Trailer issues

[mntnresq58]

Hi all.

So my '06 SX 230 has been great so far.

One issue which I've been working through is the trailer. Mine is the painted version, which has the rear axle disc surge brakes.

For reasons not yet clear to me, the rear axle seems to have a variety of issues.

First, the tires on the rear axle are completely smoked, after about 2000mi. The front axle has a bit of cupping, but not terrible.

Second, the bigger issue is that the hubs on that axle get pretty freaking hot, even after a short haul. Today, after a 4 mi drive, they were so hot you can't grab them. Fronts are cool. I cleaned and repacked both axles last year, soon as I got it home. Bearings and seals are (were then) fine.

The brakes are on the rear axle, so obviously that will input some heat to those hubs, but this seems excessive. It's to the point the rear hub bearing savers are starting to puke grease.

My truck setup probably does bias the weight a bit to the back, but it's pretty close to even (stock Armada, -4 drop hitch).

I'm going to tear it all apart, and repack the bearings, and replace as needed. Brakes don't seems to be dragging. I'll pull them apart and re lube the sliders, etc as well.

Just curious if anyone else has had some similar issues.

Thanks

 

[FSH 210 Sport]

Hi all.

So my '06 SX 230 has been great so far.

One issue which I've been working through is the trailer. Mine is the painted version, which has the rear axle disc surge brakes.

For reasons not yet clear to me, the rear axle seems to have a variety of issues.

First, the tires on the rear axle are completely smoked, after about 2000mi. The front axle has a bit of cupping, but not terrible.

Second, the bigger issue is that the hubs on that axle get pretty freaking hot, even after a short haul. Today, after a 4 mi drive, they were so hot you can't grab them. Fronts are cool. I cleaned and repacked both axles last year, soon as I got it home. Bearings and seals are (were then) fine.

The brakes are on the rear axle, so obviously that will input some heat to those hubs, but this seems excessive. It's to the point the rear hub bearing savers are starting to puke grease.

My truck setup probably does bias the weight a bit to the back, but it's pretty close to even (stock Armada, -4 drop hitch).

I'm going to tear it all apart, and repack the bearings, and replace as needed. Brakes don't seems to be dragging. I'll pull them apart and re lube the sliders, etc as well.

Just curious if anyone else has had some similar issues.

Thanks

Sounds like your calipers are hanging up and are causing the brake pads to drag on the rotor.

 

[zipper]

Agree with @FSH 210 Sport . You have a sticking caliper. I replaced mine when they got so hot they lost a buddy bearing cap and flung grease all over the rim.

 

[mntnresq58]

Yeah, sticking calipers was one of my first thoughts as well. But, both hubs I could spin with one finger, and no apparent dragging at all. I am going to pull the calipers off, clean and re- lube the sliders, etc and see if that helps. I'll let you know what I find.

The tire wear doesn't make sense to me though. Maybe the brakes lock up occasionally, and it's just eating the tires that way? Not sure. I don't believe that axle is bent or out of alignment. Guess I will try to take some measurements and see if anything seems off.

The brakes were in a terrible state when I got the boat last year, the master cyl was basically dry, but not leaking and the fluid was super nasty. I replaced it, flushed the system a few times, and got it working well, but so far it's been a bit of a pain.

Perhaps it's just time to swap it to electric brakes, which would kind of be my preference anyway. I like the idea of disc, but the clunking of the slide is annoying, and I much prefer the control of electic. Electric over hydraulic seems ideal, but I don't think it's worth the $1500 or so it would cost to set it up. Both of my axles do have tabs for backing plates, so swapping over wouldn't be a huge thing, and electric brake kits are fairly cheap.

 

[dgfreeze]

Agree with pretty much everything said so far. Might add this: electric brakes are definitely cheaper, but they are also inferior to disc. Not as smooth, consistent, and a little more prone to issues down the road. That said, I completely understand why you would switch over to electric. I've seriously considered it myself. If you have a laser thermometer, get the temperature readings. It'll vary a lot, but if you're going over......say about 175 degrees with normal towing (not a lot of hills, etc), then I'd say it's a definitely a problem. If it's 160 or less, you might've just had the bearing cavity too full, and the hot (expanded) grease had to go somewhere. Just remember, these brakes will get too hot to touch. Shouldn't necessarily burn your hand on the rim, but too hot to handle is normal.

 

[mntnresq58]

Agree with pretty much everything said so far. Might add this: electric brakes are definitely cheaper, but they are also inferior to disc. Not as smooth, consistent, and a little more prone to issues down the road. That said, I completely understand why you would switch over to electric. I've seriously considered it myself. If you have a laser thermometer, get the temperature readings. It'll vary a lot, but if you're going over......say about 175 degrees with normal towing (not a lot of hills, etc), then I'd say it's a definitely a problem. If it's 160 or less, you might've just had the bearing cavity too full, and the hot (expanded) grease had to go somewhere. Just remember, these brakes will get too hot to touch. Shouldn't necessarily burn your hand on the rim, but too hot to handle is normal.

Yeah. If EoH wasn't so expensive, I would definietly go that way. Both have their drawbacks. Once I get the tires back on (getting 2 new tires today), I'm going to pull the brakes off, clean/lube, and make sure the calipers are wide open. I made 2 new lockout tabs for the actuator so it doesn't engage, then I'll take it for a drive. If they still get hot, then could be too much grease, bearings are going or something else. At least I can rule out/in the brake issue.

 

[FSH 210 Sport]

As you mentioned check the measurement between the center of the hubs on each side to make sure the axles are at least parallel. From your description it sounds like the rear axle may be skewed. That alone would put a lot of heat into those wheels!

Pictures always help the group help you with your issues.

I had the axles in my toy hauler aligned, toe and camber, each wheel had different camber and one axle was toed out and the other was towed in.

If you’re not will to go the electric over hydraulic route I wouldn’t be going to electric drum brakes, that’s a whole other maintenance issue and drum brakes don’t work as good as disc brakes anyway. Look at it this way, if you pop for the EOH set up you can always return the brakes to the surge set up when you move on to another boat.

 

[mntnresq58]

I still need to check the alignment of the axles, didn't have much time today. As for pictures, not sure how that helps in this case. I can't really take a picture of how hot the hubs were, and all else looks totally normal.

But, so far, it seems that the brake drag theory may be somewhat correct. I got the two new tires on the front axle, and pulled the brake axle hubs off. The grease looked and smelled ok, but they were pretty full. I didn't get new seals, so I could only pull the outer bearing, and cleaned out the hub the best I could. I opened up the calipers, greased the slider pins, and then cleaned out all the grease and did a semi-repack. I left the calipers open to the point that there was nearly an 1/8" gap on either pad, then double locked out the actuator. After a 3 mi or so drive, the rear hubs were cooler than the front (basically cold).

A couple things I noticed- the two worn tires, which were on the brake axle, were a slightly different size than the front, which I didn't notice before (205/70 vs 205/75). The higher rpm of those may have contributed to the heat. Again, when I jacked it up and pulled the tires off the brake axle the other day, the brakes basically exhibited no drag. I could spin the hubs with one finger, and only the starboard side tire had 1 small spot where you could feel contact with the pad. That said, just trying to get a screwdriver in anywhere to puh the piston back was a challenge. There wasn't really any gap between the pads and rotor.

So currently I have no brakes, but I also don't have apparent heating issues. I've got a 50ish mi drive to the lake tomorrow, so will see for sure. The question at this point is what I do to fix the problem. Are the calipers just not releasing enough? Is the Master Cyl not letting pressure off, or doing so very slowly? Are the brakes just too small for this boat/trailer and simply getting too hot? I'll have to spend a little more time with it, but I'm still leaning towards going electric. Yes, they aren't the perfect solution, but $1500 for EoH isn't in the budget right now (plus likely replacing calipers, etc). I can leave it surge, and just start throwing parts at it (calipers, lines, another master Cyl, etc) but that may just be chasing my tail. And, for a few hundred bucks, I can have a totally different braking system.

There is of course the driver component. I may also be forcing an issue which isn't, or at least adding to it. With my old truck ('15 Frontier), it was borderline able to manage the weight of the boat. I got in the habit of jamming the brakes on the truck, to "set" the trailer brakes, then easing off and modulating to stop. I still find myself doing that to a degree. That probably put more stress on the trailer brakes than "normal", and keeps them harder engaged than usual. But, that dynamic is one of the reasons why electric appeals. I can dial in the gain and have the trailer brakes apply more or less than the truck as needed.

Anyway, thanks for the input, I will see what the next week or two holds, and decide from there what to do.

 

[FSH 210 Sport]

I still need to check the alignment of the axles, didn't have much time today. As for pictures, not sure how that helps in this case. I can't really take a picture of how hot the hubs were, and all else looks totally normal.

But, so far, it seems that the brake drag theory may be somewhat correct. I got the two new tires on the front axle, and pulled the brake axle hubs off. The grease looked and smelled ok, but they were pretty full. I didn't get new seals, so I could only pull the outer bearing, and cleaned out the hub the best I could. I opened up the calipers, greased the slider pins, and then cleaned out all the grease and did a semi-repack. I left the calipers open to the point that there was nearly an 1/8" gap on either pad, then double locked out the actuator. After a 3 mi or so drive, the rear hubs were cooler than the front (basically cold).

A couple things I noticed- the two worn tires, which were on the brake axle, were a slightly different size than the front, which I didn't notice before (205/70 vs 205/75). The higher rpm of those may have contributed to the heat. Again, when I jacked it up and pulled the tires off the brake axle the other day, the brakes basically exhibited no drag. I could spin the hubs with one finger, and only the starboard side tire had 1 small spot where you could feel contact with the pad. That said, just trying to get a screwdriver in anywhere to puh the piston back was a challenge. There wasn't really any gap between the pads and rotor.

So currently I have no brakes, but I also don't have apparent heating issues. I've got a 50ish mi drive to the lake tomorrow, so will see for sure. The question at this point is what I do to fix the problem. Are the calipers just not releasing enough? Is the Master Cyl not letting pressure off, or doing so very slowly? Are the brakes just too small for this boat/trailer and simply getting too hot? I'll have to spend a little more time with it, but I'm still leaning towards going electric. Yes, they aren't the perfect solution, but $1500 for EoH isn't in the budget right now (plus likely replacing calipers, etc). I can leave it surge, and just start throwing parts at it (calipers, lines, another master Cyl, etc) but that may just be chasing my tail. And, for a few hundred bucks, I can have a totally different braking system.

There is of course the driver component. I may also be forcing an issue which isn't, or at least adding to it. With my old truck ('15 Frontier), it was borderline able to manage the weight of the boat. I got in the habit of jamming the brakes on the truck, to "set" the trailer brakes, then easing off and modulating to stop. I still find myself doing that to a degree. That probably put more stress on the trailer brakes than "normal", and keeps them harder engaged than usual. But, that dynamic is one of the reasons why electric appeals. I can dial in the gain and have the trailer brakes apply more or less than the truck as needed.

Anyway, thanks for the input, I will see what the next week or two holds, and decide from there what to do.

Pictures of the tires to show how the tread is worn off would be helpful. If you can spin the tires when off the ground there isn’t any excessive brake drag.

 

[mntnresq58]

Pictures of the tires to show how the tread is worn off would be helpful. If you can spin the tires when off the ground there isn’t any excessive brake drag.

Oh, gotcha, duh.

Unfortunately, I didn't get any pics of the tires before they were replaced. Looking back at a picture from last year, they definitely were not as worn as they were now. I put the two new tires on the front axle, and will keep an eye on the rears. If there is an alignment issue (which I suspect there is), then at least it's chewing up the old ones. But, they were fairly uniformly bald. One had either bad cupping, or maybe a broken belt. I'll keep a closer eye on how they wear.

As for the brake drag, yeah it definitely was not difficult to spin the tire with it in the air. My suspicion is that they are releasing, but slower than they should be. Just need to determine if that is due to the sliders being sticky, something in the hydraulic circuit isn't letting the pressure off, or what. I'm going to run without the brakes today, and see how it goes.

 

[FSH 210 Sport]

I don’t think it’s the brakes.

Check the axles center to center on each side and I’m betting you will find the axles are not parallel.

 

[mntnresq58]

I don’t think it’s the brakes.

Check the axles center to center on each side and I’m betting you will find the axles are not parallel.

Yeah, I'll try to check it today. But, after the 50mi drive to the lake yesterday with the brake actuator locked out, the hubs were basically cold.

 

[mntnresq58]

Yeah, I'll try to check it today. But, after the 50mi drive to the lake yesterday with the brake actuator locked out, the hubs were basically cold.

I don’t think it’s the brakes.

Check the axles center to center on each side and I’m betting you will find the axles are not parallel.

So, after nearly 100mi to the lake and back, with the brakes locked out, the brake axle hubs were cool to the touch. I drove it across town this morning about 6 mi, with the brakes enabled, and the hubs were again almost too hot to touch. Maybe I'm just over analyinzing this, and the brakes just put that much heat into those hubs. I will try to drag it aorund some more this week, and check the actual temp with my IR Thermometer. Maybe everyones run that hot normally.

As for the alignment, I took some measurments between the axle tubes, ind several spots, both inside/inside, and outside to outside. There is about an 1/8 difference. Not sure that is enough to cause the tire wear I was seeing, but maybe. I did notice, and I think this may be normal, but both axle tubes have a slight bow in them. Putting a 4ft level across the top, there is about a 1/4 dip in the middle of each one. Even if that is not normal, they are both bent the same and I would suspect would cause undue wear on the inside of the tires on both axles. The rear was the only one with bad tire wear.

As to the hot hubs thing, I thought of one other possible thing I think could be part of the issue. When I replaced the master cylinder last year, I did not replace the return spring or the shock in the actuator. I get a pretty solid thud when taking off, so I think it is largely releasing the pressure on the master cylinder. But, maybe if the return spring is weak just movement of the trailer while driving is allowing it to creep up and partly apply the brakes, so they drag a bit while driving, but releases enough when stopped, so there doesn't appear to be brake drag when I spin the tire? Who knows. Kinda grasping at this point.

 

[FSH 210 Sport]

And how did the tires feel with brakes non op and op?

Yes, you need to put a heat gun on the hubs, feel is too subjective. And, driving across town with the brakes activated means your brakes are working far more than cruising down the highway.

Trailer axles often times have a bow in them.

If you have air in the brake system the slider will compress fully then extend from the fully collapsed position making for a more pronounced thunk when taking off. Once I re did my brakes and got them working again there was a noticeable decrease in the thunk.

 

[mntnresq58]

And how did the tires feel with brakes non op and op?

Yes, you need to put a heat gun on the hubs, feel is too subjective. And, driving across town with the brakes activated means your brakes are working far more than cruising down the highway.

Trailer axles often times have a bow in them.

If you have air in the brake system the slider will compress fully then extend from the fully collapsed position making for a more pronounced thunk when taking off. Once I re did my brakes and got them working again there was a noticeable decrease in the thunk.

The tire temps I'd say were about the same, maybe a bit warmer. But the ambient temps were a good bit different so that could play into it.

Yes, the brakes will def work more in town, and could heat more. But, really all this came up when I went to launch after that same 50 mi highway drive a few weeks ago, and just for the heck of it felt the hubs to try to gauge how the bearings were doing. Nearly burned myself.

I'll get some temps next time I'm out with it. I'll see about re-bleeding the system, and see what that does. May just pull it all apart, reflush the whole thing, rebuild the calipers, etc. I'll have to find the part#'s specs for those, and see if there is a seal set out there somewhere.