Towing with Tesla Model X

[thefortunes]

Actually quite a few, and that number will only increase when I retire. I'm not anti-EV, we would love to buy one as the wife's new car. This becomes an easier proposition when we move into our new home and can charge in the garage.

Long distance driving on the highway, however, I love my truck. May not have auto-pilot, but it is big, comfortable, we can take whatever we want, and I have a 33-gallon gas tank. If I'm not towing, and its open road, I have a 500 mile range.

Jim

Do yourself a favor, go test drive a Model S.

400 miles of range and a TON of storage space. Perfect highway cruiser.

 

[2kwik4u]

Even with today's charge rate, I spend about 1/3 less time "refueling" my EV vs my ICE, and that's being conservative with giving ICE every advantage I could. I've done the math. I save time with an EV. The only time it costs me more time is on a road trip requiring a recharge, but that's less than 10% of my miles. The other 90% I save time not stopping at gas stations.

For those worried about range and charge time, how often do you travel more than 300 miles in spring/summer/fall, or 200 in winter?

We do several trips a year in the 250+mi one way range, overnight 2 nights and drive 250+mi home. Charging at those locations are extremely rural and limited to 110V access. Would require a stop mid-way to make it in the winter (assuming I had to drive to the office in the morning on the outbound leg). Those trips happen 6-8 times a year.

With that said, wife's Rogue BARELY makes the trip on a full tank as it is. We usually stop mid way, refuel and make rest stop to use the restroom and stock up on snacks. Just did the drive home yesterday. 281mi from Benton,MO to Georgetown, IN. I think there are some chargers in Marion, IL, but otherwise it's an EV desert up 57 and across 64. Took us just over 4hrs with a drive thru at Burger King in Jonesboro, IL and a fuel/snack stop in Carmi, IL.

Our other trip is from Georgetown, IN to Charleston, IL. 255mi I think, with no chargers along the way. Most EVs would make it easy in the summer and be snug in the winter.

Moral of the story here is I think we could make it, but it would be close/tight.

I have some concerns on charge time of a Rivian on a long road trip. While the range is good, the total energy usage is high as compared to current charge rates, and I think something like a 600+mi trip to FL, or a long lake trip would require a charge enroute, and add significant time due to the amount of energy to be transferred.

I'm getting closer, but I'm not quite convinced enough to plunk down a deposit just yet.

 

[Bruce]

I saw that. Wonder if the cable is the current weak link in the charging chain. Can the batteries handle the new current? Can the power supply? So many questions.

Glad to see Purdue in the news though. BoilerUp!

Charge rate is a big factor. I understand that Panasonic's new 4680 batteries that are going into Teslas can be charged to 100% in around 15 minutes. Most lithium batteries will charge to 80% in half or less the time it takes to get to 100%.

As for the cable lets consider the physics of transferring 100 KWH in 5 minutes. I understand that the Tesla chargers operate at as much as 480 volts. At 480 volts that 100 KWH is 208 AMPs for an hour. So we need to transfer 480V at a rate of 2,500 amps to charge that 100KWH battery in 5 minutes.

With a 10' length a 4/0 copper cable would have a 2.5% drop in voltage at 2,500 amps. However the rest of the charging station and power supply would be quite complex to deliver power at such a high rate. 110,000 volt transmission lines certainly can carry the load which is only 12 amps at that voltage but converting to the power needed by the battery packs will require significant hardware and cooling.

 

[Bruce]

@2kwik4u, I think that rental batteries make a lot of sense in situations. A battery that will give you a few hundred extra miles either integrating into the vehicle or charging overnight.

 

[thefortunes]

FYI here's a peak supercharge rate from our last run to Florida (243kW or over 1000mi/hr).

 

[2kwik4u]

@2kwik4u, I think that rental batteries make a lot of sense in situations. A battery that will give you a few hundred extra miles either integrating into the vehicle or charging overnight.

I agree.

I saw a concept awhile ago about a "hot swap" type setup. Pull in and swap batteries and be on your way in short order. Lots more infrastructure for that to work.

I really liked the Chevy volt for these use cases as well. Give me EV capability for my commute, then a range extender for my longer trips. I think the PHEV concept would work great as a fullsize pickup as well for this reason. Let me commute as a full EV, maybe 75mi range or so. Then let me have an onboard diesel Genset or similar to cover heavy loads and long hauls. That would cover ALL of my use cases, and get the best of both worlds.

Edmunds has a 250V charger and it took almost 24hrs to replenish the Rivian. That means if I go visit my parents and need to make the 550mi round trip, I'll need to drag a cord into the garage for their 110V outlet and let the truck sit all weekend to recharge to make it home. OR, install a charger for me at their home. OR find a higher level charge between here and there, which currently there aren't any on our normal route.

Like I said, it's close.

 

[thefortunes]

I agree.

I saw a concept awhile ago about a "hot swap" type setup. Pull in and swap batteries and be on your way in short order. Lots more infrastructure for that to work.

I really liked the Chevy volt for these use cases as well. Give me EV capability for my commute, then a range extender for my longer trips. I think the PHEV concept would work great as a fullsize pickup as well for this reason. Let me commute as a full EV, maybe 75mi range or so. Then let me have an onboard diesel Genset or similar to cover heavy loads and long hauls. That would cover ALL of my use cases, and get the best of both worlds.

Edmunds has a 250V charger and it took almost 24hrs to replenish the Rivian. That means if I go visit my parents and need to make the 550mi round trip, I'll need to drag a cord into the garage for their 110V outlet and let the truck sit all weekend to recharge to make it home. OR, install a charger for me at their home. OR find a higher level charge between here and there, which currently there aren't any on our normal route.

Like I said, it's close.

We've been thru this discussion ??

Just install a 240v outlet (like a dryer outlet) and you're good.

 

[Bruce]

We've been thru this discussion ??

Just install a 240v outlet (like a dryer outlet) and you're good.

While that would be easy at my home how many existing homes have an extra 40 or 50 amps available.

I have a residential 400 amp service that I had planned to make use of for tankless water heaters before I decided to install a geothermal unit that provides hot water.

Typically homes are built with 200 amp service now but there are plenty of homes with 80 or 120 amp service.

 

[thefortunes]

While that would be easy at my home how many existing homes have an extra 40 or 50 amps available.

I have a residential 400 amp service that I had planned to make use of for tankless water heaters before I decided to install a geothermal unit that provides hot water.

Typically homes are built with 200 amp service now but there are plenty of homes with 80 or 120 amp service.

I just put a NEMA 14-50 in at our condo in Florida ON 100AMP SERVICE.

200A is plenty for 99% of situations per calcs.

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

Do yourself a favor, go test drive a Model S.

400 miles of range and a TON of storage space. Perfect highway cruiser.

Not gonna happen on our budget, as we are little fishes in the sea. We are wanting an EV in the $45-50K range.

$100K would pay off my one year old truck, my wife's next car, and still give us a nice trip to Hawaii. No way I getting rid of my truck, as I can pretty much tow/haul whatever I want, wherever I want.

Jim

 

[thefortunes]

Not gonna happen on our budget, as we are little fishes in the sea. We are wanting an EV in the $45-50K range.

$100K would pay off my one year old truck, my wife's next car, and still give us a nice trip to Hawaii. No way I getting rid of my truck, as I can pretty much tow/haul whatever I want, wherever I want.

Jim

Yeah, guess I haven't paid attention to the S pricing in the last couple years. I thought you could still get the base in the $80s.

The long range 3 (358 mile range) starts at $50k.

 

[BlkGS]

I agree.

I saw a concept awhile ago about a "hot swap" type setup. Pull in and swap batteries and be on your way in short order. Lots more infrastructure for that to work.

I really liked the Chevy volt for these use cases as well. Give me EV capability for my commute, then a range extender for my longer trips. I think the PHEV concept would work great as a fullsize pickup as well for this reason. Let me commute as a full EV, maybe 75mi range or so. Then let me have an onboard diesel Genset or similar to cover heavy loads and long hauls. That would cover ALL of my use cases, and get the best of both worlds.

Edmunds has a 250V charger and it took almost 24hrs to replenish the Rivian. That means if I go visit my parents and need to make the 550mi round trip, I'll need to drag a cord into the garage for their 110V outlet and let the truck sit all weekend to recharge to make it home. OR, install a charger for me at their home. OR find a higher level charge between here and there, which currently there aren't any on our normal route.

Like I said, it's close.

Doesn't sound that close, lol.

I agree about the volt. That's the way to do an EV. Electric motors, a battery that gets you 50ish miles of charge, and a small generator that gets you 500 miles of real range. But theres no stock market gains in products that work and make sense, how is congress supposed to get more rich without making rules to help them insider trade?

 

[2kwik4u]

We've been thru this discussion ??

Just install a 240v outlet (like a dryer outlet) and you're good.

Yea I know. Probably worth it considering my parents own their home. Father in law though. He might let us have access to the 110V, but doubt he's going to let us put a 240V anywhere on his house. I won't go into the extreme detail, but his political views and conspiracy theory levels are, well, off the charts in a myriad of directions. I mentioned an EV truck to him this weekend, and was greeted with an immediate and strong set of opinions on how EV's are terrible for the environment, they're a waste of time, they'll never work, and a whole slew of other things.......Needless to say, he might do it for his daughter, but no way can I make that request . My parents would give zero craps so long as I covered the cost.

Just checked a better route planner. In a Rivian from Mo to IN, it has me stopping at a Wal-Mart in Mt Vernon for a boost from 39%-47% SoC (est 8min stop). Then arriving around 10% SoC in Benton, MO. I would most likely let the thing charge longer than 8min, and walk into the WalMart take a restroom break, get some snacks, and head back out. Google Maps shows there are lots of chain restaurants there as well. Might be a good place to grab lunch on the way home. I can also see there are two Electrify America chargers near Benton. One in Sikeston, MO, and one in Cape Girardeau, MO. I could probably sneak out on a Saturday/Sunday morning to go "fill the car" before our trip home.

Now the Friday night trip out is a little different. Assuming I left the house in the morning at 100%, then drove to work and back, THEN headed out to MO. I'm still stopping at that same Wal-Mart in Mt Vernon, however I need a minimum 21min of charging there. At this point everyone in the truck will be asleep, so it might or might not be a good stop for them. They'll either sleep through it or wake up cranky. Hard to say. This trip 4 days ago, we stopped for food in St. Claus, IN, then stopped for restroom and fuel in Burnt Prairie, IN. Wife took over driving and the 2 boys and I slept the remainder of the way in to MO. Not a completely different trip really, just stops in different places.

I checked the ABRP for the trip to IL from home. There are no chargers along the route. There is a detour available through Effingham, IL that adds 16min to the trip to get there, but it doesn't look like it's needed. ABRP is predicting I can arrive with about 19% SoC in Charleston, IL assuming I leave at 100% and go to work and home, THEN make the trip. Our usual stop is in Carmi/Grayville right on the Il/IN state line, but no charger there (yet). Either way, it looks like a Rivian will make that trip just fine.

ABRP is using 516Whr/mi as energy usage as well, which I think might be a shade high, but conservative.

Moral of the story here is that the Rivian will get us everywhere we need to go, without major disruption to plans overall, and only a small change to current workflows. Getting a full charge to get home will require some "messing about" in MO, and I'll have to put a plug in at my parents house in IL. I'm going to have to do the same kind of route planning with revised power consumption numbers for boat trips. I suspect we'll require overnights to make a few of the "local" lakes work for us, which honestly isn't a deal breaker, just another small change in planning ahead.

I want to run these simulations again with an eTron as well. It's the only other EV I would consider that will tow our 190 around at the current moment. Lightning, Hummer, Etc are still "not released", and not on my "buy" list either. I'll rent a suburban if we take the boat on vacation again...Maybe....Might just plan the snot out of the trip. Hard to say.

@BlkGS I really do think I'm pretty close to making it work. Overall, I'm really not seeing a big road block here to making an EV work in our regular use cases. It's different than what we do now, but it's not so absurdly different as to be considered impossible, or overtly impractical.

 

[2kwik4u]

I just put a NEMA 14-50 in at our condo in Florida ON 100AMP SERVICE.

200A is plenty for 99% of situations per calcs.

I'll have to ask my Dad to verify, but I'm pretty certain he's only got a 120A service into the house.

How does that work if I wanted to put an EV charger on the wall in his garage? Just don't charge the truck and run the dryer and run the stove at the same time? I'm by no means an electrician, so I'm gonna have to research that as well it appears

 

[BlkGS]

I think regular use an EV works out fine. It's that out of the norm stuff where they fall flat. Towing a boat for a trip for instance.

That said, we are on a trip to NC with our 3 month old and I did say to my wife we could have made an EV work this time. With the little man's feeding schedule, we were stopping every 3 hours for him to eat, burp, and change. We didn't even get gas at a couple of those stops. We could have easily done them at a gas station charger and charged for a while. I'm no baby expert, but I think this phase only lasts a few months though, so we probably won't be saying this when he's 9 months old, but for this trip it could have worked. That said, the only one that would have worked is that hummer SUV (assuming it's sized like an H2 was) because we had us, the baby, 2 dogs, luggage for everyone, and ended up not bringing a decent bit of stuff because we didn't have room in our rogue. When we have number 2, I don't see anything smaller than a Durango being feasible for us.

 

[2kwik4u]

I think regular use an EV works out fine. It's that out of the norm stuff where they fall flat. Towing a boat for a trip for instance.

That said, we are on a trip to NC with our 3 month old and I did say to my wife we could have made an EV work this time. With the little man's feeding schedule, we were stopping every 3 hours for him to eat, burp, and change. We didn't even get gas at a couple of those stops. We could have easily done them at a gas station charger and charged for a while. I'm no baby expert, but I think this phase only lasts a few months though, so we probably won't be saying this when he's 9 months old, but for this trip it could have worked. That said, the only one that would have worked is that hummer SUV (assuming it's sized like an H2 was) because we had us, the baby, 2 dogs, luggage for everyone, and ended up not bringing a decent bit of stuff because we didn't have room in our rogue. When we have number 2, I don't see anything smaller than a Durango being feasible for us.

We made a road trip in the Q7 with the boat this past June. It was snug for a week long adventure at the beach. We took this weekend trip in her Rogue, and it was fine with the 4 of us. Dog could have come to and not been too bad. The Q7 would've been better (more space behind row 2), but it's getting close to needing a water pump and wheel bearings and I didn't want to risk it for 500mi trip. We did several weekend trips in our TBSS with both boys, the dog, and all our "stuff". The SS is about the "right" size SUV IMO. Not too big like a Yukon/Suburban, but not as small as the Rogue. We've had a Yukon, Trailblazer, Rogue, Traverse, and Q7 SUV's. The Trailblazer and Q7 are "right sized". The Rogue is a shade small for me.

The good news about the kids is that they require less "stuff" as you go along. The pack and play stopped making the trip around 2yrs old. That was a GIANT space hog in the car. Likewise, we don't bring a "diaper bag" with us anymore once they are potty trained. Also, the second kid requires SOOO MUCH less crap than the first. You learn really quickly what you must have, and what was "I'm not sure, we might need it" stuff.

Here's our Yukon on the first trip to Grandma's when our oldest (now 10) was only a few months old. Had spare milk in the cooler, clearly there's a jump pack in there for the truck I didn't need. Some camp chairs in there as well. But this was just the wife, the boy, and I. No dog or second child. Filled a Yukon to the windows.
<--Click to make bigger

Here's the back of my pickup from vacation in '19. Oldest was 8, youngest was 9mo. We took ALL THE THINGS with us on this trip. There are cornhole boards in there, the packnplay, coolers, drinks, toys, video game systems, all kinds of crap. It was insane the amount of stuff we took. I think I even see a stroller in there. Good grief it was too much.


This weekend we had 3 suitcases, and my backpack. All 4 of us. The Rogue wasn't even full to the windows in the back. Oldest is 10, youngest is 3-1/2. They each had a small backpack of toys/electronics in the second row with them. Otherwise, no big deal.

 

[Peelz]

Somewhat irrelevant if the batteries are the limiting factor.

Tesla v3 supercharging cables are already liquid cooled.

At least in Tesla's case the limitation (at this time) is related to the amount of current a battery can take without causing damage.

yes not a problem with wiring or anything.... IF there is any issue, the supercharger or mobile/home charger instantly notices and cuts power. The weak link the cells and the electrical system in the car can only take HIGH amps for a very short period before heat becomes an issue. Supercharger ramps up to 150kw, then tails off. Kinda cool to watch when charging, for real. I think the forthcoming 4680 cells are part of this calculation, and they'll be able to take more in short order.

I know the Chevy Bolts are having trouble with connectors.

Actually quite a few, and that number will only increase when I retire. I'm not anti-EV, we would love to buy one as the wife's new car. This becomes an easier proposition when we move into our new home and can charge in the garage.

Long distance driving on the highway, however, I love my truck. May not have auto-pilot, but it is big, comfortable, we can take whatever we want, and I have a 33-gallon gas tank. If I'm not towing, and its open road, I have a 500 mile range.

Jim

yep not quite for everyone/everywhere yet! You'll have to pry me off my ICE motorcycles LOL at least until good ones come, that make me rethink this.

But range/charge isn't an issue for Tesla unless time is a hard constraint and you will be towing or hauling great distance.

 

[Tyguy]

I'll have to ask my Dad to verify, but I'm pretty certain he's only got a 120A service into the house.

How does that work if I wanted to put an EV charger on the wall in his garage? Just don't charge the truck and run the dryer and run the stove at the same time? I'm by no means an electrician, so I'm gonna have to research that as well it appears

Hmmm...it may be possible to add an additional panel or upsize the current one. Definitely something for an electrician to look into. If that’s not possible or practical, I wonder if you could use a switch to divert power to the charger when needed, simultaneously cutting power to the dryer?

Roadside chargers are rapidly expanding, so this is a temporary challenge to get past.

 

[BlkGS]

We made a road trip in the Q7 with the boat this past June. It was snug for a week long adventure at the beach. We took this weekend trip in her Rogue, and it was fine with the 4 of us. Dog could have come to and not been too bad. The Q7 would've been better (more space behind row 2), but it's getting close to needing a water pump and wheel bearings and I didn't want to risk it for 500mi trip. We did several weekend trips in our TBSS with both boys, the dog, and all our "stuff". The SS is about the "right" size SUV IMO. Not too big like a Yukon/Suburban, but not as small as the Rogue. We've had a Yukon, Trailblazer, Rogue, Traverse, and Q7 SUV's. The Trailblazer and Q7 are "right sized". The Rogue is a shade small for me.

The good news about the kids is that they require less "stuff" as you go along. The pack and play stopped making the trip around 2yrs old. That was a GIANT space hog in the car. Likewise, we don't bring a "diaper bag" with us anymore once they are potty trained. Also, the second kid requires SOOO MUCH less crap than the first. You learn really quickly what you must have, and what was "I'm not sure, we might need it" stuff.

Here's our Yukon on the first trip to Grandma's when our oldest (now 10) was only a few months old. Had spare milk in the cooler, clearly there's a jump pack in there for the truck I didn't need. Some camp chairs in there as well. But this was just the wife, the boy, and I. No dog or second child. Filled a Yukon to the windows.
View attachment 167221 <--Click to make bigger

Here's the back of my pickup from vacation in '19. Oldest was 8, youngest was 9mo. We took ALL THE THINGS with us on this trip. There are cornhole boards in there, the packnplay, coolers, drinks, toys, video game systems, all kinds of crap. It was insane the amount of stuff we took. I think I even see a stroller in there. Good grief it was too much.
View attachment 167222

This weekend we had 3 suitcases, and my backpack. All 4 of us. The Rogue wasn't even full to the windows in the back. Oldest is 10, youngest is 3-1/2. They each had a small backpack of toys/electronics in the second row with them. Otherwise, no big deal.

Honestly, we aren't there yet, lol. We are still in the "I wish we had brought xyz" mode. Space behind the 2nd row is a big deal for us, but our dogs are very cuddly, and one is 75 pounds. The other is only 15 but thinks the Carseat is a neat mapping spot. So one of my goals would be pack the suitcases and such in the 3rd row and put the dogs in the way back in their own area. But there's really not many vehicles that have much space behind a 3rd row.

One thing I've started to notice a lot is a lot of "large" SUVs with roof boxes. We bought a roof bag for a trip to New York pre baby, and figure a roof box means they use it consistently enough to justify the extra cost and storage space. I'm terrified of being the people with an armada or Tahoe that needs a hard roof box vs just buying a suburban (the wife flat out refuses a suburban).

 

[2kwik4u]

Honestly, we aren't there yet, lol. We are still in the "I wish we had brought xyz" mode. Space behind the 2nd row is a big deal for us, but our dogs are very cuddly, and one is 75 pounds. The other is only 15 but thinks the Carseat is a neat mapping spot. So one of my goals would be pack the suitcases and such in the 3rd row and put the dogs in the way back in their own area. But there's really not many vehicles that have much space behind a 3rd row.

One thing I've started to notice a lot is a lot of "large" SUVs with roof boxes. We bought a roof bag for a trip to New York pre baby, and figure a roof box means they use it consistently enough to justify the extra cost and storage space. I'm terrified of being the people with an armada or Tahoe that needs a hard roof box vs just buying a suburban (the wife flat out refuses a suburban).

Yea, there is not much space behind the 3rd row in the Q7. Our Traverse was TERRIBLE at that. Yukon didn't have a 3rd row, neither did the SS. I would suggest "flipping" the dogs and cargo. Put the cargo in the way back, and the dogs in the 3rd row. Even then, you're going to be tight on space with 2 adults and a baby's worth a "stuff".

I have a "dry bag" that I used in the pickup before I got a bed cover. Was like $50 from Amazon and it works great. We were going to make a trip to FL with the grandparents in the Traverse and would have used the dry bag and a hitch mount cargo tray to make it happen. Relatively inexpensive, and would have worked well.

I'm getting ready to pull the trigger on a roof rack for the Audi. Really good chance I'll get a cargo tray for that to use on vacations with the dry bag moving forward. Our trip to FL with the boat in June has us using the boat like a cargo trailer. 3 adults 2 kids and one of the kids in a car seat didn't leave us enough room in the cabin for all out luggage. Then the boat was also full of crap like coolers, beach chairs, umbrellas, etc. Honestly, I've been considering a small utility trailer for landscaping, home improvement, furniture, motorcycle/atv, etc use. That might be another option for you, a small 4x8 Harbor Freight style trailer with a gaggle of sealed totes on it is an easy way to make it happen.