EV discussion - hate or love?

[2kwik4u]

Only briefly on a test drive. Again to be fair, I'm sure it's implemented differently in each make. I'm more commenting on the people who claim to only use OPD. They may be full of it, or maybe they're just super annoying and/or dangerous drivers. I dunno.

I have gone weeks without touching the brake pedal. Hell, I did two full days of medium level off roading and didn't touch the brake pedal. I've also hustled a Model 3 up/down the Mt Lemon roads outside Tucson, AZ at 7-8/10 effort, without touching the brakes.

Here, check out this video. I did the same descent without touching the brake pedal. Should explain both one pedal driving and the falsely understood "fake off road" comment from earlier.

New video by Mike Dobrick

photos.app.goo.gl

There's nothing annoying, or dangerous, about OPD.

 

[Bluewater272]

I can just see someone who's totally used to OPD not paying attention while they drive, looking up from their phone and seeing a kid in the road, panicking and taking their foot off the throttle and just hoping for the best. Think of all the stories of stupid people spilling hot coffee, eating tide pods, etc and tell me it isn't plausible.

The people who would do this are the same ones who mistake the gas and brake pedal in ICE vehicles and drive through storefronts. There are abject morons amongst us - OPD or not.

 

[2kwik4u]

How come when I read this all I hear in my head is Naughty by Nature “You down with OPD, yeah you know me”!

I keep trying to ignore this thread but I just can’t. Gotta see how one EV nerd is gonna insult the other EV nerd.

More like a bunch of EV nerds against a bunch of curmudgeons afraid of difference.

 

[2kwik4u]

Well.....There are new folds in the EV changover for me.

I've been accumulating a list of things to get addressed since the battery bullshittery back in March. Truck went in with 7 issues this morning. Some minor and nit-picky, some major. Here's the list with some notes

• Chassis
  • Truck pulls to the left, and has since purchase.
    • Alignment has been addressed twice and won't "stick" past about 100 miles
    • Possibly a front subframe issue
  • Front end "clunks" over sharp edged bumps
    • Have been told this is "normal", however it's becoming more frequent
    • Something is clearly loose and needs to be addressed
  • Rear driveline "clunk" on dual motor engage/disengage
    • Suspect this is "normal", but is noticeable now was not on delivery
    • Might be related to an update changing the engagement timing
    • Not sure on this, but need a response from Rivian on it.
  • Due for tire rotation
    • This is on me, just needs to get done while they have it.
• Exterior
  • Front Fascia has broken tabs that have been addressed once
    • New front fascia was promised. Needs to be remedied
  • Passenger gear tunnel door has "peeling"
    • I think this is protective film, but it's peeling off and looks awful
• Interior
  • PAAK and fob don't work or work poorly on a regular basis.
    • Restarting phone Bluetooth on phone seems to remedy issue
    • Removing and replacing battery in fob seems to remedy issue
    • Suspect issue with Bluetooth module in truck
  • HVAC vents are sporadic at best and require frequent recalibration
    • Often point in wrong direction or show "off" while open, or are closed when show "on"
    • Suspect an issue with stepper motors having slipped within mechanism (or electrically lost steps)
    • tech looked at this during last mobile visit and admitted an issue exists
    • Just needs new parts installed/calibrated

What's more fun......is this fun?.....is that we just drove the truck to VA/NC line and back over the long weekend. About 1,200mi total trip, and about 150mi from home, we lost the rear drive unit. The rear motor engage/disengage has been an issue for awhile. Sometimes eliciting a response from my mostly un-caring wife of "What the heck was that". Well, went to pass someone on the interstate just south of the PA/NY line and it clunked/hit REALLY REALLY hard. "Turtle mode" appeared on the screen. AWD was disabled. All the drive modes disabled. Cruise and driver aids disabled. It still got us home at 70mph, but the motors heated to over 170deg (most I've seen before is around 110deg, and the rear has rarely seen 100deg), and efficiency dropped to about half of normal. Didn't leave me walking, but I was glad I played boyscout and "overcharged" a little bit before we left the last charging stop. Was planning on making it home with ~50mi of range. Landed in the driveway with 2mi of range.

Finally......OMG WTF......WHY, oh WHY is the loaner such a nicer vehicle? It's a same generation quad motor R1S. It's smooth, and quite, and powerful. it tracks straight, it rides nicely, it's quite delightful to drive. My R1T sounds like a bucket of bolts, rides like dammit, and is just generally exceptionally loud in terms of wind and tire noise. Like, I'm completely flabbergasted at the stark difference between the two. The loaner feels very close to my old Audi, my truck feels appalling poor in comparison. It's somewhat amazing they're from the same company to be honest.

I told the tech I'm taking my truck back and signing off until my truck feels/works like it should. I might be nit picking, I might be being a difficult customer, but it needs to work and feel right. We'll see what shakes out.

 

[BlkGS]

That's a whole lot of issues

None of those would I say are nitpicks in a $70k plus vehicle. The vehicle should just WORK at that price point, especially when they're selling this "EVs have less to go wrong" business.

As far as why the loaner feels better... The logical first answer is you take worse care of it than people do loaners. This seems HIGHLY Improbable. Answer 2 is maybe the SUV is designed to be more luxurious and the truck more utilitarian? Also improbable, they're basically the same thing. Answer 3 is different years, meaning the R1S is newer and thus they had better refined their processes. As I recall, your truck was like a leftover model? This is what I think is most likely, your truck was just an earlier build with some lot rot, and the R1S is a newer build doing better.

The other option is of course that Rivian has zero quality control, and their process is totally and massively incapable of a consistent result. It's very possible, but I wouldn't jump to that conclusion based on 2 data points.

 

[Julian]

That's a whole lot of issues

None of those would I say are nitpicks in a $70k plus vehicle. The vehicle should just WORK at that price point, especially when they're selling this "EVs have less to go wrong" business.

As far as why the loaner feels better... The logical first answer is you take worse care of it than people do loaners. This seems HIGHLY Improbable. Answer 2 is maybe the SUV is designed to be more luxurious and the truck more utilitarian? Also improbable, they're basically the same thing. Answer 3 is different years, meaning the R1S is newer and thus they had better refined their processes. As I recall, your truck was like a leftover model? This is what I think is most likely, your truck was just an earlier build with some lot rot, and the R1S is a newer build doing better.

The other option is of course that Rivian has zero quality control, and their process is totally and massively incapable of a consistent result. It's very possible, but I wouldn't jump to that conclusion based on 2 data points.

I love 1 pedal driving and don't think it is ANY less safe. You still have 2 pedals, and occasionally need to use the brake. When 1 pedal driving, the car automattically applies the brake if you release the gas pedal all the way. If the car isn't slowing as fast as you want, you press the brake. This isn't rocket science. Also, most vehicles with 1 pedal brakes also likely have AEB (automatic emergency braking).

Bottom line its a joy to drive in 1 pedal mode.

 

[Julian]

Oh....and I thought 1 pedal driving would be a gimmick I'd probably not care about (I never tried it before I bought an EV). Once I tried it, I realized how cool it is. Now when I drive my ICE Q7 I miss it, and always ponder the energy lost when I coast towards a red light....grin.

 

[2kwik4u]

That's a whole lot of issues

None of those would I say are nitpicks in a $70k plus vehicle. The vehicle should just WORK at that price point, especially when they're selling this "EVs have less to go wrong" business.

Official "ticket" count with Rivian is 7. They acknowledged and agreed with all of them when I dropped it off.

I don't think Rivian sells the "EV's have less to go wrong", I think EV enthusiasts say that a lot and it's become some form of understood truth that is mostly false. I still contend that all the same systems exist in an EV that exist in an ICEV. You remove an engine, multi-speed transmission, and fuel system; but then add back in a high voltage battery system. Sure, the EV has fewer moving parts, but overall part count of the vehicle is still well into the 30k range.

As far as why the loaner feels better... The logical first answer is you take worse care of it than people do loaners. This seems HIGHLY Improbable. Answer 2 is maybe the SUV is designed to be more luxurious and the truck more utilitarian? Also improbable, they're basically the same thing. Answer 3 is different years, meaning the R1S is newer and thus they had better refined their processes. As I recall, your truck was like a leftover model? This is what I think is most likely, your truck was just an earlier build with some lot rot, and the R1S is a newer build doing better.

The other option is of course that Rivian has zero quality control, and their process is totally and massively incapable of a consistent result. It's very possible, but I wouldn't jump to that conclusion based on 2 data points.

Off these two data points.....I think I just got a dud, and arguably a less than ideal configuration. My truck has ~15.5k miles and is a 30XXX vin. The loaner is a 09XXX vin, and has just over 17k miles. The loaner is a '22 R1S, quad motor, large battery with 22in "street" tires. My truck is a '24 R1T, dual motor, large battery, with 20in "All Terrain" tires. I do suspect that mine was sitting around before being sold, I'm unsure if it was "lost in the corner of the shop" or had a manufacturing issue that held it back from being released. Considering the numbers of problems, I'm betting on the manufacturing issue. Rivian made quarter end sales targets with my help, but now they get to deal with warranty issues on my side.

In terms of configuration, I think the dog style clutch for the rear motor disconnect was a poor design decision on the dual motor trucks. The quad doesn't have any of that connect/reconnect issues (mine was likely failing as well). The loaner has over 300hp MORE than mine, as well as a lighter wheel/tire package. I'm sure this masks some of the wonky suspension issues, and also contributes to the noise level. The half worn AT tires on mine are loud as dammit, I think spending 10hrs in mine on Monday, then immediately hopping into the loaner on Tuesday really illustrated how loud they are.

I'm pretty sure the loaner has the revised dampers in it as well. Mine has the original spec. Rivian updated the dampers for the Gen2 vehicles, and they are backwards compatible. This is the 3rd time I've had the loaner, and it rides SIGNIFICANTLY better now than when I had it back in November. I can't fathom the OTA updates making this marked of a change, and suspect the service center updated the dampers in the loaner. The "front clunk" issue in mine I think also contributes to the feel. I've noticed that mine had a "steering wheel shake" over square edged bumps, like expansion joints and such; the loaner doesn't do that at all. Same with the Driver assistance. Mine "jerks" when it's disengaged, the loaner has none of that. I think the alignment being off on mine is messing with things on that front.

SO.....hopefully I get some new dampers out of this, and the ride gets better. I'm considering moving to a spare set of 22in wheels, and street tires for the summer for mine for the noise reduction. I can sell the wheels when the lease is up and recoup some of that cash. Tires should last twice as long (because there are two sets now). Wheels/Tires are relatively easy to swap, and I have a spot at the office I can stash the off season units.

Ultimately, I can only complain so much. Service center continues to be SUPER communicative and easy to work with. I have a very nice loaner vehicle, and the overall impact to my life is just a little agitation, and honestly a little bit of time. I'm pretty certain that I wouldn't get this level of service from a legacy style manufacturer. I would love to compare notes with someone that loses a 6.2L in a Yukon. They're similar price point vehicles, with similar failure modes to mine.

 

[BlkGS]

Re the Yukon...

A guy on the BMW forum was one of those, relatively early failure. They gave him an Enclave loaner while they swapped his motor (something like a week). He was scared that it would fail again and traded it for a BMW.

That said, I'm sure that the experiences will be massively varied since the GM dealers are all franchises. You could get a loaner enclave or you could get an Uber ride home. The D2C model does allow for a more consistent level of service, which to be honest, is a HUGE advantage. If I knew that I was going to have a loaner of comparable or better quality any time I needed service, that'd be a big selling point. That said, what happens outside of warranty is just as important (unless you're going to just keep leasing). Importantly, if I had an emergency service type setup where my X5 lost the motor, I don't know that I would confidently say BMW would offer me a better vehicle as a loaner while I waited. In fact, I'd wager that they did not offer me a better vehicle, and it's likely be a few weeks before they could even get me a loaner.

The real question for someone like me is how will the vehicle ownership be at year 7, 8, 9, 10+? I don't expect a vehicle to need nothing for that long, but I also don't want to be locked out of being able to service it independently. I have no idea what service on a Rivian will look like when it's out of warranty, one would assume that if they can send a mobile tech out to do it, things should be fairly easy, but can you get the scan tools to work on it?

I just did transfer case fluid on my X5 (BMW says it's a lifetime fluid, I say it's a 25-30k mile fluid because it was getting shuddering backing up with the wheel turned - known issue on the X5). To do that you need a scantool to open up the s transfer case reservoir and then recalibrate the TC. I was able to buy one on Amazon for $150 that covers all the BMW service functions. Will you be able to buy that for a Rivian? I dunno, but I would want one if I planned to own it long term. And I am (begrudgingly) now someone who looks at a car as a 10 year plus cycle.

 

[2kwik4u]

I agree on all this (a rarity for us, I know). The dealership franchise model won't lead to consistency, where the direct to consumer does. I also agree that Rivian service outside of warranty is likely to be both expensive, and less friendly to loaners and other fringe benefits. I also have concerns over right to repair style issues coming up in long term ownership.

With all that said, I'm still very torn on the leasing versus buying. I've only had a handful of vehicles longer than 5yrs.

 

[Adrian @ JB Solutions]

I agree on all this (a rarity for us, I know). The dealership franchise model won't lead to consistency, where the direct to consumer does. I also agree that Rivian service outside of warranty is likely to be both expensive, and less friendly to loaners and other fringe benefits. I also have concerns over right to repair style issues coming up in long term ownership.

With all that said, I'm still very torn on the leasing versus buying. I've only had a handful of vehicles longer than 5yrs.

Finding the right deal and leasing is a great option. Walking into a dealer to get a lease deal is a horrible option. I really like leasing right now because my wife trades in so often, and in the off case she wants to keep the car - we just buy it out.

 

[BlkGS]

I agree on all this (a rarity for us, I know). The dealership franchise model won't lead to consistency, where the direct to consumer does. I also agree that Rivian service outside of warranty is likely to be both expensive, and less friendly to loaners and other fringe benefits. I also have concerns over right to repair style issues coming up in long term ownership.

With all that said, I'm still very torn on the leasing versus buying. I've only had a handful of vehicles longer than 5yrs.

I feel like we agree all the time. We agree that the TBSS is awesome. And that my car is faster, lol.

The auto industry desperately wants to move to a cell.phonentype market, where people trade up annually or bi annually. A lot of people are already hooked into the lease cycle, it works for them, good for them. If you don't want to keep cars long term, it's the best option. But one of my many flaws is the mistaken belief that I'm gonna keep a car for a long time before I get bored of it lol. My wife would keep a car for 20 years if she could, I would have 20 cars if I could lol.

In the current environment, I think it only makes sense to lease EVs. Between the rate of new releases and the tax incentives, leasing vs owning an EV just makes dollars and sense.

 

[Adrian @ JB Solutions]

I feel like we agree all the time. We agree that the TBSS is awesome. And that my car is faster, lol.

The auto industry desperately wants to move to a cell.phonentype market, where people trade up annually or bi annually. A lot of people are already hooked into the lease cycle, it works for them, good for them. If you don't want to keep cars long term, it's the best option. But one of my many flaws is the mistaken belief that I'm gonna keep a car for a long time before I get bored of it lol. My wife would keep a car for 20 years if she could, I would have 20 cars if I could lol.

In the current environment, I think it only makes sense to lease EVs. Between the rate of new releases and the tax incentives, leasing vs owning an EV just makes dollars and sense.

EVs are deprecating harder than anything we’ve ever seen (my opinion no data to back that up). It’d be foolish to currently buy one. This has been a drastic change from COVID, we traded in our Tesla for what we paid after two years. We were lucky.

Alternatively I think I found the sweet spot for buying and keeping cars. Getting exactly what I want. I custom ordered my truck exactly how I wanted it, coming up on 6 years and have zero plans to get rid of it within the next 4 years.

 

[2kwik4u]

@BlkGS TBSS's are awesome. Except mine, it was a POS that was abused early in life and never let that tragedy go. Also, Your X5 is likely faster than the Rivian, I think the tuned Q7 would've given you a run though. Rivian falls on it's face above about 60mph. It'll beat you there, but then you'll come around it like I threw an anchor out. The Q7 wouldn't leave as hard, but it pulled like a freight train well into triple digits. NOW....the R1S Quad loaner I drove in this morning will absolutely demolish the X5......until it hits the 80mph limiter. Only thing I've been in that hits this hard was a TTV8 powered Typhoon. It's just BRUTAL acceleration that doesn't let up.

I leased this time under a lot of the same premises you guys make. EV depreciation, good chances of tech changes in 3yrs, as well as a pre-agreed residual value. So, when (not if) I want to let it go in 3yrs, I know exactly where I stand. I also buried a crap ton of negative equity from the Q7 into the lease, essentially turning that liability into a 36mo 0% interest loan. Still going to pay for it, but at least I'm not paying interest on it. The hiccup I'm having is I wasn't able to buy enough miles up front, so I'm going to have to pay on the backend (which is a little more expensive). Ultimately though, I have a calculatable liability at the end. I don't have to play this "where can I get the best trade in" or "argue with a dealership about how much the trade is worth" type of crap to deal with. I can use a calculator, know what I have to pay, and then compare my options and move along. The lack of ambiguity cost me in cash out of pocket with the lease, but is saving mental cycles and reduces anxiety levels around that whole process.

NOW......If Rivian can't get these issues sorted on the truck, I'm considering pressing them for a replacement/trade out with some additional incentives. Several people online have pushed and been moved into second gen trucks with no cash out of pocket. It'll reset the lease, and all that mess, but it might be a suitable alternative. We'll see what shakes out.

 

[BlkGS]

Alternatively I think I found the sweet spot for buying and keeping cars. Getting exactly what I want. I custom ordered my truck exactly how I wanted it, coming up on 6 years and have zero plans to get rid of it within the next 4 years.

Tried that. I get bored. My X5 is literally my perfect spec. Would I prefer a full M? Maybe but not enough to care (I could put the Alpina tune on it for the power of I did). I just get bored, maybe that's because when I drive something a little more mundane I'm like "I could have done this in something more fun". Maybe it's because I have a sickness where I want more cars. Maybe it's a "grass is greener" thing.

Part of me thinks I just need something that's powerful, but not too crazy fast, with enough space for the family, and a manual, ideally with a "muscle car" feel over a luxury cruiser. I really think I need to check out an E39 M5 in person.

 

[2kwik4u]

Tried that. I get bored. My X5 is literally my perfect spec. Would I prefer a full M? Maybe but not enough to care (I could put the Alpina tune on it for the power of I did). I just get bored, maybe that's because when I drive something a little more mundane I'm like "I could have done this in something more fun". Maybe it's because I have a sickness where I want more cars. Maybe it's a "grass is greener" thing.

Part of me thinks I just need something that's powerful, but not too crazy fast, with enough space for the family, and a manual, ideally with a "muscle car" feel over a luxury cruiser. I really think I need to check out an E39 M5 in person.

I've been diagnosed with VADD - Vehicular Attention Deficit Disorder.

It runs rampant amongst most car guys.

 

[BlkGS]

@BlkGS TBSS's are awesome. Except mine, it was a POS that was abused early in life and never let that tragedy go. Also, Your X5 is likely faster than the Rivian, I think the tuned Q7 would've given you a run though. Rivian falls on it's face above about 60mph. It'll beat you there, but then you'll come around it like I threw an anchor out. The Q7 wouldn't leave as hard, but it pulled like a freight train well into triple digits. NOW....the R1S Quad loaner I drove in this morning will absolutely demolish the X5......until it hits the 80mph limiter. Only thing I've been in that hits this hard was a TTV8 powered Typhoon. It's just BRUTAL acceleration that doesn't let up.

I leased this time under a lot of the same premises you guys make. EV depreciation, good chances of tech changes in 3yrs, as well as a pre-agreed residual value. So, when (not if) I want to let it go in 3yrs, I know exactly where I stand. I also buried a crap ton of negative equity from the Q7 into the lease, essentially turning that liability into a 36mo 0% interest loan. Still going to pay for it, but at least I'm not paying interest on it. The hiccup I'm having is I wasn't able to buy enough miles up front, so I'm going to have to pay on the backend (which is a little more expensive). Ultimately though, I have a calculatable liability at the end. I don't have to play this "where can I get the best trade in" or "argue with a dealership about how much the trade is worth" type of crap to deal with. I can use a calculator, know what I have to pay, and then compare my options and move along. The lack of ambiguity cost me in cash out of pocket with the lease, but is saving mental cycles and reduces anxiety levels around that whole process.

NOW......If Rivian can't get these issues sorted on the truck, I'm considering pressing them for a replacement/trade out with some additional incentives. Several people online have pushed and been moved into second gen trucks with no cash out of pocket. It'll reset the lease, and all that mess, but it might be a suitable alternative. We'll see what shakes out.

I wish we could have co.pared dragy times between the X5 and Q7. The X5 is weird, because it's so smooth it doesn't feel like you're going that fast. It never feels violent like the TBSS does, even though it's really stupidly fast. Like sub 4 seconds to 60. And the ZF8 shifts are the most insane mix of fast and smooth ever, they're imperceptibly smooth, but also crazy fast.

BMW knows how to tune that ZF8 transmission insanely well. When I test drove the Durango hellcat the difference in transmission tuning was just immense, since they have identical transmissions.

 

[2kwik4u]

I wish we could have co.pared dragy times between the X5 and Q7. The X5 is weird, because it's so smooth it doesn't feel like you're going that fast. It never feels violent like the TBSS does, even though it's really stupidly fast. Like sub 4 seconds to 60. And the ZF8 shifts are the most insane mix of fast and smooth ever, they're imperceptibly smooth, but also crazy fast.

BMW knows how to tune that ZF8 transmission insanely well. When I test drove the Durango hellcat the difference in transmission tuning was just immense, since they have identical transmissions.

Same feeling with the tuned Q7. Same transmission, and a similar feeling about transmission tuning differences between Stellantis and Audi.

 

[BlkGS]

I've been diagnosed with VADD - Vehicular Attention Deficit Disorder.

It runs rampant amongst most car guys.

We really should form a support group.

"Hi, my name is Mike and I want all the cars"
"Hi Mike"
"Today is a milestone for me, I haven't shopped new cars for 48 hours, despite having buddies send me cool cars on Facebook marketplace"
*Everyone claps*

 

[Bluewater272]

I also buried a crap ton of negative equity from the Q7 into the lease, essentially turning that liability into a 36mo 0% interest loan. Still going to pay for it, but at least I'm not paying interest on it.

Rivian doesn't charge interest on their leases?

For me, I think the math on EVs changed recently. I bought my Model 3 new, because used prices were the same as new. Bottom fell out of that obviously, doesn't matter to me because I plan to run the Tesla not til the wheels fall off, but close enough. If the market looks like it does today, I'll just be buying my next one lightly used.