RIVA Maptuner X ECU Reflash: Throttle Response and Speed Control

[Stevenpigsooie]

It’s not just the fuel sitting that’s bad though. Ethanol is harmful to the fuel system components.

 

[swatski]

It’s not just the fuel sitting that’s bad though. Ethanol is harmful to the fuel system components.

Sure, more so with older systems though.
But - for most of us there is simply no way around it and all new systems are basically designed with 10% EtOH in mind as far as choice of plastics etc.

As far as performance, ethanol actually raises gasoline octane rating - the higher the ethanol content, the higher the octane.

So - back to the reflash - if anyone wants to switch to E85, Jesus/RIVA can make you a very very good tune, I'm told.

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[gmtech16450yz]

Sure, more so with older systems though.
But - for most of us there is simply no way around it and all new systems are basically designed with 10% EtOH in mind as far as choice of plastics etc.

As far as performance, ethanol actually raises gasoline octane rating - the higher the ethanol content, the higher the octane.

So - back to the reflash - if anyone wants to switch to E85, Jesus/RIVA can make you a very very good tune, I'm told.

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In FI engines E85 is THE fuel to use. I've been using it in FI engines for over a decade, it has a couple major advantages over pump gas. The biggest isn't actually just the octane, which is roughly 108, it's the charge cooling. The fact that you have to use 25% more of it, and the fact that ethanol or alcohol has some pretty good cooling properties of it's own makes using it in high intake air temp and combustion temp engines amazing.

That's not really an issue with NA engines. Most NA engines are NOT knock limited on pump premium. Meaning you can get pretty close to MBT or max power on pump premium without getting into knock. That's rarely true in FI engines. Few FI engines can get to MBT on pump premium. That means there's no way they're going to be at peak efficiency on pump gas. Using race fuel gets you to MBT, but doesn't do anything for charge cooling. Use a fuel that inherently works better at cooling and using 25% more of it, and the fact that it's almost impossible to get knock BEFORE reaching MBT, ethanol is awesome for boosted engines. In an ~800hp supercharged or turbo'd V8, you can gain an easy ~75hp just going from pump premium to E85.

So IF my boat was boosted, I absolutely would be running E85. As far as running it on the 1.8's? I doubt there's much to be gained. The loads that would cause knock just aren't as bad as in an automotive application. I'm betting Yamaha has the ignition timing within 4 or 6 degrees of MBT bone stock. I'm a huge fan of giving an engine all the ignition timing you can, but even giving these little NA 4 bangers an additional 10 degrees isn't really going to be a huge difference. And I'd be shocked if Yamaha is running these tunes 10 degrees off of optimum.

Honestly, in this application there's a lot to be said for being able to run cheap 87 octane fuel and getting decent performance. I run premium in every vehicle I own, always have. That's because half of them are boosted and all of them are tuned to use it. But I'm actually enjoying using cheap gas in this boat. When you pull your truck and trailer up to the pump and have to fill 80 gallons worth of gas tanks, it's kinda nice to put cheap gas in one of them at least.

 

[gmtech16450yz]

So - back to the reflash - if anyone wants to switch to E85, Jesus/RIVA can make you a very very good tune, I'm told.

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I have to add something here. This scares the cr@p out of me. Seriously. Switching from pump gas to E85 without monitoring fueling with a wideband is insane and VERY dangerous. Can these stock injectors deliver 25% more fuel? Can the pumps provide it? What is the injector duty cycle on the stock injectors on pump gas vs. on E85? What are the fuel pressures doing at WOT/full rpm? What are the ignition timing changes?

Without the answers to ALL of these questions, having someone reflash a tune that's supposed to be for E85 is again, insane and extremely negligent. Just one little factor, the fact that you can push ignition timing to dangerous levels without realizing it because it's very hard to produce knock on E85 makes building a tune very tricky. Sure, you might not get any knock, but you'll wonder why you hammered your crank and rod bearings to the point of catastrophic failure. And the fact that 25% more fuel is needed isn't a trivial thing either. If the fuel pumps can't provide that amount of volume at the proper pressure, you're gonna burn up an engine.

Here's the advice from somebody that's done this stuff for about 4 decades... DO NOT attempt to run E85 without monitoring fuel pressure, exhaust content with a wideband, injector pulse widths and duty cycles and preferably exhaust temps also. That's at the very least. Unless you like living on the edge and don't mind throwing away a couple of perfectly good engines.

 

[swatski]

I have to add something here. This scares the cr@p out of me. Seriously. Switching from pump gas to E85 without monitoring fueling with a wideband is insane and VERY dangerous. Can these stock injectors deliver 25% more fuel? Can the pumps provide it? What is the injector duty cycle on the stock injectors on pump gas vs. on E85? What are the fuel pressures doing at WOT/full rpm? What are the ignition timing changes?

Without the answers to ALL of these questions, having someone reflash a tune that's supposed to be for E85 is again, insane and extremely negligent. Just one little factor, the fact that you can push ignition timing to dangerous levels without realizing it because it's very hard to produce knock on E85 makes building a tune very tricky. Sure, you might not get any knock, but you'll wonder why you hammered your crank and rod bearings to the point of catastrophic failure. And the fact that 25% more fuel is needed isn't a trivial thing either. If the fuel pumps can't provide that amount of volume at the proper pressure, you're gonna burn up an engine.

Here's the advice from somebody that's done this stuff for about 4 decades... DO NOT attempt to run E85 without monitoring fuel pressure, exhaust content with a wideband, injector pulse widths and duty cycles and preferably exhaust temps also. That's at the very least. Unless you like living on the edge and don't mind throwing away a couple of perfectly good engines.

Oh for Goodness sake! My comment about a E85 tune was a quip. Hence the "" emoji I used.

NO, I DO NOT RECOMMEND OR ENCOURAGE ANYONE TO RUN REFLASH AND E85 IN THEIR YAMMIES.
I am not privileged to any specific information on RIVA tunes for E85 for these engines.


That said, RIVA Racing and Jesus can do it if they want to, that is what they do.

That's also why I have zero interest in playing with Map Edit etc, as I have no interest in blowing my engines.


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[swatski]

That's not really an issue with NA engines. Most NA engines are NOT knock limited on pump premium. Meaning you can get pretty close to MBT or max power on pump premium without getting into knock.

That is correct.
And - another really good reason for anyone at altitude to consider a reflash!
(Air is thinner at high altitude - less air going into the cylinders means less pressure at top dead center, so basically like lowering the compression ratio in the engine - N/A engines loose a lot of power there)

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[swatski]

A quick update - I'm figuring out the best pump set up, which is always a challenge. My primary tool: the L13s.
I posted some generic info on an L13s setup in a 240 somewhere else https://jetboaters.net/threads/lucky-13-l13-anti-cavitation-cone-install-2016-ar240.12099/

I've also been following @gmtech16450yz thread on intake mods and pump blueprinting, fantastic work! https://jetboaters.net/threads/pump-intake-grates-thinking-of-trying-something-taboo.15594/

Today I tested a couple of these mods - all at the same time. Not ideal but I just don't have the time right now to do them one-by-one. So - I had the intake grates "GMTECH moded", pump sealed - again (more on that in the thread above), fresh spark plugs, and played with the spacers in the L13 cones - got down to one (gold). I've got really good results!

All I can say is this boat just absolutely rocks right now.

I'm running about 7,900-8,000 max RPM on Port and ~7,800 Strbd, with almost no cavitation. Just need to add back 2-4 spacers on the Port side - to bring the max RPM down to 7,800 or so and I should be all set there! The speed was solid 52mph today, even running up the wind. But it is cool - about 50 F which helps the speed a lot (especially in N/As).
All with stock OEM impellers!


The boat is in Stage 1 (program "Stage 1 JB 8500 Torque Plus 102") - with no cavitation now it runs so good, feels literally like it's making extra 10-20% torque and power low/mid, and it is so smooth. I could not help but smile riding it today.

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[FloJet]

Oh I am so so jealous of that top speed. @swatski with so many mods you have done, how can we determine which one is helping you get to 7800-7900 RPMs. I so want to get there but not sure I want to do all those mods lol. I'm not sure how much the grate upgrade would affect things but the L13 for lil more RPM? That might be worth it to me. I'm following this post very closely as I itching to learn more from what you all are doing.

 

[FloJet]

Oh you definitely a serious boater too. On the water on these chilly days! You tha man. lol

 

[gmtech16450yz]

Wojtek, did you by chance try doing any full speed turns? Where I really noticed the grate and tunnel mod effects was going 50mph+ and just cranking the wheel as hard as you can. The boat just f'ing CUTS and never cavitates even when you leave the throttles wide open. I can go full speed, hang a 180 and be back up to full speed WAY faster than before both the pump mods and the Cobra Jet fins. That's where I "think" my theory of those blades on the grates actually helping load the pump might come into play. There's a lot of water going across the hull sideways when you're doing stuff like that, I think there's a chance those blades might just direct some water into the tunnel instead of letting it slide by.

Regardless, I do really think taking those bars out, knife-edging the blades and cleaning up the tunnel helps keep the pump full, especially in tight turn situations. I can't wait to see what my V2.0 round of mods does!

 

[swatski]

Where I really noticed the grate and tunnel mod effects was going 50mph+ and just cranking the wheel as hard as you can. The boat just f'ing CUTS and never cavitates even when you leave the throttles wide open. I can go full speed, hang a 180 and be back up to full speed WAY faster than before both the pump mods and the Cobra Jet fins. That's where I "think" my theory of those blades on the grates actually helping load the pump might come into play. There's a lot of water going across the hull sideways when you're doing stuff like that, I think there's a chance those blades might just direct some water into the tunnel instead of letting it slide by.

John, 100% agree here - I think you are right on. In fact, I feel very strongly about it. I have done several mods at once - so kind of unfair for me to comment on one in particular, but I know enough about how these boats handle to convince (at least myself) that the grates GMTECH mod helps a bunch. Mine are not as nicely done, yet. But I will be getting there. May need to buy a lath... and some metal work tool. LOL.

I can't wait to see what my V2.0 round of mods does!

I can not freaking wait!!!!! I am glued to the forum looking at your progress. I think you have totally nailed the weak points and going about it in a very impressive fashion.

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[swatski]

Oh I am so so jealous of that top speed. @swatski with so many mods you have done, how can we determine which one is helping you get to 7800-7900 RPMs. I so want to get there but not sure I want to do all those mods lol. I'm not sure how much the grate upgrade would affect things but the L13 for lil more RPM? That might be worth it to me. I'm following this post very closely as I itching to learn more from what you all are doing.

I love th L13s, but I would NOT get them to get more speed. It's too much work for that, those are really best for low end cavitation control.
For speed - get you hull clean and your pump sealed, first, so there are no gaps what-so-ever, especially around the transom plate. After that - "porting" the pump and tunnel (see @gmtech16450yz posts on this: doing it the right way!) may get you some more speed, but probably not much, you will just get there faster. After that - you have to sacrifice some things. The simplest would be to go with a tune and depitch the impeller (to spin it faster) - but you will then have some issues with out the hole cavitation to deal with, unfortunately.

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[FloJet]

I love th L13s, but I would NOT get them to get more speed. It's too much work for that, those are really best for low end cavitation control.
For speed - get you hull clean and your pump sealed, first, so there are no gaps what-so-ever, especially around the transom plate. After that - "porting" the pump and tunnel (see @gmtech16450yz posts on this: doing it the right way!) may get you some more speed, but probably not much, you will just get there faster. After that - you have to sacrifice some things. The simplest would be to go with a tune and depitch the impeller (to spin it faster) - but you will then have some issues with out the hole cavitation to deal with, unfortunately.

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Very interesting indeed. What do you mean by "get your hull cleaned". I thought I kept her in tip top shape lol.

 

[swatski]

Very interesting indeed. What do you mean by "get your hull cleaned". I thought I kept her in tip top shape lol.

Oh I know. It was not directed at your boat, rather just as a general reminder. Even slightest growth will make the hull wet and drag the speed down like crazy. Can happen literally overnight in warm climates.

 

[FloJet]

Oh I know. I was just messing with you lol. But it is crazy that it can affect speed and drag like that. I wonder if my keel guard is doing the same thing? Seems ever since I installed that is when I have lost some speed but can't really remember for sure.

 

[swatski]

Oh I know. I was just messing with you lol. But it is crazy that it can affect speed and drag like that. I wonder if my keel guard is doing the same thing? Seems ever since I installed that is when I have lost some speed but can't really remember for sure.

I doubt it has a major impact. I’m running with a 9 or 10’ KeelShield on mine, can’t remember - but it is long.
At any rate - I think that top speed is kind of overrated, my best friends run in awesome wake boats and they are probably topping out at 35.
In case of our yammies - I do pay attention to max RPMs as that is a great sentinel of what’s going on with the engines and the pumps. The top speed should just correspond to it - after adjusting for load, hull and weather conditions. Easy to spot impeller or cavitation issues - that’s all.

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[druppert]

@swatski did you put a tune on a boosted 19’ as well? I’ve kicked around the idea of tuning my 195 but I’m concerned about the need for a blow off valve if I do so. After reviewing the installation instructions for the one made by HKS (sold by RIVA) I think it’s more work than I feel comfortable doing, specifically drilling intake manifold. What’s everyone’s thought on the need to install a BOV for a tuned SVHO application? I don’t think I’d have much interest in going beyond the ‘stage 1 stock’ tune level.

 

[swatski]

@swatski did you put a tune on a boosted 19’ as well? I’ve kicked around the idea of tuning my 195 but I’m concerned about the need for a blow off valve if I do so. After reviewing the installation instructions for the one made by HKS (sold by RIVA) I think it’s more work than I feel comfortable doing, specifically drilling intake manifold. What’s everyone’s thought on the need to install a BOV for a tuned SVHO application? I don’t think I’d have much interest in going beyond the ‘stage 1 stock’ tune level.

Mine 190 was a N/A, so it took a lot of work to get it to 49mph at some point, but no boost. I would not think you would need a BOV for Stage 1, but I could be wrong. @SamCF has done Dean's I think. Jerry Gaddis and Jesus Garcia on greenhulk will have all the answers. The main reason I like RIVA /Maptuner X is the customer service is great and they are willing to make APS mapping adjustments to suit a boat throttle, the reflashes are reversible in seconds, and the programs preserve all the native yamaha functions.

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[SamCF]

The need for a BOV is determined as much by driving style as boost level. Running hard in chop with the pump coming unhooked, or dropping the throttle hard at high boost will kill the supercharger clutch. Higher boost makes it a bigger problem, but it's not the main factor.

I'm running Dean's Tune, and the boat screams, but he still hasn't got back to me with a fix to enable cruise and no wake mode.

I think the Maptuner is the way to go right now.

 

[Neutron]

A BOV is a good preventive measure for the SC clutch. Regardless of the tune.
Not sure of the svo or svho boats but the BOV i got for the ski was super easy to install. Maybe 10 minutes.
I got the 50mm Tial