RIVA Maptuner X ECU Reflash: Throttle Response and Speed Control

[2kwik4u]

So how long before someone figures out how to put the SVHO motors into a 240 and use the Maptuner to make them run?

I used to really enjoy tuning on my SS. Spent a big chunk of time on it, and made some good gains. I'm leaving the new Sierra and the boat alone, but really enjoy reading the progress

 

[swatski]

So how long before someone figures out how to put the SVHO motors into a 240 and use the Maptuner to make them run?

I used to really enjoy tuning on my SS. Spent a big chunk of time on it, and made some good gains. I'm leaving the new Sierra and the boat alone, but really enjoy reading the progress

I used to be quite interested in this very topic, and there was and still is a lot of speculation about when would Yamaha put two SVHOs into a boat.

Well I don't know if I, for one, am actually that interested in that anymore.

Sure you would get more power and speed, but the sharp loss of fuel economy (and range) and engine reliability does really put a dumper on the twin SVHO idea as far as I'm concerned. 52mph is about what these hulls can safely take, especially with Cobra steering. With a couple other mods that eliminate cavitation, like the L13s and @gmtech16450yz GMTECH intake grates and pump blueprinting/tunnel porting - again it's about as much as these hulls can take, I think.

As far as power and range, incidentally @ScarabMike just got a brand new Yamaha ski - and guess which model he chose!? The one with a N/A 1.8. Mike knows this stuff.

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[swatski]

@gmtech16450yz So finally the Yamaha 1.8l logging gear is available for the Maptuner X.
Skip to post #218:
http://www.greenhulk.net/forums/showthread.php?t=246087&page=22

I don't plan on getting it, but it is there, and not too bad on price I must say as far as these things go (for boats).
I guess if one starts playing with boost levels in SC - monitoring becomes a necessity. Not sure what would I do with it in my N/A engines right now, albeit it would be kind of fun to see what's going on.

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[Jgorm]

I've been efi tuning cars since 2005. I'm a dealer / custom tuner for multiple brands. I would never add a tuner on a stock na vehicle (except for auto trans tuning). The gains you are feeling are probably from the electronic throttle tuning. They can give you 100% throttle body angle at 75% stick input. 2hp for that cost of high octane is silly. 2hp is probably the realistic gain, not the bs inflated "dyno proven" gains they claim. If the engine is not knock limited, adding octane and increasing the timing won't increase power. Tune vehicles when you add or increase boost. E85 generally requires fuel pump and injector upgrades for 95% of all vehicles not designed to run on it from the factory. E85 is a bad idea in a boat!

 

[gmtech16450yz]

Yay! Wojtek now you have TWO smart guys that are going to burst your bubble on tuning or monitoring these boats! Lol. Sorry!

Everything Jgorm said is dead on. (Happy to see another car guy on here btw!) Take it from a couple guys that have seen the "other side" of the tuning world (the "real" side actually), it's simply not worth going crazy on tuning or even monitoring these engines. Just put cheap gas in them and go. (I know you already have modified tunes in your engines Wojtek, this is mostly for anyone else reading and considering diving into it.)

Believe me, I've "tuned" everything I've gotten my hands on since my '67 Mercury Cougar that I built the engine for before I even had my drivers license. It has been REALLY HARD to restrain myself from diving into these Yamaha engines. haha. H#ll, I can modify the ignition and fueling on my new Yamaha dirt bike ON MY PHONE!!! But just like Jgorm said, our experience tells us that the returns on investment of time and money would simply not be there.

Like I've mentioned before, IF I was interested in making the fastest Yamaha jet boat on the water, I'd go one of two directions anyway... I'd either go straight to Motec on the stock engines and probably put EFR turbos on them, or simply throw a couple of GM LNF engines in and be done with chasing horse power. The tuning, monitoring and hardware on something like even a 10 year old LNF are INSANELY more advanced than these Yamaha marine engines. Direct injection, dual overhead cams with full control over valve timing, water cooled turbo and one of the best engine management computers made, the Bosch E69. I've got hundreds of those engines running around the country at anywhere from 400 to 600 crank hp and torque. Throwing a couple 500hp LNF's in these boats would take it from 360hp to 1000hp, but then what would you have? A stupid waste of time and money! lol. Interesting idea that I've obviously had, but again realize that it would be pointless and dumb.

Yamaha did a good job on these boats. Yamaha engines are bulletproof and for the most part, VERY well tuned from the factory. They're not like the example of the GM LNF I gave where stock they put out 260hp/260tq and with tuning and fuel changes only you can almost double that. And as far as the boat itself goes, as we all know, they work exceptionally well for what they were designed for. But also as we've all learned, these hulls don't like to go over 55mph. As you've seen with my exhaust system mods, I'm actually going backwards on power mods there. I started out trying to optimize the exhaust for optimum flow. What did it do? It made it louder, not a single mph faster. Was it quicker? I have no idea, these boats are quick enough. So what am I doing now? Forgetting about modding the exhaust for max flow and power, but instead modding it for maximum noise reduction. We'll see if my mods effect top speed or quickness, but I doubt seriously if it will have any effect. I've had my boat out a little over a dozen times now. It did 54mph the first time on the water. It did 54mph the last time out a dozen trips and mod fests later. No amount of monitoring the exhaust by-products of the stock engines is gonna change that.

BTW, it's interesting that they're selling a wideband that us HPTuners guys found to be too slow for tuning transient fueling. I guess it's fine for a boat, especially since their software probably can't deal with a digital wideband, but again, it's caveman stuff compared to where the auto side of the tuning world is at...
https://www.hptuners.com/forum/showthread.php?55546-AEM-30-0300-Wideband-with-direct-CAN-integration-W-VCMScanner-Need-beta-testers


So wait, that logging software is an ADDITIONAL $250? And I'm betting that's for ONE engine so it's actually $500? So that puts the total of 6 different software licenses to log and modify tunes for two engines at something OVER $3000? Are they insane? Oh plus an additional $400 for a couple of outdated widebands and an hdmi cable they can't even throw in for free? Yikes!

 

[swatski]

Guys - this forum rocks, love the feedback is awesome! I'm going to re-read and re-respond later with some depth, but just VERY quickly to some of the points:

The gains you are feeling are probably from the electronic throttle tuning.

100% agree. And yes, there is BIG improvement in throttle response, and I mean: BIG. Kate (wife - who is NOT into engine mods) could immediately tell the difference - without being told what the boat was tuned for. The difference is obvious - almost all of it due to the improved throttle response/tuning - exactly like you said!

Same top speed with gain of power in mid-range. So the bottom line is - if one wants to do this to smooth the throttle response primarily, and the results are fantastic.

The only other thing - to take it to the next level - would be to slap some Livorsi throttle levers on it!

Tune vehicles when you add or increase boost.

Yes, power increase in N/A is modest, and little gain at WOT - no more timing to pull and not boost to gain.
I'll be testing my range for improvements there, already planning a couple of controlled long runs - testing the reflash vs stock ECU programming.

HOWEVER
Please, guys, consider two important points:
1. I can tune or go back to stock in under 4min, on the water - that is an amazing feature of the Maptuner X system
2. Speed gains are ABSOLUTELY possible - and easy - because the RPM rev limiter can be changed as much as you ask for

Those gain require impeller modifications - repitching the impellers to take advantage of custom rev limiter. Otherwise (without re-pitching) the max RPM (and top speed) are only marginally improved - the boat is palpably "quicker" in getting to the top speed but not much faster at WOT.

TWO smart guys that are going to burst your bubble on tuning or monitoring these boats!

John, you've already burst my bubble - months ago!!!! LOL. Done.

It did 54mph the first time on the water. It did 54mph the last time out a dozen trips and mod fests later. No amount of monitoring the exhaust by-products of the stock engines is gonna change that.

Correct. I have known that for few years now, experimented with this in my old 190, never was able to gain much on top unless I started playing with impeller pitches. Then you cavitate on the bottom end/hole shot and so on...

So wait, that logging software is an ADDITIONAL $250? And I'm betting that's for ONE engine so it's actually $500? So that puts the total of 6 different software licenses to log and modify tunes for two engines at something OVER $3000? Are they insane? Oh plus an additional $400 for a couple of outdated widebands and an hdmi cable they can't even throw in for free? Yikes!

That's why they call those things BOATS, don't they, LOL.
But seriously, John, there is no point of comparing an aftermarket cost of a performance mod for a mass produced car, take Honda Civic, with a small-niche boat engine! Which is more like an exotic car as far as volumes. There is no way you can do this on the cheap, and I'm okay with that.

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[Jgorm]

100% agree. And yes, there is BIG improvement in throttle response, and I mean: BIG. Kate (wife - who is NOT into engine mods) could immediately tell the difference - without being told what the boat was tuned for. The difference is obvious - almost all of it due to the improved throttle response/tuning - exactly like you said!

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I'm not sure you understand my point. Our I tuned the engine to give it full throttle at the tb when you give it 1/8 throttle, it would feel like the boat really improved. The reality is that 7/8 of the throttle now does nothing. Tape a 2x4 tio the throttle so it goes down farther than your hand and you get the same effect. Since Venice me? Go do 3 back to back timed 0-30mph runs with a phone based gps performance app. Flash the new tune and do it three more times. The vendor would do 3 pulls up river with the stock tune and 3 pulls down river to claim gains. But from your greatly detailed post on this I suspect that you may be a vendor, it have a close friend that is the vendor.

 

[swatski]

I'm not sure you understand my point. Our I tuned the engine to give it full throttle at the tb when you give it 1/8 throttle, it would feel like the boat really improved. The reality is that 7/8 of the throttle now does nothing. Tape a 2x4 tio the throttle so it goes down farther than your hand and you get the same effect.

I think you maybe missing the point here:
The throttle response is re-mapped in these RIVA tunes based on processing the APS signal. With the reflash, I get a vastly improved "dynamic range" - where the response is graded, not jumping from all to nothing.
I have no idea exactly how do they do this, "reassign" APS positions to throttle body open/close positions (?). Nor do I have any interest in understanding it. The bottom line is - it works for me.

Go do 3 back to back timed 0-30mph runs with a phone based gps performance app. Flash the new tune and do it three more times. The vendor would do 3 pulls up river with the stock tune and 3 pulls down river to claim gains. But from your greatly detailed post on this I suspect that you may be a vendor, it have a close friend that is the vendor.

Not exactly sure what to make of this comment???

I think it is funny you think I may be a vendor! (If that's what you are saying) I'll take it as a compliment.
While I assure you I am not a vendor.

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[robert843]

I think it is funny you think I may be a vendor! (If that's what you are saying) I'll take it as a compliment.
While I assure you I am not a vendor.

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Yes @swatski is not a vendor here is where this process started 2 years ago and I helped facilitate talk him into his first map tune on his 190 . I'm not a vendor either and have not done this mod.

https://jetboaters.net/threads/top-speed-rpm-question.6393/page-4

 

[swatski]

For full disclosure - I did receive some perks! LOL


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[Jgorm]

My bad. I've been around forums a long time and find that many times people post glowing and detailed reviews to sell product. The alternative is they are detailed and helpful. thanks!

I'm not sure what the aps signal is, but on dbw throttles there is a table for accelerator input and throttle angle output. (As a very simplified explanation). Lots of tuners simply multiply the angle output for the same pedal input. It makes the customer think their car is faster because it hauls ass at much lower throttle input. The chances of a Yamaha having such a poorly tuned engine where the spark and fuel are so far off that there is room to increase power across the board for genuine throttle response is highly unlikely. There is a company that sells a device that plugs into your accelerator pedal and simply modifies the signal to the ecu. They claim increased throttle response and have made a ton of money. Lots of people like it, but I choose to push the throttle a bit harder when I need to go faster. One of my buddies setup his wife's mustang so it goes wot with 1/4 throttle. She wasn't impressed.

I suggest to carefully inspect your plugs for signs of detonation on a regular basis. Never ever run the tune with 87! Yamaha tunes for every weather and water temperature on tons of engines. Aftermarket tuners make a tune for one condition, and one engine, then ship then across the country. I've seen big time companies provide some super shitty tunes. This company may be different as I've never heard off them. I wish you the best of luck, but blindly trusting ANY tune is a huge risk. Personally I'd never run any tune on any vehicle without a wideband to verify afr.

 

[swatski]

My bad. I've been around forums a long time and find that many times people post glowing and detailed reviews to sell product. The alternative is they are detailed and helpful. thanks!

I'm not sure what the aps signal is, but on dbw throttles there is a table for accelerator input and throttle angle output. (As a very simplified explanation). Lots of tuners simply multiply the angle output for the same pedal input. It makes the customer think their car is faster because it hauls ass at much lower throttle input. The chances of a Yamaha having such a poorly tuned engine where the spark and fuel are so far off that there is room to increase power across the board for genuine throttle response is highly unlikely. There is a company that sells a device that plugs into your accelerator pedal and simply modifies the signal to the ecu. They claim increased throttle response and have made a ton of money. Lots of people like it, but I choose to push the throttle a bit harder when I need to go faster. One of my buddies setup his wife's mustang so it goes wot with 1/4 throttle. She wasn't impressed.

I suggest to carefully inspect your plugs for signs of detonation on a regular basis. Never ever run the tune with 87! Yamaha tunes for every weather and water temperature on tons of engines. Aftermarket tuners make a tune for one condition, and one engine, then ship then across the country. I've seen big time companies provide some super shitty tunes. This company may be different as I've never heard off them. I wish you the best of luck, but blindly trusting ANY tune is a huge risk. Personally I'd never run any tune on any vehicle without a wideband to verify afr.

Okay, I see what you mean. It is actually the opposite problem with Yamaha throttle levers, they tend to go from zero to WOT in 1/8th of the range - from factory.
Awful.
The best description of just how horrible Yamaha throttles are is the one that @gmtech16450yz posted - I think he totally nailed it, I will just refer to it here:
https://jetboaters.net/threads/video-yamaha-throttle-slipping-from-2nd-detent-using-no-wake-mode.15825/#post-272414
I can only wish I had @gmtech16450yz's knowledge and manufacturing ability - to be able to fabricate my own throttle levers and APS (accelerator position sensors) wheels from scratch!
But I don't. So - for me - it was simply easier to go with something tried and true: the Maptuner reflash.
I have done this before, with excellent and very satisfying results:
https://jetboaters.net/threads/vtech-maptuner-ecu-reflash-first-impressions.7818/
I dont see myself being disappointed this time either, and so far so good.

I must admit I'm guilty of spending way too much of my free time reading about boats and jet boats in particular! But I don't think I'm guilty of being completely naive.

One advantage of running Yamaha boats is the same engines are used in jet skis - and there is A LOT of testing of performance mods going on there. Not everything translates well, but some things do.

Maptuner/Vtech reflashes have been tested and tested for years against competition and have proven themselves to be pretty solid performers. Things got even better after RIVA took over the Maptuner development, some less than two years ago. Albeit I have had nothing but excellent experience with the original Swedish team. With both the Jonatan's team from Vtech and now Jesus Garcia in RIVA I have always been able to get strait answers, even if it wasn't what I wanted to hear. Very professional people, passionate about the sport.

They don't offer ECU reflashes for MR-1 engines, by the way. Why? Because they can not make anything that would work. 1.8s - are different story. Even N/A.

I have also tried many other performance mods. Some work, some don't.
Some only work if you work on them, such as the L13s. It can be a wonderful tool - or - a total waste of money - depending what one does with it.
https://jetboaters.net/threads/anyone-tried-the-lucky-13-perfomance-adjustable-pump-cone-in-a-boat.7967/page-3#post-191695
https://jetboaters.net/threads/lucky-13-l13-anti-cavitation-cone-install-2016-ar240.12099/page-2#post-272044


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[1_fast_ar240]

Interesting reading this thread, coming from the jet ski workd i can agree with a lot of the OP has said here and the rest of the guys. I have worked with Jesus at riva and can say the guy knows what he is doing. Anybody can youtube how they make their tunes as they test AFR on each cylinder shring the whole process. To adress the SVHO engine on the 240/242 boats, a better and cheaper solution will be turbo kits. I know it sounds like a lot but its not really. I personally own a turbo Yamaha ski and believe it or not you can run a turbo on stock pump and injectors and still be reliable. I would be more worried about the supercharger clutch maintenance. In the future i plan to install a turbo kit in both engines but i have only owned the boat for 3 days. My current ski runs 91mph at 8800 rpms and 18psi. I have a stock block sho from 2010 with 165 hours. I ride over 200 miles on a weekend without loosing reliability. It is a big step and lots of people will never attemp this but to each its own. Good luck and looking forward to mod my 242.

 

[seanmclean]

91MPH? Holy Shit.

 

[1_fast_ar240]

Kind of fast lol

 

[seadude]

BoatTest got 52.3 mph @ 20.5 gph on their latest 195 SVHO test (a much better result than previous tests IIRC) vs 43.2 mph @ 11.9 gph on the 190 HO.
Extrapolating to the 240/242 which they tested with a best result of 51.8 mph @ 22.9 gph, in theory that twin SVHO engine (245?) could do 62.7 mph @ 39.4 gph.
In reality the extra drag and jet pump losses at the higher speed would likely drop top speed to well under 60 mph, but that 40 gph fuel consumption figure is real.
If 60+ mph is your goal a big outboard on a light boat makes a lot more sense!

 

[swatski]

BoatTest got 52.3 mph @ 20.5 gph on their latest 195 SVHO test (a much better result than previous tests IIRC) vs 43.2 mph @ 11.9 gph on the 190 HO.
Extrapolating to the 240/242 which they tested with a best result of 51.8 mph @ 22.9 gph, in theory that twin SVHO engine (245?) could do 62.7 mph @ 39.4 gph.
In reality the extra drag and jet pump losses at the higher speed would likely drop top speed to well under 60 mph, but that 40 gph fuel consumption figure is real.
If 60+ mph is your goal a big outboard on a light boat makes a lot more sense!

I would tend to agree. These Yammies really seem to be hitting a wall of sorts around 50mph. Can that be pushed - yes but it is not trivial.
@SamCF pushed his 192 (w/ many mod and 195 parts) to 60mph - it was a lot of work.

I have gotten my 2012 190 to 49mph (with a lot of mods that would -temporarily- negatively affect the hole shot). Hole shot/pulling/towing power is the limiting factor in singles, and by the time I had a monster hole shot my 190 was barely hitting 40mph, which was fine and the best settings for that boat. I clocked the current AR240 at 56mph or so several times, but I would never call those results "real" as in "representative". I have screen shots of Connext, lol.

Of course there are those members here who will show you a speedo with 56 or 57mph and claim they have a hot shot boat, but in reality those are not sustainable speeds.
Unless you are prepared to go all out, kind of like what @SamCF did - that is A TON of work and money and time spend testing. For some of us it is hobby, so it's okay. But the range of the 55+mph twin would be abysmal.
Anyway, just saying.

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[Noko]

Just put cheap gas in them and go. Thats pretty much been my feeling. It was interesting to hear about the factory tour and the guys from the factory didn't winterize. I think these boats have been thought about too much in what needs to be done. Lots of great mod ideas here but the boats are basically big Yamaha jet skis. So for me, change the oil and thats about it.

 

[J-RAD]

@swatski, I'm not sure if this had been addressed in the thread here already, but is it possible to still achieve a similar improved dynamic range in the throttle response with these tunes and still used "regular" octane fuel? Or is that only achievable thru mechanical mechanical means thru mods like @gmtech16450yz has made?

 

[gmtech16450yz]

@swatski, I'm not sure if this had been addressed in the thread here already, but is it possible to still achieve a similar improved dynamic range in the throttle response with these tunes and still used "regular" octane fuel? Or is that only achievable thru mechanical mechanical means thru mods like @gmtech16450yz has made?

Tricky question. haha. There are problems in the throttle and APS system that can only be "fixed" mechanically. There is also a single table in the tuning that controls the throttle mapping. But throttle response is far more than the physical mapping of the throttle lever vs. the throttle plate. So the answer to your question can only be made by seeing exactly what is in the stock tune and logging the effects of it all. The ultimate answer is to both "fix" the mechanical side and then modify the tune. Incidentally, when the tune is properly built, that one throttle mapping table can actually be perfectly fine left stock. Dips or low power areas in the throttle and rpm range a lot of times has more to do with the actual tuning than how far open the throttle plate is. It's far from a linear situation.

In other words, if the fueling and ignition timing is right on at idle to 1/4 throttle, but far off at 1/3 to 1/2 throttle, it will "feel" like it starts going good, but then you're moving the throttle lever further without it doing anything. Make sense? haha.

BTW, this throttle response thing isn't exactly tied to a certain fuel octane rating really. You can tune a perfectly nice running engine to run on regular fuel.

Here's what the stock throttle mapping table looks like btw...