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Tow Vehicle Front Brakes

HangOutdoors

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Getting ready to replace the front Brake Pads and Rotors on my 2017 Ford Expedition Limited 4x4. I was going to have the dealer do it, but they want close to $600 it appears. Figured I could do it myself. I have seen different types of rotors from Advanced, Murrays, etc. etc. as well as different types of brake pads. I am hoping that I should be able to do it myself. Haven't done a brake job in 20 years.

Anyhow, I see some are higher performance, etc. Does it behoove me to get a higher grade rotor and pads since I am towing? Will I benefit in the long run? I am sure if I took it somewhere they would be the base rotors and pads on.

Any advice would be appreciated?? Doing this myself to save some money.
 

Sbrown

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Get decent rotors, forget all the "high performance" marketing hype of the various drilled/slotted/combination combination slotted and drilled, you don't drive a racecar and you actually want more surface area for the pads to contact, not less. Spend the money on great pads from a top name. Quality pads most always come with new slide inserts and backing shims.
 

fatboyroy

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Getting ready to replace the front Brake Pads and Rotors on my 2017 Ford Expedition Limited 4x4. I was going to have the dealer do it, but they want close to $600 it appears. Figured I could do it myself. I have seen different types of rotors from Advanced, Murrays, etc. etc. as well as different types of brake pads. I am hoping that I should be able to do it myself. Haven't done a brake job in 20 years.

Anyhow, I see some are higher performance, etc. Does it behoove me to get a higher grade rotor and pads since I am towing? Will I benefit in the long run? I am sure if I took it somewhere they would be the base rotors and pads on.

Any advice would be appreciated?? Doing this myself to save some money.
I always use OEM parts and install myself, the reason I stick with oem is brake pads/rotor hardness have to match or it wear one Or the other quicker. Should really an easy job with your skill set. Only special tool I have is something like tF6B7E2AD-EAC5-4215-BE68-8AB33B2457A1.jpeg
his.
 

Sbrown

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I always use OEM parts and install myself, the reason I stick with oem is brake pads/rotor hardness have to match or it wear one Or the other quicker. Should really an easy job with your skill set. Only special tool I have is something like tView attachment 157450
his.
Both excellent points.

The tool, though, is only needed for rear calipers with integral parking brake where the piston needs to be twisted to retract it.
 

Speedling

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$600 is just over the cost of parts for all 4 corners. If you are in the rust belt like me, get in the habbit of replacing pads and turning rotors ever year or so depending On mileage. Taking stuff apart and going through it keeps rust away
 

HangOutdoors

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2kwik4u

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Those are fine parts. I've used Duralast in the past with good results @HangOutdoors

I usually go with Adams Rotors on rebuilds for tow vehicles. He's a member here ( @adamsrotors ). Don't get drilled for a daily driver. They crack under daily driving use. Good for racecars, not for the heat cycling counts daily driving sees. Slotted and/or dimpled are best for daily driving.

I also typically use EBC GreenStuff pads. Forget the compound, but they were recommended years ago and I've had great success with them.
 
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HangOutdoors

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Well.... I am done! Found a video where a guy did one side in under 7 minutes. I followed his video to the "T" and it went swimmingly. Although it took me just under 3 hours including a quick Sausage Dinner Break the Admiral brought out. Drove it and everything felt so much better on stopping and no slight vibration. Once I got back after test ride, I rechecked the lug nuts with a torque wrench again to 150 ft. lbs.

Also, I didn't have a Torque wrench and figured I should do everything by the book. So I bought a couple of decent ones, Craftsman Click type. A 1/2" one and 3/8" one. Even with those and the cost of the parts I am still under what I would have paid. Next time it will be a walk in the park to do them.

The ones I bought you can see below and this black finish on them to help with corrosion. I have never seen that before.


20210719_192433.jpg
 

Seadeals

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You made quick work of it, nice job. For future interest, I researched cryogenically treated rotors and went with them and Hawk pads last brake change. They use a liquid nitrogen bath to square up the mollecular structure of the metal providing longer life and greater resistance to warping. Fleets like usps use them. I have been very happy (50k mikes now) given all the heavy towing I do.
 

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good timing, I am also looking at brakes. I was looking at EDC stuff, someone mentioned green stuff here. I could get the yellow kit (pads and rotors, stage 9 or some crap) for ~$900.

I have a 2018 ford f150 so the rotors are probably in decent shape, although yesterday while highway driving I noticed vibration when braking hard at high speeds (70 down to 35). I drove 1000 mile round trip and there was a TON of brake dust on my front wheels, the EDC pads are supposed to cut down on that as well.

I'm going to keep the stock calipers and I don't think there is an improvement from an upgrade there. The EDC rotors sound nice, they are slotted, but the description says the slots are to clean the pad, like if you are in mud. The sales pitch also says 30%-40% better braking power than OEM. I don't know, I might go for the kit, do the work myself and see what happens.

Any experience with these 3rd party brake kits?
 

Acard7

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They look great, you’ll have to let us all know how they hold up. When the time comes for my truck I’ll probably order off Rockauto because I’m a cheap a$$, lol, but you can find better quality on their site that looks comparable. Glad I have a trailblazer (AKA the Dave Ramsey car) so I can use the truck for pulling and occasional trips. The price for all car parts seem to be creeping up every year. Not to get completely off subject, but I had to replace a wiper motor module on the trailblazer, $160 new, for a 16 year old vehicle. Went to a local body shop junk yard and got the whole wiper motor assembly used for 40 bucks.

Seems like a shop working on anything other than a service will cost you a minimum of a couple Benjamins (excluding diesel service). The dealership near us charges people 90 dollars just to “diagnose,” but will cut that price in half if you let them fix it. I do respect that trade though, I don’t have the patience to work on a vehicle other than service, serpentine belt parts, and brake jobs.
 

AZMark

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You made quick work of it, nice job. For future interest, I researched cryogenically treated rotors and went with them and Hawk pads last brake change. They use a liquid nitrogen bath to square up the mollecular structure of the metal providing longer life and greater resistance to warping. Fleets like usps use them. I have been very happy (50k mikes now) given all the heavy towing I do.
I’ve had excellent luck with the Hawk LT pads.

I have always used OEM rotors and I have ALWAYS had vibration until they are turned once. I have a friend that owns a Toyota shop and he has also given up on OEM and uses powerstop or similar. He actually uses the drilled and hasn’t had trouble.

I may have to try the cryo ones, good to hear you’ve had a good experience over a lot of miles.
 

yall_mahaw

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To get the most out of your new brake parts, you should bed them in. This process helps transfer pad material to the rotor which will provide better friction between the rotors and pads during braking. Here is a guide on how to bed them.
 
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FSH 210 Sport

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Well.... I am done! Found a video where a guy did one side in under 7 minutes. I followed his video to the "T" and it went swimmingly. Although it took me just under 3 hours including a quick Sausage Dinner Break the Admiral brought out. Drove it and everything felt so much better on stopping and no slight vibration. Once I got back after test ride, I rechecked the lug nuts with a torque wrench again to 150 ft. lbs.

Also, I didn't have a Torque wrench and figured I should do everything by the book. So I bought a couple of decent ones, Craftsman Click type. A 1/2" one and 3/8" one. Even with those and the cost of the parts I am still under what I would have paid. Next time it will be a walk in the park to do them.

The ones I bought you can see below and this black finish on them to help with corrosion. I have never seen that before.


View attachment 157639
Well done!

A little advice… try not braking too hard for 500 miles or so as the pads seat on the rotors. You will notice braking improve as the pads take a set.
 

Stevepro172

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I have found the power stop pads and rotors last much longer and perform better with not more of an up charge from the autozone stuff.
 

2kwik4u

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You made quick work of it, nice job. For future interest, I researched cryogenically treated rotors and went with them and Hawk pads last brake change. They use a liquid nitrogen bath to square up the mollecular structure of the metal providing longer life and greater resistance to warping. Fleets like usps use them. I have been very happy (50k mikes now) given all the heavy towing I do.
A quick note on this........Cryo treating helps with strength of the material, as well as overall toughness (the amount of energy it can absorb before structural failure), but does nothing to stop "warping".

"warping" of brake rotors is far and away a myth. The rotors don't warp, or change shape. You can take the worst set of "warped" rotors you can find and put them on a lathe with a dial indicator and you'll find less than 0.001" of runnout. Beyond that, if the rotors were to physically change shape, the calipers in all modern vehicles "float" in relation the axis of rotation. That is to say the caliper would simply move in/out along with the movement of the misshapen rotor. There would be no net effect on the pedal feel, or stopping power.

When you "warp" a rotor, what has ACUTALLY happened is that you have heated the brake pads beyond a destabilization point, and some of that brake pad material has been transferred to the rotor surface. This leads the surface to have high and low spots in terms of thickness. This usually happens from repeated heavy stops, and then sitting stationary. Think stop and go traffic with a heavy braking foot, and then sitting still once they're good and hot. There have been studies done where you can "feel" as little as 0.0003" (Three Ten Thousandths) of inch difference in rotor thickness through the brake pedal. This is because the rotor thickness changes lead to a physical movement change in the distance between the pads, and that directly translates to the hydraulic pressure in the system. This is also what leads to the "surging" feeling you get when this has happened.

What's worse, is that in this scenario, it's a positive feedback loop. Once you have embedded some brake material unevenly on the rotor face, every time you stop, a little more will get added. So the problem continues to grow and grow until you either shave that material back off with a rotor resurfacing, or you replace the rotors with new ones. I personally won't resurface rotors. They are too inexpensive, and you run the risk of shaving too much off and getting past the case hardening (which cryo treated rotors don't have) on the surface. Just get some new ones and move along.

You can avoid this "warping" situation two ways. First is to have properly sized brakes and drive with a light braking foot. Plan ahead, read traffic patterns, and avoid aggressive stop/go situations. A little patience in gridlock traffic goes a long way here. Secondarily, you can properly "bed" the brakes. This is where you go out on a long open section of road and do 3-5 HARD stops from 60+. You want a LOT of heat in the brakes to get the pads to destabilize and deposit some pad material on the rotors. The key here is to do this EVENLY. So get them good and hot, then drive for a few miles without stopping to let them cool back to operating temps. This will put a thin layer of brake material on the rotor, and help prevent that destabilization from happening again, and if it does, there is already pad material there, so you wont add as much as you otherwise would have.

I sat through a brake technology seminar at SEMA awhile back, and this has really stuck with me. Ever since then I've not had a single brake rotor "warp" on me. Proper bedding technique, and properly sized brakes are best, with driving technique being a STRONG player in the problem.
 

anmut

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As someone who drives a white truck, any suggestions on who makes a low dust brake/rotor combo?!
 

2kwik4u

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As someone who drives a white truck, any suggestions on who makes a low dust brake/rotor combo?!
Get a ceramic based pad. Semi-Metallic (or even full metallic) will dust heavily. Ceramics will dust less. Ceramics also take longer to get to operating temps, so you might get some light squeeling, or screeching in cold months on teh first few stops.
 

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A lot of interesting information in this thread. Most of it very solid, some less so.

Regarding “best pads” that depends on what you value the most. Primary trade offs in different lining (pad) materials is between life, braking output, and noise. Truism in the industry is you can be strong in two of the three, but the third will suffer. Other considerations include price, dust, weight, general design (chamfered lead or square, etc), etc.

Comment above to go with a set designed together from reputable brand is good advice. Every design is a chosen set of compromises, so a system from a good manufacturer that was designed to work together will have a harmonized set of trade offs across the components to optimize the system.

If anyone wants further insight, DM me. I was a brake manufacturing engineer that worked on all aspects of brake corner modules, having worked in rotor & knuckle machining, brake corner assembly, caliper body & bracket machining, caliper assembly, drum assembly, pad and drum liner forming, and wheel spindle bearing hub and spindle machining, heat treatment, assembly, etc. I worked in 3 plants in the US Midwest over about a 10 year span that made a combined total of over 500,000,000 brake assemblies, calipers, and wheel spindle bearings.
 

Seadeals

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Great info and I love the elaboration from @2kwik4u. Racecar brake rotors actually get thicker. I learned to shift into neutral/park after stopping hard when towing so I can let off the brakes and get the pads off the rotors. If the slope requires, I’ll hold with trailer brakes (travel trailer) before the vehicle brakes. Had some fade and (apparently lots of pad transfer) after towing to a mountain campground with the stock F-150 brakes. The front left runout was .005 and thumped like a Chinook helicopter after a long downhill stop. Drilled and slotted seem to have little purpose off a track; but I agree there are better options than stock for those who need performance.
 
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