuneable wave, but it can't replace mass, can it?

 

[swatski]

I can see how a system like that could help make the most of the mass you have and ensure a very consistent and/or tuneable wave, but it can't replace mass, can it?

Yes, it can, it's like "converting" kinetic energy into something that acts like gravity. That's how the segway keeps you from falling down on your face or your butt, it is an unreal feeling - if you've never experienced it - there are tours I think in DC for sure - well worth the try, it blew my mind!

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[haknslash]

I'm going to trademark SegWave

 

[OrangeTJ]

Yes, it can, it's like "converting" kinetic energy into something that acts like gravity. That's how the segway keeps you from falling down on your face or your butt, it is an unreal feeling - if you've never experienced it - there are tours I think in DC for sure - well worth the try, it blew my mind!

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So, if placed on a scale, would the segway weigh more when turned on than when turned off? Do its tires press harder into the ground? I'm not trying to be contrary - just wondering where this phantom mass comes from?

 

[haknslash]

I just scheduled my pick up date for March 14th and I'm already counting down the days to get my hands on her. I already got a laundry list of mods to get started on once I take delivery.

On another note, I agree with @d_coyne1984 I could fall asleep to that sounds. Regarding the surf pipe, I found it interesting that MasterCraft does not offer surf pipes on any of their boats. After further discussion with the dealer, MasterCraft has such clean emissions and that's why they don't offer it. Also I was have been watching youtube videos by WAKE MANN and found out some surf pipes can impact wakeboarding wakes.

You can get a surf pipe for your NXT22 from FAE MasterCraft - Fresh Air Exhaust

As for if it messes with your wake it would be best to check with the MC guys and see what they say. Not all boats have issues. I haven't heard of any adverse wake or wave issues with the Supra or Moomba guys who run surf pipes. Could be something with his 'Bu hull design but I don't know. I'm also a sub of his channel and enjoy it for the most part aside from his LOUD intro music lol.

 

[swatski]

So, if placed on a scale, would the segway weigh more when turned on than when turned off? Do its tires press harder into the ground? I'm not trying to be contrary - just wondering where this phantom mass comes from?

No, it would weight the same. It needs to pivot off of something. In case of marine/boat gyroscope - typically centrally located around the bottom of the keel, built-in with the stringers. The forces are staggering so most people do not use those as aftermarket.
The way it would be useful in a wake boat is that one could, for example, lower a side tab and then use the gyro to counter the list - by pushing the tabbed side back down, effectively displacing water/mass, and therefore generating displacement - out of the blue (with no added mass/ballast).
Btw - That would not be happening when sitting in the water and not moving, the gyro has nothing to counterbalance or work with (I mean - work against, lol). unless you are in rough water of course, but that’s a different application, not for surfing.

so it’s about moving mass, or center of gravity, not so much adding mass. But moving mass in conjunction with boat moving/displacing water while changing hull shape due to tab deployment, and changing speed and surface angles) - would effectively be the same as adding mass, locally.

in a very different way, mechanistically, this would be a trick like the power wedge - NOT the same concept, but you know what I mean, generating gravity-like pull with a mechanical device. Power wedge uses water resistance, the gyro uses torque and inertia.

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[OrangeTJ]

That sounds pretty awesome. I agree - they should put that in the G23 Paragon!

 

[DavisAR195]

You can get a surf pipe for your NXT22 from FAE MasterCraft - Fresh Air Exhaust

As for if it messes with your wake it would be best to check with the MC guys and see what they say. Not all boats have issues. I haven't heard of any adverse wake or wave issues with the Supra or Moomba guys who run surf pipes. Could be something with his 'Bu hull design but I don't know. I'm also a sub of his channel and enjoy it for the most part aside from his LOUD intro music lol.

Thank you I was checking out that site to see how they would work on the MC’s. I’m going to give it a summer and see if not having one is an issue. Also the RV pad on the side of my house is a little tight and I like having the ability of folding down the swim platform and surf tabs if needed. If I installed a surf pipe I wouldn’t be able to fold down the platform.

 

[d_coyne1984]

As for trim functions, aren’t the surf tabs also functioning as a trim tab at higher speeds? I know they help you get on plane faster, right? Or, is that just a Supra/Moomba feature?

On the Supremes (and I assume the Centurions too) you have full ability to use the tabs and center plate at any speed. There is no quick launch on the Supremes sadly (Centurion has it). I wish I could hack the controls because it would be super easy code to add. You can easily accomplish it manually, but it's a nice convenience and nice to have for less experienced drivers. These things are so wide and heavy that I have never felt the need to use my outer tabs for roll adjustment (they would have been nice for my Yamaha for sure), but I use my center tab all the time to smooth out the ride if it gets a little rough and there isn't much bow weight.

 

[haknslash]

Browsing FB and ran across this SL wave with 800 lbs of lead on top of stock ballast with AutoWake on putting out a wave in a different zip code lol! @MattFX4 I think you're going to have a FUN summer

 

[MattFX4]

Browsing FB and ran across this SL wave with 800 lbs of lead on top of stock ballast with AutoWake on putting out a wave in a different zip code lol! @MattFX4 I think you're going to have a FUN summer

View attachment 113361

I saw this too! Didn’t see what his setup was though. Looks like I need to order 800lbs of lead soon haha. Man I can’t wait. I’m going to drop mine in soon. My son’s little league keeps getting in the way though.

 

[jcyamaharider]

@trace has a fantastic wave behind his Supra. I believe he has added extra lead also.

 

[trace]

@trace has a fantastic wave behind his Supra. I believe he has added extra lead also.

Yep, we run a 1000lbs of lead in our 2019 Supra SE. It's a big mamma jamma.

 

[haknslash]

I saw this too! Didn’t see what his setup was though. Looks like I need to order 800lbs of lead soon haha. Man I can’t wait. I’m going to drop mine in soon. My son’s little league keeps getting in the way though.

He didn't give specifics on where he positioned the lead bags but said that wave was with only 2 people in the boat and AutoWake turned on. He later mentioned he thought his settings for roll and pitch were -3.5 roll. 9.0 pitch and a speed of 11.2.

SA wave also looked legit with 650 lbs of lead! Of course camera angle kind of makes this look amplified being below the rub rail to get that angle but still shows how clean and nice that wave shape is.