2016 240 Ballast Setup Question: Valves?

[swatski]

Bummer! But even 1 smaller bag is equal to a couple of fat friends. Cam

I know! I'm not giving up, but how could not have looked "up"! Darned. I'm just glad I finally took a detailed look. In the older boats those compartments just open UP, but not in my model...
Now this is suddenly a lot more complicated, because now I have to design basically a piggy-back style system incorporating the wet storage compartments (which are higher up, coming on top of the back under-seat storage). Arghh.

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[swatski]

Forgot to take pictures of the inside the stern compartment, but there is also no way I can fit multiple intakes at the bottom that would permit filling on the go. There is so much less room there, terrible access! Should be possible to install 2-3 intakes, but those will have to be above the level of the ride plates. Not a huge deal, but now I definitely need to make them fast-filling.

I want to buy a 230!!!! LOL.

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[Chillypilot]

@swatski I'll trade ya my 230

 

[Mainah]

@swatski - I took measurements prior to putting the boat up for the season and looked at all of the different options. I considered a dual 3700 gph centrifugal pump system (one fill, one empty) with electric ball valves and impeller pump primer all controlled by an arduino. I also considered using flow meters or timing logic in the controller to automate the system and display everything on a touch screen. I even looked in banjo pumps just because I wanted to compare.

In the end I have decided to go with the simple multi impeller pump and rocker switch system when I finally do my install. The ski locker is ginormous and I did find a bag that will fill it which will be great for wake boarding wakes when full. I came to the same conclusion as you on the side sacks so those will be 400 lb sacks. Lastly I will plumb quick connects for a swim deck bag. So 4 bags, 4 impeller pumps, and 4 rocker switches. All bags except for the swim deck will be vented. I have not settled on the intake(s) but that will either be a single 1.5 inch or multiple 1 inch for me.

On the inflating with air to reduce engine noise front you could always try a tube inflator with the bags to see if that works.

It will be a while before I get around to mine with lots of competing priorities for me this year so I am looking forward to seeing what you do.

 

[Mainah]

Here is a method of using just a switch
View attachment 52213
And here is how you can use 3 auto relays with the switch
View attachment 52214

I am not confident that you could use a rocker switch for that many amps (about 25) and have it live a long happy life without giving you grief later. In my world that would be a non starter. Be interesting the hear others long term experiences. If you use the wakemakers premade switch connector the wiring would be easy. Cam.

I am curious as to why you prefer a relay over a switch if they are both rated to handle the load. A relay is just a electromagnetic operated switch after all. I just dabble in electronics so I always like to learn more.

 

[swatski]

@swatski - I took measurements prior to putting the boat up for the season and looked at all of the different options. I considered a dual 3700 gph centrifugal pump system (one fill, one empty) with electric ball valves and impeller pump primer all controlled by an arduino. I also considered using flow meters or timing logic in the controller to automate the system and display everything on a touch screen. I even looked in banjo pumps just because I wanted to compare.

In the end I have decided to go with the simple multi impeller pump and rocker switch system when I finally do my install. The ski locker is ginormous and I did find a bag that will fill it which will be great for wake boarding wakes when full. I came to the same conclusion as you on the side sacks so those will be 400 lb sacks. Lastly I will plumb quick connects for a swim deck bag. So 4 bags, 4 impeller pumps, and 4 rocker switches. All bags except for the swim deck will be vented. I have not settled on the intake(s) but that will either be a single 1.5 inch or multiple 1 inch for me.

On the inflating with air to reduce engine noise front you could always try a tube inflator with the bags to see if that works.

It will be a while before I get around to mine with lots of competing priorities for me this year so I am looking forward to seeing what you do.

Thanks, @Mainah, that helps!

I realized I will need to maximize the ski locker. It really IS ginormous at about 90" long, and a real saving grace. Wakemakers offers a big 1100 something lbs bag, or even two 750lbs or something. And yes, a dedicated pump/intake for an aux/platform bag is a very good idea.

Regarding intakes, I'm having a hard time deciding. On one hand, a nice 1.5" intake with a shutoff valve (like @KXCam22) would be great, but then I need a manifold. On the other hand, we already have like ten different OEM holes there, anyway, with really pathetic plastic fittings (to put it charitably). So - what's the big deal installing extra three or four that would actually be properly set up and sealed? IDK.

There is a squarish/box-like part of the stern/transom that would be great for intakes install, it sits right above the rudder (I mean, the "articulating keel", LOL). The only issue would be - it's not amenable to filling on the fly. But with a fast system it really wouldn't matter that much to me anyway, as we always take at least few minutes to stop and get ready.

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[dan144k]

@swatski
Idea, someone should design a hard ballast tank the size of the lower swim deck.

Could make it 4 or 6 inches tall. Make it strong enough to sit and walk on. And then just put seadek on top of it. Weight would be maximed at rear of boat. No more loss of storage inside the boat.

You could even make it split level, 2 inch in the rear half and 8 inch for the front half. So the swim deck is still effective.

 

[KXCam22]

Filling on the fly is not that big of a deal Our tanks are filled before we are ready to surf, and decide who gets to go first. @Mainah, the rocker switches are probably fine. I know the wakeboat guy use them. My hesitation is that an electric motor runs on magnetism, and to magnetize before it starts a DC motor can draw up to 4X its normal current for .2sec. So a 25A motor will draw 100 amps, each time it is switched. The rocker switches are usually plain copper contacts (not HP rated) whereas the relays are usually an silver coated contact designed to handle the inrush of a motor. The rocker switches will work, but my choice is to only use them to control the relays. A minor extra cost for longevity. Essentially you design a large wire power circuit, 2 relays per pump, fused accordingly, to power the pumps, and then a small wire control circuit with the switches. Here is an easy pump circuit using 2 auto relays. Note that in the un-energized state both motor poles are grounded (safe). Hope this helps. Cam.

 

[Mainah]

Filling on the fly is not that big of a deal Our tanks are filled before we are ready to surf, and decide who gets to go first. @Mainah, the rocker switches are probably fine. I know the wakeboat guy use them. My hesitation is that an electric motor runs on magnetism, and to magnetize before it starts a DC motor can draw up to 4X its normal current for .2sec. So a 25A motor will draw 100 amps, each time it is switched. The rocker switches are usually plain copper contacts (not HP rated) whereas the relays are usually an silver coated contact designed to handle the inrush of a motor. The rocker switches will work, but my choice is to only use them to control the relays. A minor extra cost for longevity. Essentially you design a large wire power circuit, 2 relays per pump, fused accordingly, to power the pumps, and then a small wire control circuit with the switches. Here is an easy pump circuit using 2 auto relays. Note that in the un-energized state both motor poles are grounded (safe). Hope this helps. Cam.
View attachment 52305

Learned something new today. Thanks.

 

[KXCam22]

Also, keep in mind that the Wakeboats predominantly use aerator style pumps which only draw about 4 amps, vs the vane style that draw 25A. Makes quite a difference to the longevity of a switch. I have blown the 30A fuse on mine and had to upgrade to 40A fuses. Cam.

ps if you use this cable you don't even need to fill the bags.

 

[buckbuck]

@KXCam22
500 kcmil?
Are 85 and 86 the coil on your drawing?

 

[KXCam22]

750MCM. Yes 85 and 86 are the coil. Cam.

 

[buckbuck]

You are old school. We aren't suppose to use the term MCM anymore.

 

[swatski]

I think I might go with the Wakemakers' wiring kit.

And then use MCM, I mean KCMIL, for extra ballast.

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[Mainah]

With 4 pumps one roll of this would probally work and keep things clean.

Outdoor Speaker Wire | 50 Feet | 12AWG CL3 Rated 4-Conductor Wire Black Oxygen Free ... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MT8LJAD/ref=cm_sw_r_sms_c_api_-0QVyb14SYBAS

 

[KXCam22]

I think you can do better and cheaper without the kit. I would suggest rolls of automotive wire #12 minimum or #10 best, or the extension cord material (SOW). The speaker wire will work fine but usually does not have the heat resistance or abrasion resistance of automotive type wire. You could argue about YABC codes but I mostly ignore that. To be super technocrat, if you are wiring in the engine compartment, likely where the pumps will mount, the wire and components should be rated for such a location, ie non-sparking in a potential gas-vapour environment YABC rated etc etc etc. I think as long as you use decent wire and components things will be fine. I am tying not to rain on your parade but getting the right components is not that much more expensive, and could be safer and more reliable in the long run. An easy trick to clean up the wiring is to layout out your + and - wires and put them in the chuck of your cordless drill. Then you can spin them up and make a nice twisted pair that stays together and is easy to work with. I do that all the time and it works great. When you connect to the pumps I would suggest some blade connectors so you can remove the pumps for maintenance. Then use blade for pos and socket for neg so that you cant accidentally hook up the pump backwards. Cam.

 

[Mainah]

I think you can do better and cheaper without the kit. I would suggest rolls of automotive wire #12 minimum or #10 best, or the extension cord material (SOW). The speaker wire will work fine but usually does not have the heat resistance or abrasion resistance of automotive type wire. You could argue about YABC codes but I mostly ignore that. To be super technocrat, if you are wiring in the engine compartment, likely where the pumps will mount, the wire and components should be rated for such a location, ie non-sparking in a potential gas-vapour environment YABC rated etc etc etc. I think as long as you use decent wire and components things will be fine. I am tying not to rain on your parade but getting the right components is not that much more expensive, and could be safer and more reliable in the long run. An easy trick to clean up the wiring is to layout out your + and - wires and put them in the chuck of your cordless drill. Then you can spin them up and make a nice twisted pair that stays together and is easy to work with. I do that all the time and it works great. When you connect to the pumps I would suggest some blade connectors so you can remove the pumps for maintenance. Then use blade for pos and socket for neg so that you cant accidentally hook up the pump backwards. Cam.

Time for me to learn again. I thought cl-3 wire was pretty good stuff rated for in wall with good pull strength, flexibility, abrasion resistance, and casing life. Granted cl-3p ( p for plenum) would be rated for more heat. Is there that big a difference between cl-3 and automotive though? Of course I would never recommend normal speaker wire for any real load.

 

[Mainah]

So I found this attachment online and did some math. Lets say the vertical distance we are lifting the water with the pump is 4 feet which would equal about .12 bar of vacuum. The manual shows that the continuous duty draw would be 13 amps. The 25 amp rating is for when the water has to be lifted a greater amount and therefore a stronger vacuum is needed. This also shows the impact on volume when having to draw a greater vacuum. So the goal should be to get the pumps fairly low in the engine bay to allow for better flow rate and less tax on the batteries. I wonder if a 1.5 inch intake impacts this if only running one pump to draw water through it such as when only filling one bag? My guess is that because having to pull a great volume it would have an impact so if running a manifold one would want the manifold below the water line? If I am on the right track with that 4 one inch intakes would be better that a 1.5 inch if the manifold had to be above the water line. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable about pumps can chime in.

Also note that Johnson has included the recommend wire gauge based on feet of run given the maximum load but we will not be anywhere near the maximum load determined by how high we are lifting the water. Johnson does recommend just as our own @KXCam22 using relays to shorten the main leaders. the manual also warns that running into a closed outlet or dry will burn up the pump so make sure your bags are vented and that any intake valves are open. Last note is that the english section of the manual starts a few pages down.

 

[KXCam22]

That looks like the paperwork that came with my pumps. Good pumps. On mine I just sized everything for the max 25A ampacity, regardless of pump draw. Mine are mounted in the typical spot besides the motor, and so are about 18" above waterline. My intake is 12" below waterline which I estimated gives about a 1psi boost. I have blown a 30 fuse at least once and upgraded to a 40A, so the motors can draw their full ampacity at times. The main reason for running large wire in DC installs is to reduce voltage drop. I used #10 and my wires are about 25' long round trip. Typical is 3% but less is better. Since the motor is basically a power device, a higher wire resistance (read small wire) causes a V drop at the motor. The KW capacity is fixed, so the motor will draw more amps than intended, following the formula P=IV. Lower the V and the I must increase to keep the P the same. Same reason the batteries in my new TT won't charge. The OEM wire is soo small that I get a 2.5V drop by the time it gets to the battery. It leaves at charger at 14.5V and gets to my batteries at 12.0V, hence no real charging happens. Cam.

 

[Mainah]

Good info. So here is what I am thinking for my install when I get around to it given what I have learned. Run 4 awg with an inline 100 amp breaker direct from the batteries to a 4 way distribution block with 40 amp relays for each output right by the pumps. Run 10 awg from the distribution block to relays then to the pumps. Run small power wire to the switches and small multi conductor wire from the switches to the relays. Of course one could get fancy with this setup and run an 8 channel wifi or bluetooth controlled relay board as opposed to the switches but I like dedicated controls.

Seems complicated but I get how that will make the pumps slightly more efficient than 10 or 12 awg direct from helm mounted rockers. That still leaves the intake question. I have to believe it is easier to draw a vacuum on less volume so the only way I would use a 1.5 inch intake is if I can keep the distribution to the 4 one inch lines below the water line.

I am now following Cam.