***WARNING*** 2015-18 YAMAHA “AR” BOAT OWNERS WITH FORWARD SWEPT WAKEBOARD TOWERS

[Neutron]

He posted pics of the broken and frayed cable somewhere. I remember seeing it

 

[ThatJeepGuy]

While I appreciate your opinion @Williamsone46, I disagree

My current boat is a 2017 AR240.

To store my boat I have to lower the tower. I raise the tower after it's stored to prevent theft. So I've raised and lowered my tower 60+ times. Surely I can tell if the knob cross threads....

I check the knobs frequently just because that's what I do. I. Checked these knobs when I fueled along the way to Hourbor Town. I checked them when I fueled at Bahia Mar. And I checked them when we left the marina the morning of the 10th. It's just pease of mind I guess.

Are these boats not built to go in the ocean? On July 10th there was no small craft advisory. No coast guard telling folks not to go out that day.

During our crossing my port side knob backed out. As the knob got to the last few threads it started to pull at the remainding threads causing the threads to be compromised and wouldn't thread in more than 2 turns. It didn't take an entire season to back out, just a couple hours. I thank the Lord that my starboard side didn't decide to back out or I'd be in the same predicament @swatski or even worse someone could have died.

The seas weren't ideal but weren't extreme either. Nothing these boats shouldn't be able to handle. Yet without any way to lock these towers upright it's an accident waiting to happen.

I haven't spoken to my dealer since their failed attempt to ship me new knobs. Honestly I'd rather not deal with Yamaha unless I absolutely have to.

I don't give damn if you think my incident was user error. I know for a fact it wasn't.

How "periodically" should these knobs be checked? 15 minutes? 30 minutes? 3 hours?

 

[Crlos16]

I'm so disappointed that Yamaha will not cover this under warranty! Here I was planning and looking forward to step up to a new AR 240 for spring 2018.... after reading all these issues that these boats have...... No thanks I'm sticking with my 232 or going with a different manufacturer.
I would think Yamaha would at least cover this repairs under "customer service"....

 

[fireflymedic]

Speaking of that "cable". I wish swatski has a picture of what happened to his cable. I could not believe my eyes when I saw it at Bimini sands.

Some were he did post a pic it is snapped like a string

 

[swatski]

Some were he did post a pic it is snapped like a string

Correct. However, those cable stops are only there to hold the tower up (to prevent it from scratching the hull cap - gelcoat), not meant as a real safety feature, I think.

But it does not matter. Here is the deal:

While I appreciate your opinion @Williamsone46, I disagree

My current boat is a 2017 AR240.

To store my boat I have to lower the tower. I raise the tower after it's stored to prevent theft. So I've raised and lowered my tower 60+ times. Surely I can tell if the knob cross threads....

I check the knobs frequently just because that's what I do. I. Checked these knobs when I fueled along the way to Hourbor Town. I checked them when I fueled at Bahia Mar. And I checked them when we left the marina the morning of the 10th. It's just pease of mind I guess.

Are these boats not built to go in the ocean? On July 10th there was no small craft advisory. No coast guard telling folks not to go out that day.

During our crossing my port side knob backed out. As the knob got to the last few threads it started to pull at the remainding threads causing the threads to be compromised and wouldn't thread in more than 2 turns. It didn't take an entire season to back out, just a couple hours. I thank the Lord that my starboard side didn't decide to back out or I'd be in the same predicament @swatski or even worse someone could have died.

The seas weren't ideal but weren't extreme either. Nothing these boats shouldn't be able to handle. Yet without any way to lock these towers upright it's an accident waiting to happen.

I haven't spoken to my dealer since their failed attempt to ship me new knobs. Honestly I'd rather not deal with Yamaha unless I absolutely have to.

I don't give damn if you think my incident was user error. I know for a fact it wasn't.

How "periodically" should these knobs be checked? 15 minutes? 30 minutes? 3 hours?

@ThatJeepGuy just completely nailed all the issues of this discussion in one succinct post!

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[haknslash]

Let's also not forget that even with the bolts going in several turns on perfectly fine/acceptable threads, the tower can still move under stresses such as crossing a wake. This is evidenced by the paint chipping on the tower base and thankfully since others have posted images of their AR towers I see I'm not the only one having the tower move....even if fully secured/threaded with several turns of the bolt/knob. There is an issue with the way it was designed IMHO.

Like others on here I stow my boat in my garage with the tower folded, so it's gets lots of use up and down each season. I check mine before and after every outing and although mine haven't backed out and stay fully engaged, they still show signs of the tower moving. Again this is an issue with a bad design IMO and needs a locking pin or some kind of safety fallback feature. Could be something is not quite right with the thread engagement which could be a mismatch in pitch diameters of the two mating threads, something else related to tolerances or worse...by design. Who knows?! I may see if our QA dept has the standard Go and No Go gauges here at work for these threads as it would be interesting to know. I doubt it since we typically only store gauges for threads we use since we have to maintain records of them but it's worth a long shot.

 

[0627Devildog]

I like that idea! Could a hand wheel w/a "dog point" like that be custom ordered? (I would like 2, please, lol)

Don't forget the time machine. . . .

 

[LOZBum]

There are allot of interesting points on here about Yamaha's response to this issue, but, while I do feel their response to Swatski is unfortunate and disheartening, I don't find it at all surprising. IMO I would have been more surprised if they would have fixed all of the issues just by the warranty process. Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending Yamaha and I don't think Swatski did anything wrong, if it was me in his boat or any other AR on July 10th I wouldn't have done anything different. Simply put, there was no warning against going into those conditions by the Yamaha to Swatski or any other AR owner and Yamaha should be held liable.

Again, IMO, Yamaha has to have realized that, and they are setting there with little options to defend their product and design. They cannot, after the fact, come back and say those conditions are too rough and he shouldn't have been out there, that makes them liable for not warning a customer of hazards with their product in certain conditions. They don't want to come out and say there is a design flaw now, because that makes them liable for the injuries incurred by Swatski since they didn't account for all possible failure modes, and makes them looking at the possibly of a recall (which become very expensive). If there is a manufacturing defect they wouldn't admit it either for the same reason as a design flaw. So Yamaha is stuck, how do you satisfy a customer, where the customer could very well sue due to injuries, without inadvertently admitting liability? There is no good way, and again IMO, Yamaha is trying to make the whole situation go away by blaming Swatski of operator error, in a hope that he will just fix the issues on his own and move on. That is why at this point, I think, they are not stepping up on this.

The problem I see with their position is that robust designs have to take into account how the user is going to interface/use the product. So if it is expected that the operator of this tower is going to use that bolt regularly to raise and lower the tower, then they should have considered what the likeliness of cross threading the bolts is and what the possible effects are on the design if the bolt is cross threaded. It does not appear to me that they have done this, heck it appears to me that they haven't considered that these bolts would even work themselves loose during normal operation, which has been shown to happen.

Yamaha is no different than any other company out there. They are in business to make money. They are trying to manage their defect exposure, risk of being liable and their bottom line. I fully believe they expect to be sued over this and every action they are taking is in an effort to minimize the impact of such situation. They've been through it many times before, why wouldn't they be trying to anticipate it again? So because of all of that, I would not trust/believe anything Yamaha is saying is the root cause of this issue. They are just trying to cover their ass without digging themselves a deeper hole.

Again, I don't agree with Yamaha's actions on this, it sucks for Swatski and it is very unfortunate that companies are conditioned/tempted to react like this instead of doing what is right. Sorry for such a long post...

 

[0627Devildog]

Again, IMO, Yamaha has to have realized that, and they are setting there with little options to defend their product and design. They cannot, after the fact, come back and say those conditions are too rough and he shouldn't have been out there, that makes them liable for not warning a customer of hazards with their product in certain conditions. They don't want to come out and say there is a design flaw now, because that makes them liable for the injuries incurred by Swatski since they didn't account for all possible failure modes, and makes them looking at the possibly of a recall (which become very expensive). If there is a manufacturing defect they wouldn't admit it either for the same reason as a design flaw. So Yamaha is stuck, how do you satisfy a customer, where the customer could very well sue due to injuries, without inadvertently admitting liability? There is no good way, and again IMO, Yamaha is trying to make the whole situation go away by blaming Swatski of operator error, in a hope that he will just fix the issues on his own and move on. That is why at this point, I think, they are not stepping up on this.

It would be EASY for Yamaha to do the RIGHT thing by solving this with an offer of settlement under conditions set forth in a NDA. . . . . . . . . Providing the necessary resolution AND protecting themselves. There IS a way to do both but they chose a different path which most of us feel is beneath them, ultimately doing damage to the brand. That damage is difficult to calculate and IMHO they have severely underestimated that aspect of their decision.

 

[BigN8]

When you say "failures", what failed?

It's my understanding @swatski incident is an isolated incident. @swatski mentioned a number of times this could have been user error. In my personal opinion reading through what has been said in this thread unfortunately the user error combined with the conditions the boat was operated in caused this incident.

Others have mentioned the knobs backing out over the course of the season. In my opinion these knobs should be checked prior to every use, not a few times a season.

I don't know if I dare comment... If I can play mediator for a moment? I read thru the most recent comments and I may be interpreting the conversation between @swatski and @Williamsone46 a little bit differently and may be able to defuse things... Maybe?

1) I don't think @Williamsone46 was implying or suggesting that you in particular had not checked your knobs. I think that was made clear in previous posts. Perhaps post that had fallen back a few pages that @Williamsone46 had not had an opportunity to read...? I think it was being suggested that those others who witnessed their knobs loosening may not have checked theirs...? Obviously you and they are the best witness and testimony as to whether or not that's the case. His statement was more an opinion and less of an accusation. "...knobs should be checked prior to each use..."

2) I think @Williamsone46 is trying to take a fact of the matter approach to the tower failure. Much the way I think it was approached by the Yamaha technician did, which I think there is room to argue with... but perhaps @Williamsone46 isn't the one to target with that argument. I apologize @Williamsone46 if I painted you as a target by mentioning you were a Yamaha rep...

3) @Williamsone46 "Yamaha's response" that has been referenced is simply that of the response to @swatski's warrantee issues. Which the majority here seem to disagree with. Yamaha has not addressed this thread in person.

4) @swatski in my short perspective of the jeboaters.net forum appears to be a fondly regarded member of the community here and has over the course developed a solid reputation as someone who "knows their stuff" (not saying other members don't) but I think that why there is so much support to help him fight his fight.

5) @swatski I think @Williamsone46 is genuine in his sympathies for what occurred.

6) We all have the ability to speculate - Who's to blame? - What's the cause? - Why is Yamaha saying what they're saying? Facts of the case are, Yamaha has placed the blame on the "USER" in regards to the tower. They've made a judgement... according to their technician. I think the major question that everyone here has is what recourse is there to argue with against "their" technician? Does the opinion or testimony of their client have any measure? Can an independent party be requested for an opinion? Or after his denial is @swatski left to seek legal representation? Is it worth it for Yamaha to sour the relationship with a customer like him and so many others who respect his opinion.

My own thoughts: As I've said before... I like my boat (2016 AR240) and I feel like everyone else should too. But now I feel like I have "one of those boats"... one of the boats that has the tower the fell on" the guy". I don't know how to respond to that now, because I have doubts about how reliable it is, because I don't feel like the actual cause has been identified. Other's here, even engineers, have their doubts... Mine has never had a problem... but could it? @swatski says he checked his knobs, it's the general consensus that he would have known if he had cross threaded it. He believes in his mind his tower was erected properly. I put mine up and down after each outing and have felt confident I have it erected properly each time and never given it a second thought. @swatski left that day feeling the same way, right up until it fell on top of him. We can sit here and argue with one another and take sides for weeks... But what is the answer??? Who do we trust to give it to us?


Anyway... there's a lot of thoughts bouncing thru my head. I could probably write another page. I still love my boat... but I'd love it more if the tower's had a little more security. I think Yamaha would be wise to address the possibility that if it happened once and partially happened a number of more times and it could happen again. Perhaps a simple warning and throwing the responsibility the "user" to know about it, isn't a good idea... not everybody is as responsible as us here.

By the way, I happened across this picture on my phone that I took a while back for something unrelated. There is some general warning about keeping the knobs tight. At least on my boat... Sorry, it's cut off.View attachment 62589

@J-RAD Holy shit dude! You just might be the smoothest talker I know! If only I could have these mediation services at my house to handle every argument with my wife from, why can't you just put the butter knife in the dishwasher, to, what do you want for dinner, to, you're on my side of the bed!!!! Can I just get your phone number, put that bad boy on speed dial, and conference you in when we have the next disagreement!!!!???

 

[Betik]

@J-RAD Holy shit dude! You just might be the smoothest talker I know! If only I could have these mediation services at my house to handle every argument with my wife from, why can't you just put the butter knife in the dishwasher, to, what do you want for dinner, to, you're on my side of the bed!!!! Can I just get your phone number, put that bad boy on speed dial, and conference you in when we have the next disagreement!!!!???

Second in line for @J-RAD services.

 

[J-RAD]

I knew I should have gone into Human Resource Management... or some shit like that...?

Maybe Trump will open up a position as secretary of state?

"Hey Kim Jung Un, it's your buddy J-RAD, let's talk about that haircut... It'd be pissed too! Let's just put that giant red nuclear launch button down for a sec...?"

"Let's open up trade with Japan and get you into a nice new Yamaha boat... Just not an AR though... those tower's are crap!"

 

[Betik]

LOL. @J-RAD I will step 3rd in line.
I have a vested interest to see the Korean peninsula a war free zone.

 

[Paul Early]

I'm a lawyer by day and not sure this claim is worthy of a lawyers time or expense. I would advise my client to file a small claims action which is usually capped around $10k in most states. It will cost you $100 bucks or so to file and serve Yamaha but it will cost them much more to send someone out to defend (In most states they cannot have an attorney appear in small claims). You have a contract (the warranty) and they are apparently in breach of that (the seat issue seems like a slam dunk). Let a judge decide. You have very little to lose and the more likely scenario is that they will either agree to repair if you drop the suit or not show up at the hearing and you will win by default. The forms and filing time would be less than you have invested in this thread. Go get em.

 

[BigN8]

I'm a lawyer by day and not sure this claim is worthy of a lawyers time or expense. I would advise my client to file a small claims action which is usually capped around $10k in most states. It will cost you $100 bucks or so to file and serve Yamaha but it will cost them much more to send someone out to defend (In most states they cannot have an attorney appear in small claims). You have a contract (the warranty) and they are apparently in breach of that (the seat issue seems like a slam dunk). Let a judge decide. You have very little to lose and the more likely scenario is that they will either agree to repair if you drop the suit or not show up at the hearing and you will win by default. The forms and filing time would be less than you have invested in this thread. Go get em.

And there you have it..........

 

[MrMoose]

http://www.judgejudy.com/submit_your_case

 

[swatski]

I'm a lawyer by day and not sure this claim is worthy of a lawyers time or expense. I would advise my client to file a small claims action which is usually capped around $10k in most states. It will cost you $100 bucks or so to file and serve Yamaha but it will cost them much more to send someone out to defend (In most states they cannot have an attorney appear in small claims). You have a contract (the warranty) and they are apparently in breach of that (the seat issue seems like a slam dunk). Let a judge decide. You have very little to lose and the more likely scenario is that they will either agree to repair if you drop the suit or not show up at the hearing and you will win by default. The forms and filing time would be less than you have invested in this thread. Go get em.

@Paul Early Thanks a bunch, really appreciate the advice! I must tell you, the level of support here in the forum continues to amaze me, members caring about others. That's been the main reason for me to stick around, and try to share my "newly acquired experience", to give something back.

You are absolutely correct (almost - barring the MO $5k cap). Incidentally, 5k would cover a replacement of the AR tower (uninstalled). But based on my quick review of parts fiches (and my dealer's work order which was never approved) fixing the boat to like new condition would run about twice the amount. Also need to factor in a necessary safety upgrade for the tower lock before I would sell or continue using the boat.

So, yeah, I do feel a bit stuck with this new boat of mine. Come to think of it.

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[swatski]

http://www.judgejudy.com/submit_your_case

Where is the "smart a$$" rating button when I need one?
You are funny.

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[CraigAR]

I agree with @Paul Early, it's bullcrap that they are not covering the warranty when they state this on their website
I would follow @Paul Early's advice and seek legal action. When Yamaha makes a claim that they build and stand behind every component on the boat, I can guarantee you that statement will push more people towards their brand to buy when they're looking into a jet boat purchases. Knowing now how they have treated you would of made me go in a different route when I purchased my 17' ar240. Don't get me wrong, I love my boat, but I also considered the "coverage" and that swayed my decision. I'm not sure how many other boats made that crossing with you but I do know that all of the issues you had was not because of rough waters or else everyone else would be in the same boat. Most likely your boat was put together on a Friday. Yamaha would not win this case. They can argue about user error on the tower even though the design sucks, but how can they explain all the other issues? Center windshield, seat, anchor locker. The first day I took out my 17', the damn anchor locker door kept opening and slamming shut. When I looked at it, the idiots didn't even have the latch lined up with the catch bar not to mention the damn hole in the anchor locker. There are so many things that yamaha' s QA misses. I believe you have a solid case and if I were in your shoes, they would be fixing it so they didn't have to deal with me. They need to realise how many people come to this site that are not even signed up to help make their boat purchase desicion. Sorry for dragging on, but for someone who takes care of their boat the way you and I do, better than new off the dealer lot, it pisses me off to see you being treated this way.

 

[djetok]

@Paul Early Thanks a bunch, really appreciate the advice! I must tell you, the level of support here in the forum continues to amaze me, members caring about others. That's been the main reason for me to stick around, and try to share my "newly acquired experience", to give something back.

You are absolutely correct (almost - barring the MO $5k cap). Incidentally, 5k would cover a replacement of the AR tower (uninstalled). But based on my quick review of parts fiches (and my dealer's work order which was never approved) fixing the boat to like new condition would run about twice the amount. Also need to factor in a necessary safety upgrade for the tower lock before I would sell or continue using the boat.

So, yeah, I do feel a bit stuck with this new boat of mine. Come to think of it.

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5k is better than 0 if it comes to that