RIVA Maptuner X ECU Reflash: Throttle Response and Speed Control

[MattFX4]

Interesting reading this thread, coming from the jet ski workd i can agree with a lot of the OP has said here and the rest of the guys. I have worked with Jesus at riva and can say the guy knows what he is doing. Anybody can youtube how they make their tunes as they test AFR on each cylinder shring the whole process. To adress the SVHO engine on the 240/242 boats, a better and cheaper solution will be turbo kits. I know it sounds like a lot but its not really. I personally own a turbo Yamaha ski and believe it or not you can run a turbo on stock pump and injectors and still be reliable. I would be more worried about the supercharger clutch maintenance. In the future i plan to install a turbo kit in both engines but i have only owned the boat for 3 days. My current ski runs 91mph at 8800 rpms and 18psi. I have a stock block sho from 2010 with 165 hours. I ride over 200 miles on a weekend without loosing reliability. It is a big step and lots of people will never attemp this but to each its own. Good luck and looking forward to mod my 242.

You would be a forum legend if you put turbo's on your 242 limited S!!

 

[swatski]

@swatski, I'm not sure if this had been addressed in the thread here already, but is it possible to still achieve a similar improved dynamic range in the throttle response with these tunes and still used "regular" octane fuel? Or is that only achievable thru mechanical mechanical means thru mods like @gmtech16450yz has made?

I have raised that very question (about tuning for regular fuel) with both the Maptuner Swedish team (back when I had my sx190) and more recently with Riva/Jesus (as in this thread) - all 1.8 N/A engines. I would get no response, or a confirmation that all their tunes require 91+ octane fuel. That's it. They do not recommend running on regular gas with any of their tunes, period.
(what does 91+ octane translate in UT - I don't know exactly - but it would be the same conversion as done for cars, so whatever you guys call premium up there would be required)

Not exactly sure why. But I would think that whatever these guys do with the maps invariably involves leaning the AFRs somewhere, and besides - no one interested in performance runs on regular fuel anyway.

Regarding the throttle response maps - the difference in performance is so significant - a wife can tell!
[I am so going to regret this comment...]

No difference in WOT.
I would think that's because there is not much room for improvement? (in a factory tune for N/A engine)

So, in other words (contrary to some of the postings of another member claiming Riva and other teams focus on WOT performance) - in my boat the difference in reflash is felt in the low/mid range and the throttle response curve becomes fairly smooth, and noticeably so.

[EDIT: of note, they make several tunes with more or less aggressive throttle mapping]

The good news is - when I am stuck with regular gas and forced to run stock ECU tunes - the @Ridesteady system becomes a saving grace. With the knob the throttle response is super smooth, as I can fluidly progress in 10-20 RPM increments across the entire range!


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[J-RAD]

Thanks for your thorough answers @swatski and @gmtech16450yz. With the amount I end up using the my Ridesteady for both waterspots and cruising I'm not sure I if there's justification for me to make any changes... I honestly never really noticed much of anything with the throttle function being abnormal prior to your two posts. It could have been a situation where I never really had anything to compare it to... I hope Yamaha is taking notes. It seems like a few tweaks could substantially improve the quality feel and responsiveness of their products.

 

[swatski]

@swatski, I'm not sure if this had been addressed in the thread here already, but is it possible to still achieve a similar improved dynamic range in the throttle response with these tunes and still used "regular" octane fuel?

The short answer is no. The one honest hp (power) gain in N/A engine is a tune which takes advantage of higher octane. That's pretty much it. This allows tuning to legitimately run advanced timing, without getting into the marginally safe areas. And that's what they provide (at the price of the tuner plus tune/license).

After pondering this issue for a while, IMO the Maptuner X w/RIVA tune ("canned") is the way to go (whatever anyone else says). At high altitudes/elevation I would think this would be a wonderful investment. Done by people who are extremely capable (Yamaha boats/skis ECUs are notoriously locked down and very few who can unlock those) and provide honest service. It changes the whole load/RPM map resulting in more power in mid range and much quicker throttle response.

One does not need to commit to always running 91/93 octane, the Maptuner X is pretty close to a tune switch - to switch back and forth between stock and a reflash. I do it all the time when I'm back home - my marina only carries 87. So, when the boat is slipped on the lift there, and the trailer is put away, I run stock ECU programming. When on a lake, like Bull Shoals, where I can get 93 I reflash and enjoy.

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[J-RAD]

It sounds like it goes a long way in refining the operation and response. There's just so much fun suff to spend money on... Lol!

I have to remind myself that there's probably a chance I may upgrade models in a few years. This may not be the boat I want to throw a whole lot more money at... but damn this forum temps me every day!

Can I just ship my next boat to your driveway and have you do the full Swatski package?

 

[gmtech16450yz]

The short answer is no. The one honest hp (power) gain in N/A engine is a tune which takes advantage of higher octane. That's pretty much it. This allows tuning to legitimately run advanced timing, without getting into the marginally safe areas. And that's what they provide (at the price of the tuner plus tune/license).

After pondering this issue for a while, IMO the Maptuner X w/RIVA tune ("canned") is the way to go (whatever anyone else says). At high altitudes/elevation I would think this would be a wonderful investment. Done by people who are extremely capable (Yamaha boats/skis ECUs are notoriously locked down and very few who can unlock those) and provide honest service. It changes the whole load/RPM map resulting in more power in mid range and much quicker throttle response.

One does not need to commit to always running 91/93 octane, the Maptuner X is pretty close to a tune switch - to switch back and forth between stock and a reflash. I do it all the time when I'm back home - my marina only carries 87. So, when the boat is slipped on the lift there, and the trailer is put away, I run stock ECU programming. When on a lake, like Bull Shoals, where I can get 93 I reflash and enjoy.

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If only your opinion was based in facts instead of your wife's "feelings".

Seriously swatski, if you want to keep doing this super-over the top hard sell on a really expensive mod, you need to buy an edit license for one of your engines so you can base your posts on FACTS. $250 and you'd know EXACTLY what was changed in your tune. Short of doing that, your comments on what these canned tunes change is based on feelings and nothing else.

Comments like this that you're making...

"The short answer is no. The one honest hp (power) gain in N/A engine is a tune which takes advantage of higher octane."

I'm going to tell you from my 4 decades of actually doing this stuff for a living that your statement is wrong. For a dozen different reasons it's wrong. What are you basing that statement on? Where is your training or experience to back it up? Who told you that? Or did you simply read it on the internet? Please stop giving advice on things you really don't know anything about.

I'm really not trying to incite a riot or start a war here, I'm simply trying to keep factual information in this forum instead of feelings. FWIW, at one time I personally called Riva for info on their N/A 1.8 tunes. They said "Don't bother". Seriously. (Yes, I have the guy's name that said it.) Here's another fact... This screen shot is from a "canned" tune from a major vendor. This is the timing difference between a bone stock tune and their stage tune. Are changes like this worth ~$1500 for a twin engine boat? Highly intricate and detailed tuning going on there that's for sure. lol.

( @Jgorm you're gonna like this screen shot. hahaha.)

 

[swatski]

"The short answer is no. The one honest hp (power) gain in N/A engine is a tune which takes advantage of higher octane."

That is fact.

Please go post somewhere else. I find your comments offensive.

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[J-RAD]

@gmtech16450yz I respect your opinion as being from one with real working knowledge of engine tuning. I also respect @swatski for the obvious efforts and investments into making his boat run and feel it's best. With that's said, and at the risk of joining the conflict, I'll say this one thing.

I think your missing the point of @swatski 's intentions entirely... of course he can speak for himself on the matter, but what I've gathered from following this thread is that the exact reason for him doing this mod IS for the "feel" not the gains. Any gains, however minimal, are secondary to to the objective. If these canned tunes have achieved his objective and both he and his wife "feel" a noticable difference in how his boat responds to the movement of the throttle lever across the range then mission achieved.

It's up to him and us individually to determine if the cost is worth it, but I applaud him for trying.

 

[swatski]

If only your opinion was based in facts instead of your wife's "feelings".

Seriously swatski, if you want to keep doing this super-over the top hard sell on a really expensive mod, you need to buy an edit license for one of your engines so you can base your posts on FACTS. $250 and you'd know EXACTLY what was changed in your tune. Short of doing that, your comments on what these canned tunes change is based on feelings and nothing else.

Comments like this that you're making...

"The short answer is no. The one honest hp (power) gain in N/A engine is a tune which takes advantage of higher octane."

I'm going to tell you from my 4 decades of actually doing this stuff for a living that your statement is wrong. For a dozen different reasons it's wrong. What are you basing that statement on? Where is your training or experience to back it up? Who told you that? Or did you simply read it on the internet? Please stop giving advice on things you really don't know anything about.

I'm really not trying to incite a riot or start a war here, I'm simply trying to keep factual information in this forum instead of feelings. FWIW, at one time I personally called Riva for info on their N/A 1.8 tunes. They said "Don't bother". Seriously. (Yes, I have the guy's name that said it.) Here's another fact... This screen shot is from a "canned" tune from a major vendor. This is the timing difference between a bone stock tune and their stage tune. Are changes like this worth ~$1500 for a twin engine boat? Highly intricate and detailed tuning going on there that's for sure. lol.

( @Jgorm you're gonna like this screen shot. hahaha.)

View attachment 85053

Why so angry and so condescending?

Maybe I should be more understanding... I just don't get that. You have not answered ANY of the questions I asked in the other thread.

I'm assuming you just do not want to admit that you must completely rely on the RIVA/Maptun advice to look into the Yamaha boat ECUs, right?

You are pasting a table up here to show what? Are you implying that is THE table from the reflash tune I'm describing? Really?

This statement:
The one honest hp (power) gain in N/A engine is a tune which takes advantage of higher octane.
is correct, by the way.

What exactly are your credentials? besides being an internet troll and a self-proclaimed tuner expert.

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[2kwik4u]

What exactly are your credentials? besides being an internet troll and a self-proclaimed tuner expert.

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I'll ask the same question of you. If you're gonna call someone out on the validity of their position, you better be a subject matter expert yourself. You've done this to me in the past as well. Shouldn't throw stones from a glass house.

So I'm curious, what are your credentials?

 

[2kwik4u]

Highly intricate and detailed tuning going on there that's for sure. lol.

Is that a delta between stock and modified we're looking at? I sure hope that isn't the only change in a canned tune from them!

 

[SamCF]

Let's not forget the main purpose of the forum. This thread was a review of a product for the benefit of anyone interested.

Again, it is someone's opinion of their first hand experience with a product.

You can tune engines for a living, but if you don't have first hand experience with the product in question, you have no reason to insult someone's opinion.

Keep it positive and helpful or move along.

 

[2kwik4u]

.....but if you don't have first hand experience with the product in question, you have no reason to insult someone's opinion.

I think the issue at hand is a discrepancy over the facts of how and why something works, not on if it's a subjectively good product or not.

 

[gmtech16450yz]

Is that a delta between stock and modified we're looking at? I sure hope that isn't the only change in a canned tune from them!

Yes, that is the delta between a bone stock tune and a tune from a VERY well known vendor that sells the maptuner x and tunes for boats and PWCs. There is ONE ignition timing table. There are no other ignition timing modifier tables. Those are the ignition timing changes made by that vendor in a stage tune. So if you go from a stock tune to their stage tune, your timing will be advanced 5 degrees flat in only those areas. Fact. Do I need to publish the entire tune and the vendor's name to get through some people? I don't want to do that because I'm sure everything I'm saying about them is already being relayed to them.

These are the differences between their "regular"stage tune and their "Low Octane" stage tune... (I'm not making this stuff up for those that know tuning and are shocked.)

 

[2kwik4u]

Yes, that is the delta between a bone stock tune and a tune from a VERY well known vendor that sells the maptuner x and tunes for boats and PWCs. There is ONE ignition timing table. There are no other ignition timing modifier

Wonder how much testing went into that. Sure hope it wasn't much.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[gmtech16450yz]

I think the issue at hand is a discrepancy over the facts of how and why something works, not on if it's a subjectively good product or not.

Exactly. I'm trying to point out EXACTLY what people would be getting in these very expensive tunes. Anyone that's been involved with anything where you're looking at human response to physical changes realizes that "Feelings" are very fickle. That's why pharmaceutical companies do "Double Blind" testing, because the power of suggestion is so strong. A doctor can give you a pill and tell you it will make you happy. It's very hard for the human brain to NOT be happy, regardless of what's in the pill. I'm simply trying to tell people what's in the pill. lol.

A perfect example is a well known mechanics trick for those "certain" customers. They come in and say their engine is idling rough. The mechanic opens the hood, takes a screwdriver and touches it to some random part, pretending to make an adjustment. Close the hood, start it up and watch the customer gush about how much smoother it runs and how amazing you are. haha.

Swatski, I'm not saying you're NOT feeling an improvement. I know you are. I'm happy you are. You bought a product and are thrilled with it. That's awesome. It's WHY you're feeling what you're feeling is what I'm trying to get through to you. And for OTHERS that are considering spending that kind of cash, I'm trying to tell them EXACTLY what they might be getting. And Wojtek, I'm trying to be civil and helping you learn... In many engines the PE is delayed. (power enrichment. It modifies the fueling during heavy loads to take it from stoichiometric 14.7 to a ratio that gives better power, anywhere from 10.5 to 13.5.) Ford for instance delays their PE for 60 SECONDS!!! So if you have a Ford and you change nothing but that one item in a stock tune, you will gain power. In a V10, you can gain about 30hp by simply changing PE, ON REGULAR FUEL. And FWIW example, the Ford V10 has almost no benefit from a tune setup for regular fuel vs. one setup for premium fuel. It's nowhere near a knock limited engine. Conversely, an engine like an N/A LS3 will gain a fair amount of power between a regular fuel tune and a premium or especially E85 tune.

And before you jump on me and say "But those are car engines and not PWC or boat engines, I can personally guaranty you I can build a tune on an N/A Yamaha 1.8l marine engine that will be stronger, rev better and have better throttle response AND STILL RUN ON REGULAR FUEL. Fact.

There is a TON more to tuning than what is being done or can be done in these boat/PWC tunes. And there's a ton of power that can be had in an N/A engine other than simply advancing the ignition timing to run on premium fuel. I've tuned N/A engines to run on regular fuel that ran remarkably better than stock with as much as 20% more power than stock.

 

[gmtech16450yz]

I'll ask the same question of you. If you're gonna call someone out on the validity of their position, you better be a subject matter expert yourself. You've done this to me in the past as well. Shouldn't throw stones from a glass house.

So I'm curious, what are your credentials?

I know that question wasn't for me, but I had to laugh at the "credentials" question. If you only knew what my "credentials" are you'd laugh. My first college course on engine management was in 1984, it was a course on Cadillac Digital Fuel Injection. My current course (I'll post my enrollment email screenshot below since I seem to be so hard to believe. lol.) will be to renew my California state smog Inspector and Repair Technician licenses. Does anyone have any idea how hard it is to get those licenses? It will be a course about using hardware like the Picoscope dual trace oscilloscope to diagnose CAN bus problems. My list of training, certificates and licenses alone would fill a dozen forum web pages on here, not even talking about experience like working on a race car/team that finished the Indy 500 to restoring million dollar vintage Trans Am cars.

 

[gmtech16450yz]

Let's not forget the main purpose of the forum. This thread was a review of a product for the benefit of anyone interested.

Again, it is someone's opinion of their first hand experience with a product.

You can tune engines for a living, but if you don't have first hand experience with the product in question, you have no reason to insult someone's opinion.

Keep it positive and helpful or move along.

I'm trying to be helpful. That's my only purpose of being on internet forums. Look at my posts and post count. I'm not a troll and I don't post unless it's important or worthwhile.

Seriously Sam, want me to help you get a couple more miles per hour out of your boat? I'd be happy to. Your Deans tune is probably pretty good, but if you invested in logging and editing software I'm betting you can get it dialed in even better. I'd be glad to help by looking at logs or tunes and walk you through doing it yourself. It's what I've done for a couple decades on forums like HPTuners. I teach people how to tune. I've taught hundreds of people around the country personally, almost all of them for free. (Credentials? lol. I can list a couple hundred people that I've helped one-on-one just for kicks and for no charge to do everything from tuning to rebuilding their first engine themselves.) Seriously, if you want to look into your tune on your boat I'd be happy to help walk you through it. If you documented it on here everyone would learn.

 

[SamCF]

I'm trying to be helpful. That's my only purpose of being on internet forums. Look at my posts and post count. I'm not a troll and I don't post unless it's important or worthwhile.

Seriously Sam, want me to help you get a couple more miles per hour out of your boat? I'd be happy to. Your Deans tune is probably pretty good, but if you invested in logging and editing software I'm betting you can get it dialed in even better. I'd be glad to help by looking at logs or tunes and walk you through doing it yourself. It's what I've done for a couple decades on forums like HPTuners. I teach people how to tune. I've taught hundreds of people around the country personally, almost all of them for free. (Credentials? lol. I can list a couple hundred people that I've helped one-on-one just for kicks and for no charge to do everything from tuning to rebuilding their first engine themselves.) Seriously, if you want to look into your tune on your boat I'd be happy to help walk you through it. If you documented it on here everyone would learn.

If I wanted to do my own tune, I would have bought Motec. Almost did. The reason I went with Dean is the many first hand reviews of results and reliability. I don't have the time to learn enough to do better than actual professionals.

I know the boat can go faster. It is a safe recreational tune put together by a man with multiple world championships. If he says that's as fast as I can go without hurting the motor, then I'll take his word on it.

I know "real" tuners frown on these canned tunes, and some of them are known to be basic and borderline dangerous for your motor. The point is, there is a place for these tunes, and they serve their purpose.

If I buy a $200 battery and tell everyone my boat starts better, don't come in here and tell me that you are a professional battery builder and my battery sucks. If I say it works better, then it works better for me. It's fine to disagree, just don't use your "credentials" to say I don't know what I'm talking about

No one is arguing against what you are saying. It's all probably true. Just don't be a dick about it or make it personal.

 

[gmtech16450yz]

If I wanted to do my own tune, I would have bought Motec. Almost did. The reason I went with Dean is the many first hand reviews of results and reliability. I don't have the time to learn enough to do better than actual professionals.

I know the boat can go faster. It is a safe recreational tune put together by a man with multiple world championships. If he says that's as fast as I can go without hurting the motor, then I'll take his word on it.

I know "real" tuners frown on these canned tunes, and some of them are known to be basic and borderline dangerous for your motor. The point is, there is a place for these tunes, and they serve their purpose.

If I buy a $200 battery and tell everyone my boat starts better, don't come in here and tell me that you are a professional battery builder and my battery sucks. If I say it works better, then it works better for me. It's fine to disagree, just don't use your "credentials" to say I don't know what I'm talking about

No one is arguing against what you are saying. It's all probably true. Just don't be a dick about it or make it personal.

No problem, I agree with you. Dean's tunes are much closer to optimum than others, I'd be happy and not worry about it.

I will comment on your battery example though just to give a little more insight maybe.

If you bought a battery with high cranking current and low reserve, it WOULD start better. What about if you bought a battery with a lower cranking current but a huge amount of reserve capacity? What if it was a LiPo or AGM or wet cell? What if you put two 6 volt batteries in series instead? What my knowledge WOULD be able to tell you (maybe not "you" specifically, I mean "you" in general) is the Pros and Cons of the batteries. Maybe that high cranking amp battery starts the boat better, but you often forget and leave your key on? I'd say yes your engine will start faster, but be careful if it doesn't have a lot of reserve capacity.

edit..
I'm gonna add something here on the battery subject that might actually keep somebody from being stranded. When batteries fail, they often have plenty of cranking voltage and amperage, but the capacity drop significantly. DO THIS TEST ON YOUR CAR OR TRUCK...

Turn the ignition, headlights, blower motor, radio and anything else you can find on, but with the engine OFF. Let it sit for 20 minutes. Then try to start it. If your battery is marginal or dying, it won't start. If your battery capacity is still ok, it will start fine after 20 minutes. Seriously guys, do this test. It might save you a tow. I've done this on almost every car or truck that's gone through my stall in the dealership. I'd say about 75% pass. A large percentage of the ones that fail will fail in less than 5 minutes, with the customer having NO symptoms and swearing their engine has been starting fine! This is just a little something I learned from testing thousands of batteries with everything from a test light to $2000 battery testers. Knowledge is power. (UGGGH! Sorry!)

Not personal, not trying to be a dick. Just trying to educate and share my knowledge. Some people can learn from anyone, others can't. I fully understand that there are people that will refuse to learn from me. There's nothing I can do about that. I keep trying though because I believe there are people lurking in the shadows that are learning something new.