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Coronavirus

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We've kept ourselves locked down as tight as we possibly can. Our kids are getting more and more irritated at us for keeping them locked down as well.

I'm even avoiding hobbies - like wood working.

I'm doing all of this to do my part to slow the spread and not unnecessarily risk a hospital visit.

BUT - and this is a really big BUT - At some point, one must ask the question "How much liberty are you willing to give up for a sense of safety?"

When I hear about neighbors reporting neighbors for things like a social gathering, my first thought is "Oh, did they get a free Brown Shirt when they submitted the report?"

I don't care what party you back, whether you're conservative or liberal, republican or democrat, you MUST keep watch. There are MANY sets of eyes on this right now - both in power and not in power - that are paying VERY close attention to the American People's reaction to being stripped of liberty in the name of public safety.

Once they see what manipulates us, what makes neighbor report on neighbor in times of a crisis, they can plan and ponder.

They want to see what will make us follow extra rules "for a little while." Does a virus do it? What about forest fires? How about terrorist attacks? War? Famine? Dust Bowl? Flood?

These are/were all real events that give certain people a chance to observe our behavior.

They want to see which rules Law Enforcement Officer's are willing to enforce. My Dad was a cop for 17 years. My uncle for nearly 40. My cousin will be retiring soon from Michigan State Police. None of them would have done much more than make some notes in a book either.

Here's the thing though: The totalitarian societies of history simply got rid of the LEO's unwilling to be thugs and replaced them with ones who were. There's always someone willing to be a bully. Certain people thrive on it. This has been used to the advantage of dictators throughout history.

History repeats Boys and Girls - and every time it does, the people at the time thought "That will never happen here in this modern society. We're not savages like they were. We're enlightened." That thinking dates back to before the Roman Empire.

Now.... Please don't read this as "Go do what you want." Please don't read this as "The whole thing is a hoax." I believe that this virus is a real threat - just as the others I mentioned above - and that we are doing the right thing by locking down.

I am simply stating the cold hard facts: People are watching. There is nothing we can do about it, but you must acknowledge it. You must be aware of it and be prepared to speak up - before the reality of being beaten down for doing so comes to pass.

I'm not paranoid about it or losing sleep. I know it's always been true and always will be true until the end of the world.

Our duty as free people is to ensure that freedom is here for the next generation. That means recognizing the signs AT THE BEGINNING and speaking up. Once the thing has escalated and it's clear for all to see what has happened.... well... it's too late.

So: Do the right thing and lock down. Be upset when you see others that don't lock down - they are potentially endangering themselves and others, but be OUTRAGED when people take it upon themselves to report it to the authorities - especially under the cowardly cloak of anonymity. THOSE people are the long-term danger to our society - more than any virus, flood, or fire ever could be. They desire to use the rule of law as a sword rather than a shield - while peaking with a clever grin from behind the heavy drapes.

Alright. Getting off my soapbox. I hope no one took this as political because I don't trust any particular party as far as I can throw them. One simply is moving roughly in the direction that seems appropriate to me at the moment.

Sorry if this seemed like a rant (I guess it was), but I seem to have time on my hands.... Maybe we should talk sports... oh.... wait..... :banghead:
 
@biglar155 I believe Bastiat, Ben Franklin, and Thomas Jefferson would agree. While we are doing this ultimately to protect ourselves, do not forget to get back to the way it was when it’s over.

"Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government's purposes are beneficient...The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well meaning but without understanding."
-- Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis​
 
We've kept ourselves locked down as tight as we possibly can. Our kids are getting more and more irritated at us for keeping them locked down as well.

I'm even avoiding hobbies - like wood working.

I'm doing all of this to do my part to slow the spread and not unnecessarily risk a hospital visit.

BUT - and this is a really big BUT - At some point, one must ask the question "How much liberty are you willing to give up for a sense of safety?"

When I hear about neighbors reporting neighbors for things like a social gathering, my first thought is "Oh, did they get a free Brown Shirt when they submitted the report?"

You won the internet yesterday my friend with this post. Wish I could be so cogent. Well said and lots of food for thought.
 
You won the internet yesterday my friend with this post. Wish I could be so cogent. Well said and lots of food for thought.
You won the internet yesterday my friend with this post. Wish I could be so cogent. Well said and lots of food for thought.

Thanks. Still a little surprised I hit the "Post" button honestly. :)
 
They desire to use the rule of law as a sword rather than a shield

This is an eloquent and insightful statement. Never thought about these two different approaches to the law, enforcement, and its role in our society.
 
We've kept ourselves locked down as tight as we possibly can. Our kids are getting more and more irritated at us for keeping them locked down as well.

I'm even avoiding hobbies - like wood working.

I'm doing all of this to do my part to slow the spread and not unnecessarily risk a hospital visit.

BUT - and this is a really big BUT - At some point, one must ask the question "How much liberty are you willing to give up for a sense of safety?"

When I hear about neighbors reporting neighbors for things like a social gathering, my first thought is "Oh, did they get a free Brown Shirt when they submitted the report?"

I don't care what party you back, whether you're conservative or liberal, republican or democrat, you MUST keep watch. There are MANY sets of eyes on this right now - both in power and not in power - that are paying VERY close attention to the American People's reaction to being stripped of liberty in the name of public safety.

Once they see what manipulates us, what makes neighbor report on neighbor in times of a crisis, they can plan and ponder.

They want to see what will make us follow extra rules "for a little while." Does a virus do it? What about forest fires? How about terrorist attacks? War? Famine? Dust Bowl? Flood?

These are/were all real events that give certain people a chance to observe our behavior.

They want to see which rules Law Enforcement Officer's are willing to enforce. My Dad was a cop for 17 years. My uncle for nearly 40. My cousin will be retiring soon from Michigan State Police. None of them would have done much more than make some notes in a book either.

Here's the thing though: The totalitarian societies of history simply got rid of the LEO's unwilling to be thugs and replaced them with ones who were. There's always someone willing to be a bully. Certain people thrive on it. This has been used to the advantage of dictators throughout history.

History repeats Boys and Girls - and every time it does, the people at the time thought "That will never happen here in this modern society. We're not savages like they were. We're enlightened." That thinking dates back to before the Roman Empire.

Now.... Please don't read this as "Go do what you want." Please don't read this as "The whole thing is a hoax." I believe that this virus is a real threat - just as the others I mentioned above - and that we are doing the right thing by locking down.

I am simply stating the cold hard facts: People are watching. There is nothing we can do about it, but you must acknowledge it. You must be aware of it and be prepared to speak up - before the reality of being beaten down for doing so comes to pass.

I'm not paranoid about it or losing sleep. I know it's always been true and always will be true until the end of the world.

Our duty as free people is to ensure that freedom is here for the next generation. That means recognizing the signs AT THE BEGINNING and speaking up. Once the thing has escalated and it's clear for all to see what has happened.... well... it's too late.

So: Do the right thing and lock down. Be upset when you see others that don't lock down - they are potentially endangering themselves and others, but be OUTRAGED when people take it upon themselves to report it to the authorities - especially under the cowardly cloak of anonymity. THOSE people are the long-term danger to our society - more than any virus, flood, or fire ever could be. They desire to use the rule of law as a sword rather than a shield - while peaking with a clever grin from behind the heavy drapes.

Alright. Getting off my soapbox. I hope no one took this as political because I don't trust any particular party as far as I can throw them. One simply is moving roughly in the direction that seems appropriate to me at the moment.

Sorry if this seemed like a rant (I guess it was), but I seem to have time on my hands.... Maybe we should talk sports... oh.... wait..... :banghead:
Some of this I agree with, and some of this I don't. Not sure I would classify this as "cold hard facts"....more opinion. I think what American society struggles with in times like these are the difference between "Liberty" and "Entitlement". I told my friends early on that the US would screw this thing up. Because of our sense of entitlement and greed to keep the economy pumping we would not be able to make the sacrifice China did to really lock this thing down. And the sad thing is, we are still on that same path. Even after we have surpassed China in numbers, we still refuse to lock down the public to get this thing under control. Lowes and Home Depot are having record sales weeks right now. These 2 stores are perfect examples of how we as "FREE" Americans just can't sacrifice our way of living, even for 2 weeks for the greater good. Oh no, we have to go to Lowe's and get flowers and mulch because we are bored and need something to do. My 21 year old daughter lives 10 minutes away with her boyfriend. I have only seen her twice in 3 weeks, and even then I did not hug her and I stayed 6 feet away. So, does it piss me off to see entitled Americans having block parties in the neighborhood when I am not even hugging my own daughter???? You're damn right it does. Honestly, the people that feel they are above the rest and want to party on.....I hope they get what they deserve.

I guess a military background just makes it easier for me to listen, understand, act, and sacrifice more than most. Based on our current policies in the US to handle this thing, we are in for a long and painful shit show.
 
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@biglar155 .....While I don't have quite the tendencies you post about....I am typically VERY outraged when someone reports me for "wrong doing" and I'm not actually doing wrong. I'm not so much upset about the concern, or the lack of understanding. I'm more concerned with the premise that they are either too afraid of me, too ashamed of what they are doing, or otherwise felt they couldn't just come talk it through. If it was a big enough deal to call the cops, why was it not a big enough deal to stop and talk to us. If you're going to be outraged, by dammit, be outraged, don't half-ass that, get out of the car and come say it to my face. We'll talk it through from there. It's not like we were brandishing guns, and they needed backup, we were walking around with tumblers full of bourbon and coke, and Miller Lite.

@BigN8 I hope your block party reference wasn't aimed at me. I don't think it was, but it was enough of a possibility I feel the need to response. I'm sorry you can't see or hug your daughter. That sucks. However, much to @biglar155 's points, when does your ability to listen, understand, act, and sacrifice become too much for you to bear for the greater good? We all have a line in the sand at some point that we must draw, where we must decide what is acceptable and what is not, and how that impacts our ability to be good neighbors, citizens, friends, workers, and persons. For us, these four families, the risks of our "block party" are acceptable to maintain some normalcy in our life during these otherwise very uncertain times. These risks weren't taken lightly, without discussion and buy in from the group, or in a vacuum of inconsideration to the outside world. We took our own ability to listen, understand, act, and sacrifice and made the best decision for us, as I'm sure you do for yourself on a daily basis.
 
Some of this I agree with, and some of this I don't. Not sure I would classify this as "cold hard facts"....more opinion. I think what American society struggles with in times like these are the difference between "Liberty" and "Entitlement". I told my friends early on that the US would screw this thing up. Because of our sense of entitlement and greed to keep the economy pumping we would not be able to make the sacrifice China did to really lock this thing down. And the sad thing is, we are still on that same path. Even after we have surpassed China in numbers, we still refuse to lock down the public to get this thing under control. Lowes and Home Depot are having record sales weeks right now. These 2 stores are perfect examples of how we as "FREE" Americans just can't sacrifice our way of living, even for 2 weeks for the greater good. Oh no, we have to go to Lowe's and get flowers and mulch because we are bored and need something to do. My 21 year old daughter lives 10 minutes away with her boyfriend. I have only seen her twice in 3 weeks, and even then I did not hug her and I stayed 6 feet away. So, does it piss me off to see entitled Americans having block parties in the neighborhood when I am not even hugging my own daughter???? You're damn right it does. Honestly, the people that feel they are above the rest and want to party on.....I hope they get what they deserve.

I guess a military background just makes it easier for me to listen, understand, act, and sacrifice more than most. Based on our current policies in the US to handle this thing, we are in for a long and painful shit show.
Problem is China was welding apartment building doors shut, and using a totalitarian communist regime to control movement. Nothing really new there, anyone over 40 remembers how communist regimes operate. We are also finding out China's numbers did NOT include asymptomatic people that were testing positive. Plus, it's China, not known for being open and accurate in times of crisis. My guess is take their numbers and add 75%. In the words of a fellow Illinoisian, "Trust, but verify". We live in a free society. Our founding documents have portrayed our rights not as something granted by a government (easily taken away then), but something we ARE entitled to, granted by a creator. I agree we have a responsibility to not infect others, that's about being a moral human. But as I've always said, your rights end where mine begin. It's surely a tricky situation, not easily navigated.

For what it's worth, I have a 15 year old son that lives in a residential facility due to a brain injury 5 years ago. I haven't been able to visit in person for almost a month, and it is not easy. I typically go at least once a week, it's an hour away so not as easy to pop by, but the staff gives us weekly FaceTime calls so there are ways to get through it. Everyone does what they can, and all I can do is hope they stay Covid-19 free as all 21 kids there have respiratory issues as well.
 
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Can we put a higher % of wrong on the parents of these kids? Of course these kids are going to carry out their spring break plans.....they are kids!!
I'll agree that the parents have some blame here, but in reality most of these spring breakers are over 18 and considered "adults". The parents I have the biggest issue with are the ones funding these vacations (as if a college kid needs a "vacation").
 
@biglar155 .....While I don't have quite the tendencies you post about....I am typically VERY outraged when someone reports me for "wrong doing" and I'm not actually doing wrong. I'm not so much upset about the concern, or the lack of understanding. I'm more concerned with the premise that they are either too afraid of me, too ashamed of what they are doing, or otherwise felt they couldn't just come talk it through. If it was a big enough deal to call the cops, why was it not a big enough deal to stop and talk to us. If you're going to be outraged, by dammit, be outraged, don't half-ass that, get out of the car and come say it to my face. We'll talk it through from there. It's not like we were brandishing guns, and they needed backup, we were walking around with tumblers full of bourbon and coke, and Miller Lite.

Right there you have the reason most people would call the authorities rather than have a "face to face" that has unknown results. You started your own statement with "VERY outraged" and even used all caps. This implies you are yelling right? So why in the heck would someone who does not know you risk the chance of your so called "face to face discussion" that could escalate due to differences of opinion. How many news stories started this very same way. And the resultant lesson learned was, I should have just called the authorities.

Dude I'm sure you're a good dude. The problem is, most people don't know that. Add to which they don't want to risk finding out what type of person you are under strained differences of opinion. The term "powder keg" comes to mind when you think of our quarantined situation.

Also, keep in mind the numbers problem. You are over there partying it up with your bros in the backyard. I'm a big dude and maybe I'd be okay approaching you guys, but some one smaller or not as confident might see a large group (who by default are all going to be on the same side of the opinion as you) and say F' that, I'm just gonna call the cops and avoid this shit.

So I would just ask you look at your situation from someone else's perspective and not be so "VERY outraged".
 
Several pages i posted about the law enforcement perspective on the balance of liberty and unprecedented times we are in right now. I just plead for everyone to remember, the law enforcement officers are struggling to do what right as well.
 
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with 15 hours days at work I have not been able to keep up with the discussion here, but I wanted to share a chart with y’all so you can decide for yourself. It is nothing fancy just adjusted time zero so China, Italy, South Korea and U.S. has the same starting point.

for whatever is worth our family stoped all recreational activities at the end of January, moved to essential( and school) only outing since mid February and we have been on completed lock down since first week of March. ( being out maybe 3 times for pharmacy and things of that nature). Having a peace of mind and making life easier for those on the frontline , we thought, was/is the right think to do.

22703810-AB4A-46CA-B9AF-F9F63C91A64A.jpeg
 
Many of these charts dont mean what they appear to. We have done soooooo much testing in the past week. It will move the data points significantly. China is not even worth looking at for data.

One of the most Interesting things I have heard was a speculation that the virus has been here much much longer than we thought. That would suggest china was hiding it from the world for months.
 
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Many of these charts dont mean what they appear to. We have done soooooo much testing in the past week. It will move the data points significantly. China is not even worth looking at for data.

One of the most I teresting things I have heard was a speculation that the virus has been here much much longer than we thought. That would suggest china was hiding it from the world for months.
I agree. I had a horrible respiratory issue May-November of 2019. The Doctors that I saw couldn't pinpoint what I had but made it clear that it was viral and usually only seen in someone who has been traveling internationally.
 
I agree. I had a horrible respiratory issue May-November of 2019. The Doctors that I saw couldn't pinpoint what I had but made it clear that it was viral and usually only seen in someone who has been traveling internationally.
It is extremely unlikely you have had COVID last year, unless it was in December and you lived in Wuhan China.

EDIT: Okay @Murf'n'surf, better confess here first - are you the patient zero?!

 
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