TR-1 hydro locked- smoking after repair

[MFalcao]

Hi all,

After hydro locking the starboard engine (my fault, bought the boat with 150 hours last year, starting the season made the mistake of wrong sequencing the dry start), “clean” the water, flush 2x the engine and running on the lake for 4 to 5 hours, rod broken while 6k rpm’s and crankshaft case blow up. we sent it to a Yamaha dealer (Elite) and bottom part of the engine replace by Yamaha parts, went for a test and a lot of white(blue) smoke out of the engine. Pull the boat out of the water and hull was black with burned oil ( see pictures) Took it back to the dealer and after re-opening the engine notice that a guide for the time chain was broken and also replaced the valves of the 3rd cylinder (the one with the broken rod), back in the water could get more than 7400 rpm’s (port side runs 7800 easy). Dealer spend a week with the boat testing before releasing and that 400 rpm wouldn’t bother me as he couldn’t find out why… spend 2 weeks with the boat and after 12 hours (spent 4 hours easy the engine in…) smokes back again and reves won’t pass 6200 rpm. Because of the smoke notice oil level went down a lot… below minimum. Hull has the same black stains. Rings are new, rods, pistons,… all new from Yamaha. What else could it be? Would bad valves cause that? Engine doesn’t start easy as the pot one. But it starts and low revs don’t see smokes… after 5 to 6k smokes starts and boogs after 6k… also add pictures of the engine when first stop after hydro lock… nasty hole on the crankcase.

 

[David Martin]

Yakes...what a nightmare Yamaha paid for a repair but it would appear the dealer missed something on reassembly .............hopefully he will stand behind his job.

Good luck

 

[Dixemon]

Sure is hard to diagnose something like that on an internet forum. But you better believe if i paid someone to rebuild my motor, with the problems your having, it would be going straight back to them.

 

[MFalcao]

I’m definitely taking it back… just frustrating not knowing what would be the problem… hopefully it has happened before with someone else. My main question would be if Yamaha sold a bad part wouldn’t show the problem right away? I find hard to believe that I was able to run the new engine for 10+ hours and smoke starts again after that. The dealer is taking ownership of the issue (which is expected) but he kind of lost as he couldn’t find anything wrong (talking about the lack of 400 missing revs). Now with the engine smoking again I hope it will direct him towards the proper issue. Let’s see. I will drop the boat back to him and wait… 5 more weeks and season is over…

 

[dgfreeze]

I don’t want to disparage the dealership, as things like this can be a pain in the ass, but do you know if they did a compression test or a leak down test? It could be as simple as the ring gaps on a piston lined up, or an air filter that got oily. An engine starving for air can create a vacuum that pulls oil through the valve guides. Odds are slim, but simple to rule out. The 10 hours of no issues is what’s somewhat perplexing. Also, I’m not sure how replacing a broken timing chain guide and a couple valve guides could temporarily fix the oil consumption unless it’s more of a head gasket issue, or cracked head, or something down those lines. Did they say why they changed the valves? And if this was a hydro lock situation, I’d hope they got the head tested for cracks?

 

[MFalcao]

Not sure if the head was tested but dealer told me that he measured the compression and was ok. Valves and guides were changed only from the 3rd cylinder due to hydro lock as rod damage the cylinder, and the timing chain and guides were replaced as the broken rod snapped and hit the crankcase and wall behind it. The 10 hours are getting to my nerves… since 2/3 of the engine was replaced, left only the head and o agreed it’s pointing that direction but a cracked head would be showing signs right away? Never got high temp,.. not sure a head gasket would be “burned”.

 

[MFalcao]

I don’t want to disparage the dealership, as things like this can be a pain in the ass, but do you know if they did a compression test or a leak down test? It could be as simple as the ring gaps on a piston lined up, or an air filter that got oily. An engine starving for air can create a vacuum that pulls oil through the valve guides. Odds are slim, but simple to rule out. The 10 hours of no issues is what’s somewhat perplexing. Also, I’m not sure how replacing a broken timing chain guide and a couple valve guides could temporarily fix the oil consumption unless it’s more of a head gasket issue, or cracked head, or something down those lines. Did they say why they changed the valves? And if this was a hydro lock situation, I’d hope they got the head tested for cracks?

Air intake and filter are clear and clean. Just notice a little “grease” wall after the filters before the intake muffler. Since it is smoking I believe it’s a side effect not a cause… right?

 

[dgfreeze]

Likely an effect, agreed.

So, a cracked head can have a range of symptoms, and sometimes those symptoms don't show up until they're well saturated with heat. Another thing that would help in addition to a leak down test is doing a vacuum/pressure test (water manometer or digital equivalent) on the PCV while it's running to see if the crankcase is over pressurizing. Somewhat pointless without the factory specs, but it would give some indication of things, especially if you're getting oily residue in the intake runner. Crazy thing is, it could be something completely unrelated to anything we've even discussed. If there's an oil cooler that is allowing oil into the coolant water, after which the water mixes in with the exhaust, I could see this all happening also. But, a cracked oil cooler doesn't explain the lack of rpm's, which I still feel has a good chance of being related.

 

[David Martin]

I'm with dgfreeze on the oil cooler it would explain oil interduced into water jacket but not the lack of RPM...............Pull the Plugs and see what happening in the cylinders. If one or 2 plugs are black you have to look at heads...block pressure...valves...cracked head ect. If all plugs show black I would lean towards INTAKE SIDE pulling oil in the intake manifold.

 

[MFalcao]

Dropped the boat back this morning… I kind of feel sorry for the dealer as he (owner) is looking after the engine, at least after the second failure. He also seems beaten, asked him about the possibility of bad parts from Yamaha and I’m pretty sure that he will pressure them as well as this is hurting his pocket as well…Hopefully the 3rd time is a charm. keep you guys posted. I’ll send an email with all the point discussed here and maybe open a door… thank you for now!!

 

[dgfreeze]

I can feel his pain, I've been in the same position, and it sucks. Hopefully something can be dialed in on, repaired, and all problems disappear. Best of luck to ya!

 

[MFalcao]

I can feel his pain, I've been in the same position, and it sucks. Hopefully something can be dialed in on, repaired, and all problems disappear. Best of luck to ya!

Tks guys… hopefully I will be able to get some knowledge and be a reference for someone who needs… let’s see.

 

[YoDaddy292]

I wouldn't be so sure you caused the hydro lock. I had this happen with under a 100 hours on the boat and did everything right while out on the water. We were parked for about 2 hours and the port motor wouldn't even turn over. Luckily my buddy recognized the signs and we pulled the spark plugs and blew the water out. Here we are a year later and no issues. Hell once we blew out the water we ran it the rest of the day and have close to 200 hours on it now with no issues. It's supposed to be impossible but we blew water out of all three cylinders.

 

[Neutron]

@MFalcao where are you located?

 

[CarolinaJet]

I wouldn't be so sure you caused the hydro lock. I had this happen with under a 100 hours on the boat and did everything right while out on the water. We were parked for about 2 hours and the port motor wouldn't even turn over. Luckily my buddy recognized the signs and we pulled the spark plugs and blew the water out. Here we are a year later and no issues. Hell once we blew out the water we ran it the rest of the day and have close to 200 hours on it now with no issues. It's supposed to be impossible but we blew water out of all three cylinders.

How did you blow the water out? Crank it while plugs were out?

 

[YoDaddy292]

How did you blow the water out? Crank it while plugs were out?

Yes. It was crazy. We blew the water out, checked the oil for any intrusion (there was none), then we literally hauled ass around the lake to make sure we got it all out. At first I thought I had a dead battery until the starboard motor fired without a hitch. I even tasted the fluid on top of the pistons and all three were h2o. One more reason to carry a plug wrench.

 

[FSH 210 Sport]

My favorite thing about machines is that if they are lied to they tell the tale.

In this case something was not done correctly. There are a lot checks that have to be made on an engine other than compression and replacing obviously damaged parts, especially when there has been a catastrophic failure. The crank could be bent which would easily explain the loss of 400 rpm. The block and head should have thoroughly checked. That bit about only replacing valves and guides on the third cylinder because it was hydro locked ??? That speaks to doing a short cut, and short cuts / lying to the engine tell the tale.

It’s not bad parts, it was the person who rebuilt the engine who lacked talent and experience / expertise.

Hindsight being what it is, it would have cheaper for the dealer to have bought a crate motor from Yamaha and dropped it in.

Experience is what you get when you don’t get what you want. That dealer just got a big dose of it.

 

[FSH 210 Sport]

I wouldn't be so sure you caused the hydro lock. I had this happen with under a 100 hours on the boat and did everything right while out on the water. We were parked for about 2 hours and the port motor wouldn't even turn over. Luckily my buddy recognized the signs and we pulled the spark plugs and blew the water out. Here we are a year later and no issues. Hell once we blew out the water we ran it the rest of the day and have close to 200 hours on it now with no issues. It's supposed to be impossible but we blew water out of all three cylinders.

If I remember correctly in that situation you had come into an area at a cruise speed, we’re trying to be courteous, and cut the engines and coasted up to an anchorage / sandbar. Also if I remember correctly your buddy is a mechanic by trade, and he knew there was most likely no damage because the engine didn’t move, as opposed to one that fires and slams a piston under power into a column of water. I am glad to see your engine is going strong.

 

[YoDaddy292]

If I remember correctly in that situation you had come into an area at a cruise speed, we’re trying to be courteous, and cut the engines and coasted up to an anchorage / sandbar. Also if I remember correctly your buddy is a mechanic by trade, and he knew there was most likely no damage because the engine didn’t move, as opposed to one that fires and slams a piston under power into a column of water. I am glad to see your engine is going strong.

Yep. Except I did not cut the engines I idled in then spun it around in reverse to line it up facing out, then shut off. You’re memory is good sir

 

[MFalcao]

My favorite thing about machines is that if they are lied to they tell the tale.

In this case something was not done correctly. There are a lot checks that have to be made on an engine other than compression and replacing obviously damaged parts, especially when there has been a catastrophic failure. The crank could be bent which would easily explain the loss of 400 rpm. The block and head should have thoroughly checked. That bit about only replacing valves and guides on the third cylinder because it was hydro locked ??? That speaks to doing a short cut, and short cuts / lying to the engine tell the tale.

It’s not bad parts, it was the person who rebuilt the engine who lacked talent and experience / expertise.

Hindsight being what it is, it would have cheaper for the dealer to have bought a crate motor from Yamaha and dropped it in.

Experience is what you get when you don’t get what you want. That dealer just got a big dose of it.

Agreed!

Just a FYI got a call from the dealer as boat is ready. Questioned about the repair and for the third time how sure it is done he said that an oil deflector plate gasket wasn’t replaced properly and that was the cause of the smell and smoke. I am not a newbie into engines but honestly I never heard about it and had no idea about the functionality. I did search a little bit but couldn’t find any reliable information for that kind of engine so I had to base my “agreement “ to the solution based on what he said. Apparently a technician from Yamaha was called as it was a big headache for everyone. If that was the cause it was an easy fix and that is the scary part… an easy fix was missed… how many more missing steps would be showing? The money we spent for more than 3/4 of an engine definitely would had been better drop the whole engine… that would be my 2 cents if asked.