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Maptuner X 192

Midnight2V

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I never could figure out which regulator would work on our boats. It looks like they mount on top of the tank, and I'm not sure there is enough room. Dean's team sells a drop in regulator for $100 that raises fuel pressure by 10 psi. I bet there's a tune for the maptuner that uses that regulator.

Is this the one you are talking about? Its a worx unit that is in-tank for $99.

https://www.4-tecperformance.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=16_82_95&products_id=3599&zenid=htjiqtq0kjes02og7pg8mi35p0

In any case, I bet you're right, shouldn't be any trouble at all to map that FPR into any injector curve for a Maptuner X...and for about $380 less compared to the other kits. All the Riva units I looked at were engine vacuum referenced and were rising rate pressure anywhere between 20-80 psi above manifold pressure. I'm sure that makes it much easier to tune, because fuel flow is consistent in a rising rate setup, then again they are able to tune for the stock unit so it shouldn't be any more difficult. I'll talk to Brian and see what he thinks. I'm pretty sure the 340 LPH Riva pump with a +10 FPR can handle anything the ETLB/B2 wheel can generate below 9000RPM.

BTW @SamCF , do you think it was the in-tank stock pump filter that could have failed and gave you that near miss? I'm pretty sure I'm going to buy the Riva upgraded in-tank filter as well.
 

SamCF

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Is this the one you are talking about? Its a worx unit that is in-tank for $99.

https://www.4-tecperformance.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=16_82_95&products_id=3599&zenid=htjiqtq0kjes02og7pg8mi35p0

In any case, I bet you're right, shouldn't be any trouble at all to map that FPR into any injector curve for a Maptuner X...and for about $380 less compared to the other kits. All the Riva units I looked at were engine vacuum referenced and were rising rate pressure anywhere between 20-80 psi above manifold pressure. I'm sure that makes it much easier to tune, because fuel flow is consistent in a rising rate setup, then again they are able to tune for the stock unit so it shouldn't be any more difficult. I'll talk to Brian and see what he thinks. I'm pretty sure the 340 LPH Riva pump with a +10 FPR can handle anything the ETLB/B2 wheel can generate below 9000RPM.

BTW @SamCF , do you think it was the in-tank stock pump filter that could have failed and gave you that near miss? I'm pretty sure I'm going to buy the Riva upgraded in-tank filter as well.
Yeah that is the regulator I was talking about. I have one, but need to send my ECU back to Dean to setup for that fuel pressure.
My fuel filter was clogged with silicone. No idea how it got in the tank, but it was a mess. I bought this fuel pump as it was recommended on Greenhulk as a high flow replacement. It is a direct plug in and only $54.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000EVN7W8/ref=od_aui_detailpages00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

The rising rate would be really nice, as you could adjust it for different elevations and temperature changes. They are really expensive, and I just don't think they will fit without some modification.
 
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SamCF

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Jgorm

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As @swatski said, octane boosters are not ideal for permanent use. Torco is the only one i would ever consider and i would only consider that for an emergency situation where i couldn't get the octane required.

I'm highly skeptical of all tunes, especially tunes that you don't verify afr sand timing on. loads of vendors just take the stock tune and add 2 or 4 degrees. Like tow tunes on gasoline truck, strongly consider not running then if you will be at wot more that a few seconds unless you can verify afr.

Never ever change the fuel pressure on an efi vehicle! Ever! The tuning to make it run right is complex, and that is if the ecu has a fuel pressure sensor. If not, it will f everything up.

Being the guinea pig is tricky. I like to wait a couple years for vendors to blow up customers engines before they work out all the bugs and make it safe.

What is the wheel you guys speak of? I've been Ford efi tutoring for over a decade but these engines are new to me.
 

SamCF

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As @swatski said, octane boosters are not ideal for permanent use. Torco is the only one i would ever consider and i would only consider that for an emergency situation where i couldn't get the octane required.

I'm highly skeptical of all tunes, especially tunes that you don't verify afr sand timing on. loads of vendors just take the stock tune and add 2 or 4 degrees. Like tow tunes on gasoline truck, strongly consider not running then if you will be at wot more that a few seconds unless you can verify afr.

Never ever change the fuel pressure on an efi vehicle! Ever! The tuning to make it run right is complex, and that is if the ecu has a fuel pressure sensor. If not, it will f everything up.

Being the guinea pig is tricky. I like to wait a couple years for vendors to blow up customers engines before they work out all the bugs and make it safe.

What is the wheel you guys speak of? I've been Ford efi tutoring for over a decade but these engines are new to me.
These tunes have been in use and refined for years on these motors. There have been some that blew motors. The weak points have been found, and "safe" tunes and mods established.

The fuel pressure regulators are used due to the nature of the "canned" tunes. Dean has world records with his tunes, but he can't send out the perfect tune for every climate and altitude. Same with the other tunes. They will get close, but will need to be dialed in with the FPR.

The FPR is also a bandaid for maxed out fuel injectors. Higher pressure can lower the duty cycle and make an undersized injector work.

These are very reliable even with the level of mods we are talking about. You do have to monitor AFR. Something will eventually go wrong and it will blow something if not caught quickly.
 

Jgorm

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This is what we did in the 90s. Use a boost referenced rising rate regulator so it only raises the fp in boost. Then low boost part throttle will still work properly. This was before we had control of the ecu. Add a blower, back off the dizzy, add a rising rate regulator, and drive away on 10lbs boost with the stock tune.
 

SamCF

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This is what we did in the 90s. Use a boost referenced rising rate regulator so it only raises the fp in boost. Then low boost part throttle will still work properly. This was before we had control of the ecu. Add a blower, back off the dizzy, add a rising rate regulator, and drive away on 10lbs boost with the stock tune.
Around 13 psi boost these injectors are maxed. Most are useing rising rate and some change injectors. I'm at 12 psi, the expense and risk of going faster is not worth it to me. Not to mention my wife wouldn't let me hear the end of it if I break the boat. It's my hot rod, but it's the family boat first.
 

Midnight2V

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As @swatski said, octane boosters are not ideal for permanent use. Torco is the only one i would ever consider and i would only consider that for an emergency situation where i couldn't get the octane required.

I'm highly skeptical of all tunes, especially tunes that you don't verify afr sand timing on. loads of vendors just take the stock tune and add 2 or 4 degrees. Like tow tunes on gasoline truck, strongly consider not running then if you will be at wot more that a few seconds unless you can verify afr.

Never ever change the fuel pressure on an efi vehicle! Ever! The tuning to make it run right is complex, and that is if the ecu has a fuel pressure sensor. If not, it will f everything up.

Being the guinea pig is tricky. I like to wait a couple years for vendors to blow up customers engines before they work out all the bugs and make it safe.

What is the wheel you guys speak of? I've been Ford efi tutoring for over a decade but these engines are new to me.
MMT was a primary octane raising ingredient in commercially sold gasoline for over 20 years and following the removal of TEL (Tetra-Ethyl Lead) from gasoline was the only one available for several years. It is still used in Canada, Mexico and in many other places around the world as the standard octane raising ingredient in commercially available gasoline. All MMT in the USA is produced by Afton Chemical. MMT is the primary octane boosting component in Torco. The toluene in Torco's forumla is the delivery fluid and is not advertised by Torco as an octane booster, although it does have a small boosting affect. MMT is the primary ingredient in Boostane and Lucas as well. Boostane uses a patented delivery fluid other than toluene to keep the manganese from depositing in the tank. Torco is no different from Lucas except that they sell a 32 oz. container which is over twice as large an amount as Lucas, so of course it will raise the octane higher.

I use MMT as a buffer, not a booster. I just moved to a new area, with new gas stations and don't trust anything yet. Having the highest octane rating in the world does nothing if the ECU isn't taking advantage of it. Once I am confident that the fuel is ok, I'll stop using it. When I left Oklahoma, the tank was full of 91, which is the highest octane readily available in the state. It is however mostly ethanol free gasoline in Oklahoma.

The mods I am performing, and the mods @SamCF has already done require aftermarket tuning, there is just no way around it. I would never run a modified fuel system without a proper tune regardless of the system being variable boost referenced or atmosphere referenced static pressure. Using atmosphere referenced fuel pressure may be alright for naturally aspirated applications, but it becomes problematic when used on an engine using a compressed air charge. The problem only gets worse with more boost because you begin to run into fuel flow issues. These engines have Bar map sensors already in stock configuration, adding a boost referenced fuel system makes fuel tuning fairly easy. I was simply considering the static +10 FPR as a cheaper solution than the rising rate FPR. With the ETLB wheel, 10# of added fuel pressure more than makes up for the flow loss due to manifold pressure increase, and I don't intend to take power any further than this next step.

Those shady tuning practices are very prevalent in the world of automobile tuning, that is true. I've had to repair I don't know how many engines and scrap that many more because of tuning performed by several names that come to mind. I approached this tuning program for our boats with a healthy degree of skepticism, it would be foolish not to. The 1.8L SHO motor has been around since 2008, so tuners have had plenty of time to modify, learn, and experiment. The SHO is virtually identical regardless of whether it is in a PWC or a boat. The company and people I am working with have hundreds of hours of dyno time on this one platform. The relationship between Yamaha and some of the performance vendors (specifically the one I am working with) is extraordinarily close, with a lot of technology sharing happening. The relationship is similar to the one that Ford enjoys with Roush and Steeda. The company I am working with uses a fairly light touch, the tune I am using at this time is nothing more than a rpm raise and boost limit remover. The tuner module I am using is capable of displaying all critical live data while the engine is in operation. A very important fact is that these engines are over-engineered for what they are used for, and if anything, the boat is a more stable platform compared to the PWC because it is more consistently loaded (even if that load is higher) as opposed to being varied in speed and load at a high rate typical of PWCs.

The "wheel" is the supercharger impeller. These engines are factory supercharged using a gear and shaft coupled, crank driven, centrifugal supercharger manufactured by HKS. The pitch on the impeller determines the amount of boost it can generate at a given engine RPM.
 
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Midnight2V

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Well, I went out yesterday to test the Stage 2 8500 RPM tune. Unfortunately, the water was not helpful in any way. We had 2.5 foot chop and high wind all afternoon. Mostly I just tubed with the family.

Never took it past 7k and no realistic fuel improvement other than NWM to report due to the water conditions. No wake mode was about a twenty five percent improvement in mpg. The +2 setting showed 5.2-5.5 mpg consistently while fully loaded with fuel, 300 pounds of gear, and 550 pounds of people. Getting out of the hole was no problem at all either, even better than the stage 1 8100 rpm tune.

I can't wait to see some numbers with good water. We may try again today.
 

SamCF

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The hardest part of the modding process is testing without it becoming a nuisance to the family.
 

Jetswu87

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Had a chance to go back out yet?
 

Midnight2V

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I got out twice before I came back to the ship and neither time was any good weather wise. I never got above 7000 RPM, even if I had, the data would have been useless. I get back again on the 26th of July so I expect to be on the water on the 27th.
 

Jetswu87

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in for updatesss
 

Midnight2V

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Sorry to keep you waiting guys, I've been working nearly nonstop since the beginning of July. I wont be able to get the boat on the water until around the end of August.

On the bright side, I have had a discussion with Riva, and they may be able to do some boat specific tunes for stuff other than just top speed.
 

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Do you have an update?

I just got my svho IC swapped out for the Fizzle. Boat ran WOT for 1hr straight with no loss of RPM. At 7600 pretty much full hour. Also, was able to get 48/49gps. Have never seen over 47 before.

Before I invest in the maptuner, it would get good to see your results.
 

Midnight2V

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Sorry this has taken so long, everyone. I never intended this to get dragged out all summer and have no concrete results for stage 2.

I've taken the boat out just once since my last update due to work. Unfortunately it was mid afternoon, air temp was over 100 and water temp was in the mid nineties. Chop was less than a foot so not too bad there, but i had 4 passengers (2 adults, 2 small kids, plus me). I couldn't get past 8100 rpm using the stage 2 tune, and no improvements over stage 1 that I observed for speed or acceleration. I didn't really expect to have any improvement this time out though with these high temps for air and water.

I'll be taking it out again when I get home in mid October, hopefully cooler weather will help show further potential for the stage 2 tune. I will also try to do some logs for Jesus at Riva so he can review the tune and determine if any adjustment are needed.

Even if I can't get any further improvement without a new wheel, I am completely satisfied with the Maptuner X and my boat's performance just on the bone stock 8100 tune. I still recommend the Maptuner X wholeheartedly.
 

Jetswu87

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So the 8100 stock tune, is a rev limiter raise and boost limiter removal. Still stock timing tables? Running 87 or 91+?
 

SamCF

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So the 8100 stock tune, is a rev limiter raise and boost limiter removal. Still stock timing tables? Running 87 or 91+?
I don't have a Maptuner, but I think you are right. 8100 rev limit with boost limiter increased or removed.
 

Midnight2V

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So far as the tuner remarks on the Maptuner X display indicate, the boost limit is removed.
 
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