2016 240 Ballast Setup Question: Valves?

[KXCam22]

Just thinking. To shorten the power wiring as much as possible you could mount 8 relays in a plastic box beside the battery (assuming 4 pumps). I am guessing that the battery is close to the engines, I only know the 230 boats. The power wiring would be the shortest possible, battery loc to pumps, and then a few smaller wires to the helm for the switches. An excellent wire to use for the switches is old computer serial cable, a multiconductor 20ga cable. For 4 switches ( double action) and 1 fused power wire you would need 9 wires. This cable is often available for free as scrap. My office has tons lying around from the old days when serial comm was king. I put my relays in a box under the helm and had to run all the power wires the length of the boat, plus a heavy main power wire to the helm - maybe not the smartest way. Hope this helps. Cam.

PS. Wow Mainah you posted what I was thinking.

 

[Mainah]

Just thinking. To shorten the power wiring as much as possible you could mount 8 relays in a plastic box beside the battery (assuming 4 pumps). I am guessing that the battery is close to the engines, I only know the 230 boats. The power wiring would be the shortest possible, battery loc to pumps, and then a few smaller wires to the helm for the switches. An excellent wire to use for the switches is old computer serial cable, a multiconductor 20ga cable. For 4 switches ( double action) and 1 fused power wire you would need 9 wires. This cable is often available for free as scrap. My office has tons lying around from the old days when serial comm was king. I put my relays in a box under the helm and had to run all the power wires the length of the boat, plus a heavy main power wire to the helm - maybe not the smartest way. Hope this helps. Cam.

PS. Wow Mainah you posted what I was thinking.

Yep looks like we posted near the same time. Thanks for educated and experienced input. Lots of added effort to do it that way but will be a much better engineered system.

 

[KXCam22]

I think you will find with the pumps that they will draw equal vacuum on any size intake. Might be different if you used a 4" intake, but I think that within the range of 1" to 1.5" it would be the same. All you need to worry about is flow rate, and of course the difficulty in installing it. A 1" through-hull with a spigot and a hose attached is pretty easy to install, although it complicates it when you need 4. On the other hand the much larger 1.5" through-hull fitting is quite long (mine was) on the threaded part. I had to cut it off and then since they are all straight thread, and all pipe fittings are tapered thread, you have to re-tap it to make the straight into a tapered thread. You might just be able to jam it together with some sealant too. Here is a pic of mine - not much room. I should have rotated the valve and attached a rod to the end of the handle to actuate it with. Cam.

 

[swatski]

I think you will find with the pumps that they will draw equal vacuum on any size intake. Might be different if you used a 4" intake, but I think that within the range of 1" to 1.5" it would be the same. All you need to worry about is flow rate, and of course the difficulty in installing it. A 1" through-hull with a spigot and a hose attached is pretty easy to install, although it complicates it when you need 4. On the other hand the much larger 1.5" through-hull fitting is quite long (mine was) on the threaded part. I had to cut it off and then since they are all straight thread, and all pipe fittings are tapered thread, you have to re-tap it to make the straight into a tapered thread. You might just be able to jam it together with some sealant too. Here is a pic of mine - not much room. I should have rotated the valve and attached a rod to the end of the handle to actuate it with. Cam.View attachment 52387

This is giving me nightmares, LOL.
I will take some pics of that compartment if I don't forget. @Mainah I don't know if you have had a chance to look inside the stern in your boat, yet... it is VERY cramped.

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[Mainah]

@swatski I sure have looked down there and no doubt it is tight. I don't look foward to being upside down in that space to make it happen and bet I will have to remove one of the water boxes to get it done. I got to thinking more. The inside diameter of the pump openings in only .5 inch so two 1 inch lines teed into 2 pumps each should do the trick. My only concern with vacuum efficiency on a larger pipe is not for when all pumps are running but when only one is running. It does require more draw to pull a vaccum on a larger volume in the same amount of time. I am not sure what the real world difference would be but my bet is that 2 one inch lines will be a whole lot easier to install.

 

[swatski]

@swatski I sure have looked down there and no doubt it is tight. I don't look foward to being upside down in that space to make it happen and bet I will have to remove one of the water boxes to get it done. I got to thinking more. The inside diameter of the pump openings in only .5 inch so two 1 inch lines teed into 2 pumps each should do the trick. My only concern with vacuum efficiency on a larger pipe is not for when all pumps are running but when only one is running. It does require more draw to pull a vaccum on a larger volume in the same amount of time. I am not sure what the real world difference would be but my bet is that 2 one inch lines will be a whole lot easier to install.

That is exactly what I'm thinking. Which, unfortunately, is a departure from a one pump per bag with no intake valves plan...

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[Mainah]

That is exactly what I'm thinking. Which, unfortunately, is a departure from a one pump per bag with no intake valves plan...

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Don't think I understand that or perhaps I did not explain my thoughts well enough. 2- one inch intakes running into the engine compartment in one Tee fitting each. Two lines off of each Tee fitting into what is then 4 pumps feeding 4 bags. 4 -one inch vent lines with check vales one from each bag then run to 4 side vents with check valves or to Tees and 2 side vents with check valves. You could skip the vents but then fill times would take longer you would not have the easy to know when fully from water pouring out the vent and you risk burning up a pump. You could also skip the check valves if you don't need the tight shrivel effect. My guess is that with highly engineered wiring and two one inch intakes we will likely fill and drain larger bags faster than the factory 242x setup. I figure the landed cost for pumps, wiring, wiring distribution block, fuses, and switches is about $800 - $900. Then add bags and plumbing for another $800 - $900. Add 10% and a case of wine for the wife so figure on a $2k budget for the whole project. Yep this project may have to wait a while for me.

Why would intake valves be needed?

 

[swatski]

Don't think I understand that or perhaps I did not explain my thoughts well enough. 2- one inch intakes running into the engine compartment in one Tee fitting each. Two lines off of each Tee fitting into what is then 4 pumps feeding 4 bags. 4 -one inch vent lines with check vales one from each bag then run to 4 side vents with check valves or to Tees and 2 side vents with check valves. You could skip the vents but then fill times would take longer you would not have the easy to know when fully from water pouring out the vent and you risk burning up a pump. You could also skip the check valves if you don't need the tight shrivel effect. My guess is that with highly engineered wiring and two one inch intakes we will likely fill and drain larger bags faster than the factory 242x setup. I figure the landed cost for pumps, wiring, wiring distribution block, fuses, and switches is about $800 - $900. Then add bags and plumbing for another $800 - $900. Add 10% and a case of wine for the wife so figure on a $2k budget for the whole project. Yep this project may have to wait a while for me.

Why would intake valves be needed?

It was a long day at work, I guess I wasn't thinking strait - yes that will work with 4 pumps. So, thank you - no intake valves.

I think you may be a bit off on the costs, though.

The cost of a good pump alone is about $250-300 a piece, the Wakemakers best (king something) is $320 or so; add wire, switches (and possibly timers - see below) - I am closer to $350-400 a set. And for me - if I do throw in the towel and just buy their darned harnesses and timers - I am definitely closer to $500 a set if not more...

With pluming and fittings, I noticed they have a funny way of showing their prices, when you look in their online store it usually says "from" and lists the lowest price, usually irrelevant. But, hopefully 1k would cover that and bags.

I am still wondering about venting. I know it's good to have vents. But, it is also a major PIA with more than double the pluming.
I am toying with an idea of putting all pumps on those Wakemakers timers (which can be restarted on a switch with no reprogramming, and adjusted with a screwdriver) and hooking the bags up, unvented. There are some risks but I believe that timers mitigate those a lot (I forgot if the OEM X-series bags are vented or not). Someone talk me out of it!

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[Mainah]

I would be using the Johnson ballast pumps because they are cheaper and have only nominally less output. I would not use wake makers wiring harnesses after @KXCam22 got me thinking. The pumps will run more efficiently and possibly move more water faster with proper power distribution and that is way cheaper than the 100 bucks per pump that wakemakers wants for their harness. Their timer is also over priced. You can get your own 12 volt timer digital relay boards (kind of like the ones for my push button start mod) on amazon for 8 bucks if you still want to do that. If for no other reason you will have faster fill times if you have vents (less pressure on the outlet end (even a little will make a difference). Don't get me wrong I am going to buy my pumps, bags, switches (they have those custom printed actuators), and plumbing from Wakemakers. My 40 amp relays and power distribution block will come from amazon . My power wire will come from knukonceptz, and my switch wire will probably come from a scrap cord I have hanging around.

It will be a lot of work just building the power distribution/relay board with 8 relays but I love wiring so it will be a great project for me when I can find the time and budget for it. I can certainly see the allure of just using the plug and play harnesses from Wakemakers if you don't like wiring.

 

[swatski]

I would be using the Johnson ballast pumps because they are cheaper and have only nominally less output. I would not use wake makers wiring harnesses after @KXCam22 got me thinking. The pumps will run more efficiently and possibly move more water faster with proper power distribution and that is way cheaper than the 100 bucks per pump that wakemakers wants for their harness. Their timer is also over priced. You can get your own 12 volt timer digital relay boards (kind of like the ones for my push button start mod) on amazon for 8 bucks if you still want to do that. If for no other reason you will have faster fill times if you have vents (less pressure on the outlet end (even a little will make a difference). Don't get me wrong I am going to buy my pumps, bags, switches (they have those custom printed actuators), and plumbing from Wakemakers. My 40 amp relays and power distribution block will come from amazon . My power wire will come from knukonceptz, and my switch wire will probably come from a scrap cord I have hanging around.

It will be a lot of work just building the power distribution/relay board with 8 relays but I love wiring so it will be a great project for me when I can find the time and budget for it. I can certainly see the allure of just using the plug and play harnesses from Wakemakers if you don't like wiring.

Well, I don't see Johnson pumps offered by Wakemakers anymore. What's with that? I'll give them a call and report back, but need to educate myself - last time I called them I ended up with way too many items in my cart (that I can probably do without), LOL.

Don't get me wrong, I totally envy you guys @Mainah @KXCam22, and there is no question your electrical harness designs are superior to anything OTS, and no question Wakemakers pricing on those is total BS. I will make an attempt to follow what you guys proposed here; however I need to be mentally prepared to throw in the towel, lots of things can go wrong with a 3,000 lbs ballast system.

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[KXCam22]

Swatski,
We will be happy to help you through any wiring and piping confusion to save you some $$. Between all of us on the board, we can identify the parts of the system that worked well, and the parts that were the hardest. For me the hardest part was climbing inside the cavity where the rear bags go and grinding down all the screw points sticking inside, all from the hull rail. I am not small and it took all of my caving and confined space training to not panic when wedged in there (upside down, in the dark, have to pee, etc) with a grinder. The 230 has a lot of screw points sticking in there. Then I padded the bags inside a roll of old kitchen lino that I got for free. It was far too ugly to use in a kitchen but looks nice wrapped around a ballast bag. Biggest cost are pumps and bags, the rest is relatively inexpensive. You can use pond hose instead of ballast hose. For my system what I got from wakemakers was, the throughull fitting, 3 bags, 2 pumps, 3 check valves, and the bag quick connect fittings, 1" for connection and 3/4" for vents. The rest came from the lawn sprinkler shop, and the heater hose from a Lordco. I doubt I spent more than $1500 CAD on my system. I would also skip the timers. Not necessary and although I have ones programmed in, they have never had to activate in the 3 seasons I have used the system. If you use relays, you can also skip the expensive pump switches and use automotive rocker switches from Cole Hersee. This is the power wire I used, I think from a Lordco. Cam.

 

[KXCam22]

Mainah,
I you want to make a cheap power distribution block and are not worried about it looking beautiful, a simple way to do it with a 1/4" ring terminal on the end of your main power wire(#6) and then ring terminal on the end of the fuse holders that connect to power the relays, then use a 1/4" bolt to bolt it all together, and tape it up to insulate it. You would use these fuse holders. If the main power wire is short enough you don't even have to fuse it with a main fuse. Cam.

 

[swatski]

Let's keep on mind @KXCam22 also makes his own surfboards!!!
This is awesome.

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[dan144k]

For me the hardest part was climbing inside the cavity where the rear bags go and grinding down all the screw points sticking inside, all from the hull rail.

The way I got around all the grinding and cutting bolts; is I took some say 1" by 2" lumber, like fur strips. If I was covering 1 hole, I made the piece about 2" long drilled a hole where the bolt would be, and then caulked it over the screw, tape the wood on over night and you are puncture proof.

If it had 2 holes, I drilled 2 holes in a longer piece of wood. Also I used a grinder and rounded the edges on the wood.

Protects the bags from puncture, but the caulk and wood could be pulled off the carpet, if you ever needed access to screw.

 

[swatski]

The way I got around all the grinding and cutting bolts; is I took some say 1" by 2" lumber, like fur strips. If I was covering 1 hole, I made the piece about 2" long drilled a hole where the bolt would be, and then caulked it over the screw, tape the wood on over night and you are puncture proof.

If it had 2 holes, I drilled 2 holes in a longer piece of wood. Also I used a grinder and rounded the edges on the wood.

Protects the bags from puncture, but the caulk and wood could be pulled off the carpet, if you ever needed access to screw.

@dan144k can you please re-post the pic, if you have one.

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[Mainah]

I would think a Dremel with a cut off wheel would work quite nicely on those little screws.

Edit: and of course cover with some ensolite.

 

[swatski]

Okay, one more question concerning pump placement.
Would jabsco/johnson still prime and work if mounted in those stern storage compartments? Is it way too high? Those would be at about the level of upper swim platform, don't know exactly how high above the water line, it would be less than the nominal 1.2m max. I would love to use those locations for several reasons, as an alternative to inside the engine compartment.

The new 240s engine bay is REALLY cramped:


Sure, there is enough room, but 4 pumps with 1" hose - it is a challenge.
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[Mainah]

It not too high but I would not want them mounted there. I was thinking two pumps each side. Keep the twin theme going. It there someplace to mount them in the bilge?

 

[dan144k]

@swatski
Best picture I could find with boat in storage 6 hrs away. I think the wood is 3/4" thick. Just caulk it to the carpet over the bolt threads and it will protect the bags

 

[swatski]

@swatski
Best picture I could find with boat in storage 6 hrs away. I think the wood is 3/4" thick. Just caulk it to the carpet over the bolt threads and it will protect the bags

Brilliant

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