Towing with Tesla Model X

[Tyguy]

Have you guys seen some of the production timeline estimates lately? Best to get in line for an EV now if you haven't and are thinking about it. Looks like a Rivian ordered now would be delivered in 2024. Similar for the Lightning. Who knows about the Cybertruck with a million+ reservations and unknown capacity and start time. With the big fed incentives possibly coming into play I also checked out the MACH E and the Model Y...wow, those are mid to late next year if you reserve now. I'm about 200,000th in line for the Cybertruck and 80,000th in line for the tri-motor, so even if production starts next year I think it'll be late 2023 or early 2024 before I see mine.

 

[adrianp89]

Are you thinking of the one that's displayed near the speedometer, or the Energy graph where the map is usually displayed? I've found both to be pretty accurate unless something unexpected happens...like that 60-mph headwind and torrential downpour I hit in the middle of Kansas that doubled my energy output...but the Energy graph in particular has been fantastic. I love that it allows me to change how many miles in history it's using to predict consumption. Typically the maps-based estimates have been within a few % of actual and it seems to adapt quickly to changing conditions like temperature drops. I think the little meter near the speedo is the least accurate of the three options if conditions are averse, and I just keep mine set to battery % readout instead of miles/km.

Just in the corner. It will show like 290 no matter what even though we average like 325kh

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

Now the big question is how the feds will handle EV incentives, which could be significant based on the most recent discussions. Ford could be given an ability to pad their pricing if the feds stick with a union-only incentive.

I think EV incentives could be a game changer for electric vehicles. With the plethora of new electric vehicles coming to the marketplace in the next couple of years, incentives could certainly make EV purchases more mainstream and maybe lead to revolutionary changes in the build out of EV charge stations.

Jim

 

[Peelz]

I got rid of miles because it was useless, just see % now.

I tell people its like driving a phone lol but similarly, I mention it to people who use the mileage thing as one of their EV-skeptic talking points...I get the question "what do you do when you run out and there's no chargers?" question alot.

I respond with "do you know how many miles it is on your fuel tank, or do you just look at the tank level and plan a stop accordingly?"

same exact thing IMO. Your Brain is trained to know how much percentage can get you how far.

Are you thinking of the one that's displayed near the speedometer, or the Energy graph where the map is usually displayed? I've found both to be pretty accurate unless something unexpected happens...like that 60-mph headwind and torrential downpour I hit in the middle of Kansas that doubled my energy output...but the Energy graph in particular has been fantastic. I love that it allows me to change how many miles in history it's using to predict consumption. Typically the maps-based estimates have been within a few % of actual and it seems to adapt quickly to changing conditions like temperature drops. I think the little meter near the speedo is the least accurate of the three options if conditions are averse, and I just keep mine set to battery % readout instead of miles/km.

that's my experience too.

I enjoy playing with the energy and trip screen. Looking at the graph on our trip to the mountains was fun.

 

[2kwik4u]

I think EV incentives could be a game changer for electric vehicles. With the plethora of new electric vehicles coming to the marketplace in the next couple of years, incentives could certainly make EV purchases more mainstream and maybe lead to revolutionary changes in the build out of EV charge stations.

Jim

I was having this conversation with a coworker yesterday. He started with "Rivians are so much more expensive than a regular pickup though, you'll never make back the extra cash". And he's right, on the surface the $90k sticker is a good bit more than a comparable Denali/Platinum/LongHorn fullsize pickup. Until you shave another $10k off the price in tax credits. Then it's an $80k truck, and only a few grand more than other top tier fullsize pickups.

Just priced a top trim Denali pickup at $73,630.

Just configured a top of the line Rivian at $89,750.

$16,120 more for the EV, $6,120 more after tax credits (Assuming $7,500 for EV, and $2,500 for US manufactured......these are currently in limbo as I understand it though.

Making a few assumptions around fuel price and energy usage about both of them and I come out around 30k miles to break even on fuel costs alone after $10k tax credits. Of course you can get a lower optioned version of both, but honestly. Even without the tax credits I think Rivian is in the ballpark here. They're a little high, but so is an Audi compared to GM. If they can (and I think they're off to an amazing start) prove durability over real world use cases, then they're definitely in the running. Only takes (1) GM transmission failure to start sneaking up the total cost of ownership of the Denali to match the Rivian.

 

[adrianp89]

Don’t forget performance. Rivian comes out cheaper than most Raptors/TRX

 

[2kwik4u]

Don’t forget performance. Rivian comes out cheaper than most Raptors/TRX

No arguments there. I'm a GM guy so those don't usually hit my radar. I would wager the Rivian to be every bit as capable as a Raptor.

 

[Peelz]

Don’t forget performance. Rivian comes out cheaper than most Raptors/TRX

No arguments there. I'm a GM guy so those don't usually hit my radar. I would wager the Rivian to be every bit as capable as a Raptor.

Yep and yep.

FInd me a truck being currently built that can do this:

If I end up with a RIvian, theres a 100% chance i'm doing this in every parking lot whenever it snows.

 

[haknslash]

Anyone else see this new cable Ford and Purdue University are developing?

Electric vehicles could fully recharge in under 5 minutes with new charging station cable design

Purdue University engineers have invented a new, patent-pending charging station cable that would fully recharge certain electric vehicles in under five minutes – about the same amount of time it takes to fill up a gas tank.

www.purdue.edu

 

[2kwik4u]

Anyone else see this new cable Ford and Purdue University are developing?

Electric vehicles could fully recharge in under 5 minutes with new charging station cable design

Purdue University engineers have invented a new, patent-pending charging station cable that would fully recharge certain electric vehicles in under five minutes – about the same amount of time it takes to fill up a gas tank.

www.purdue.edu

I saw that. Wonder if the cable is the current weak link in the charging chain. Can the batteries handle the new current? Can the power supply? So many questions.

Glad to see Purdue in the news though. BoilerUp!

 

[haknslash]

I saw that. Wonder if the cable is the current weak link in the charging chain. Can the batteries handle the new current? Can the power supply? So many questions.

Glad to see Purdue in the news though. BoilerUp!

I’m not super EV savvy or anything but from what little I’ve read it seems the cables capacity to deal with heat dissipation is the weak link in charging EV’s.

From another source:

“The cable features a unique liquid cooling system that can phase the liquid into vapor, which improves its ability to dissipate heat.

Today, chargers are limited in how quickly they can charge an EV’s battery due to the danger of overheating. Charging faster requires more current to travel through the charging cable," Michael Degner, senior technical leader, Ford Research and Advanced Engineering, said.

The higher the current, the greater the amount of heat that has to be removed to keep the cable operational.

The most powerful stations currently in use can charge an electric car to 80% in 20 to 40 minutes and new cable designs will be required to increase the speed as battery and charging network technology improves.”

 

[Tyguy]

There are generally 3 sources of the charging speed limitations:

1. How much the "charger" or supply can provide.
2. How much the cable can safely handle.
3. How much the battery and onboard charging system can handle.

Number 3 is the big deal. It's not just 1 and 2 that have to remain cool. When the Model 3 was released, it charged significantly faster than the X or S at the time because Tesla upgraded the onboard cooling systems, which also allowed for repeated hard pulls without degrading performance (looking at you Ford MACH-E GT). When I rapid charge (or deplete) the 3 battery, you'll hear onboard fans and pumps turn on, and coolant valves open and close. It's a sophisticated system designed to protect the battery from excess heat. My understanding is that Model S/3/X/Y are currently limited to about 1,000 miles per hour of charging at best, which slows down as the charge state rises. The higher the charge state the slower the charge rate.

Seriously, though, the only time I care about charge rate is when I'm on a road trip. I do almost all my charging while at home, and my 220V 40-amp system has never been an issue.

 

[thefortunes]

Anyone else see this new cable Ford and Purdue University are developing?

Electric vehicles could fully recharge in under 5 minutes with new charging station cable design

Purdue University engineers have invented a new, patent-pending charging station cable that would fully recharge certain electric vehicles in under five minutes – about the same amount of time it takes to fill up a gas tank.

www.purdue.edu

Somewhat irrelevant if the batteries are the limiting factor.

I’m not super EV savvy or anything but from what little I’ve read it seems the cables capacity to deal with heat dissipation is the weak link in charging EV’s.

From another source:

Tesla v3 supercharging cables are already liquid cooled.

At least in Tesla's case the limitation (at this time) is related to the amount of current a battery can take without causing damage.

 

[haknslash]

Somewhat irrelevant if the batteries are the limiting factor.

Tesla v3 supercharging cables are already liquid cooled.

At least in Tesla's case the limitation (at this time) is related to the amount of current a battery can take without causing damage.

Well I’m certainly no EV aficionado so just spreading some info I was reading today that I thought was interesting and cool. I’ll go back to my ICE corner now lol.

No but seriously I’m glad other MFG’s are coming up with tech. The more the better. Perhaps Ford’s batteries are not on the same level as Tesla (or others), no idea really. Just sharing is all.

@Tyguy The downtime for charging is a big drawback to me or at least my perceived battery range phobia or whatever they’re calling it. I don’t care nor want to sit at a charging station any longer than I have to when pumping 25 gallons of fuel. Nothing convenient about that nor safe in todays Crazy world. So the shorter the downtime the better for me if I wanted a full charge. Just my .02 for folks like me to eventually get onboard with EV’s. They are slowly getting better but still have a ways to go and of course zero to minimal infrastructure for them here. I have quite a few reservations about them and don’t see them as a long term practical investment for me until battery tech is better.

 

[buckbuck]

Hmmm...household currents of 100 milliamps delivered by your house will kill you.
I wonder what 2500 amps (2,500,000 milliamps) will do?

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

@Tyguy The downtime for charging is a big drawback to me or at least my perceived battery range phobia or whatever they’re calling it. I don’t care nor want to sit at a charging station any longer than I have to when pumping 25 gallons of fuel. Nothing convenient about that nor safe in todays Crazy world. So the shorter the downtime the better for me if I wanted a full charge. Just my .02 for folks like me to eventually get onboard with EV’s. They are slowly getting better but still have a ways to go and of course zero to minimal infrastructure for them here. I have quite a few reservations about them and don’t see them as a long term practical investment for me until battery tech is better.

I wholeheartedly agree!

Mainstream use for me would be plugging in, running inside the store to pee and get a snack, running back outside, unplugging and driving off.

Jim

 

[thefortunes]

I wholeheartedly agree!

Mainstream use for me would be plugging in, running inside the store to pee and get a snack, running back outside, unplugging and driving off.

Jim

Typical supercharge is 10-15 minutes, with longer ones taking 20. I've driven Wisconsin-Florida (about 1000 miles) and back around a half dozen times in the last couple years and our total supercharging time is about 2 hours.

Not as quickly as I could do it in a gas car, but (as I've said a dozen times in this thread) easier since you are stopping every 2-3 hours and have autopilot to do the driving.

Edited to add: and you ONLY are charging in public (wasting time and being at risk) when you travel more than 300 miles. Otherwise you are just charging at home, same as your phone.

 

[thefortunes]

Well I’m certainly no EV aficionado so just spreading some info I was reading today that I thought was interesting and cool. I’ll go back to my ICE corner now lol.

Sorry if it came across poorly, just sharing info too.

 

[Tyguy]

Even with today's charge rate, I spend about 1/3 less time "refueling" my EV vs my ICE, and that's being conservative with giving ICE every advantage I could. I've done the math. I save time with an EV. The only time it costs me more time is on a road trip requiring a recharge, but that's less than 10% of my miles. The other 90% I save time not stopping at gas stations.

For those worried about range and charge time, how often do you travel more than 300 miles in spring/summer/fall, or 200 in winter?

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

Even with today's charge rate, I spend about 1/3 less time "refueling" my EV vs my ICE, and that's being conservative with giving ICE every advantage I could. I've done the math. I save time with an EV. The only time it costs me more time is on a road trip requiring a recharge, but that's less than 10% of my miles. The other 90% I save time not stopping at gas stations.

For those worried about range and charge time, how often do you travel more than 300 miles in spring/summer/fall, or 200 in winter?

Actually quite a few, and that number will only increase when I retire. I'm not anti-EV, we would love to buy one as the wife's new car. This becomes an easier proposition when we move into our new home and can charge in the garage.

Long distance driving on the highway, however, I love my truck. May not have auto-pilot, but it is big, comfortable, we can take whatever we want, and I have a 33-gallon gas tank. If I'm not towing, and its open road, I have a 500 mile range.

Jim