Deceitful Dealer Tactics

[Julian]

I don't consider lowballing or ridiculous high prices to be deceitful dealer tactics. It can be frustrating, and it is nice to find a dealer that doesn't mind skipping the whole song and dance, but a lot of that's on the consumer to research and negotiate. If a dealer thinks he can sell a boat for a ridiculous price and won't budge, move on. The market will either prove him right or wrong.

I agree. I'd call the dealer and make them what you think is a fair offer and see if they are interested. Tell them you don't want to drive over there if you aren't in the same ballpark.

 

[Ancient canoe]

One of the market conditions to consider if you are looking for a used 212x is with the big price jump in the 2017 models I imagine the used market is going to start going at a premium. That's great if you have boat to unload, not as great if you are looking for a great deal. That may be why the dealer has it priced higher.

 

[Scuba_ref]

Maybe it is just me, but listing all the standard equipment and some equipment that doesn't even exist in a Yamaha in the pricing seems a little deceitful to me.

 

[Redneck_4Play]

Maybe it is just me, but listing all the standard equipment and some equipment that doesn't even exist in a Yamaha in the pricing seems a little deceitful to me.

My view from the cheap seats...the dealer has priced it at the very high end of the price range and is using data not specific to Yamaha to justify the price. It could be an indication that the particular dealer has no knowlwdge of the product, hopes the buyer doesn't or both. Do your homework so you can speak intelligently, challenge the BS they are trying to shovel and then decide if this is someone you want to do business with.

 

[Matt Phillips]

I agree...inflating the price of the boat with equipment that's standard is the sign of someone who's either looking to jack the price up as much as possible, or someone who's not knowledgable about the product they are selling (likely both).

Like others have said, call them, State that there are several items listed in their pricing assessment that were standard when that boat was new and therefore they should already be baked into the base price of that model, as well as several items that aren't even on these boats. Doing this proves that you're knowledgable about this product and gives them an opportunity to correct their error or dig in. If they correct, fine. If they dig in, then that just proves that they are looking for an uninformed buyer and that's the sign to move away from that deal. My thought is if they're willing to lie about things like this, you know it was inherited by the infamous little ole lady from Pasadena...

 

[NeilinAZ]

Hello Forum,
My name is Neil with Boulder Boats Arizona. I am the associate who recently communicated with Mr. Griffith in regards to his inquiry about our 2014 Yamaha 212X for sale. I'd like to take a few moments to address the concerns of the forum members and Mr. Griffith as it relates the NADA and our pricing for this boat. First, I'd like to apologize on behalf of Boulder Boats if any information that I provided to Mr. Griffith thus far has been construed as deceitful, inaccurate or anything other than above board. Second, this might get a little long winded, sorry in advance.

Having purchased over a dozen boats for my own personal use over the last 20 years, I can understand and I appreciate the difficulty that we as boat buyers have when assessing what a fair value is for the boat of our choice. That being said, I'm very proud to be associated with a retailer and service center like Boulder Boats since we strive to provide the very best boat buying experience for both our local and long distance customers. Personally, I work very hard to maintain a level of transparency and customer service that is unparalleled in the marine industry.

Brian's inquiry centered around the NADA value of the boat, so as a matter of transparency, I provided him the report that is provided to me by our listing associates. The NADA that you see is a bit different from what is available to the general public, as this is the commercial version which dealers use to communicate value to lenders. Rarely does it get provided to clients, but if I am asked for it, I'll always provide it, since it's at my finger tips, in the boat file. I don't usually verify for accuracy, as we have a great group of support staff who work hard to ensure their accuracy.

Yes, it's true, we're not a Yamaha Jet Boat dealer, so there may have been some confusion as to what equipment the boat has or what is/was standard that could have been overlooked by our listing associate. But, the accuracy of it ultimately falls on me if I'm going to provide it to a prospective client. For that, I apologize to Mr. Griffith.

That being said, I am not as well versed in jet powered boats as some of my colleagues, so I'm not sure my checking for accuracy would have yielded any different results. In fact, when this boat was put into inventory, I took the opportunity to take the boat to the lake one morning to see what makes these boats so popular and valuable. My ownership experience is all inboard wakeboard boats, so this was a real eye opener. Needless to say, I see why they're so popular...it was a blast!

NADA is a guide that we sometimes use to assess pricing it relates to a lender providing a good financing option for a buyer. We feel that a more accurate representation of what we should list a preowned boat for is the current market climate for that make/model/etc, condition of the boat, history, and comparable boats on the market. But, sometimes, if we're not familiar with a particular model, we'll reach out to other industry contacts to assess our pricing. In fact, my Sales Manager went to college with a guy who was a Yamaha Factory Rep for several years. He consulted with the rep, who no longer works for Yamaha, but is running a successful dealership and marina, and advised us that we were spot on with the pricing. At the time of us acquiring this boat and listing it, other 212X Yamaha's were priced from 44K-49K, nationwide. We evaluate our pricing as market conditions change, but with the 2012 and 2013's that are available on Boat Trader, we seem to be right in line....especially when 2017's are listing right now online for $57-$58K.

I appreciate the opportunity, guys and gals and I hope that this post can help clear up any confusion.

Catch ya on the lake!

 

[jawsf16]

@NeilinAZ
I appreciate you posting up the other side of the coin. I think the pricing is on the high side but completely understand your thoughts. Just wanted to say welcome and thanks for commenting which took some guts. Well crafted post too

@Brian Griffith
Remember NaDa is a start and usually these boats sell for above the listed value. The challenge as stated is if a dealer isn't familiar with Yamaha then a lot of things end up being pseudo options. Do the homework in the market pricing and be prepared to bring that info with an offer and see what happens. If it works out great, if not no big deal, you can find a deal somewhere.

Mostly I just wanted to say hi and that my no kidding real world, non internet, non fighter pilot name is Bryan Griffith! Small world huh? Maybe we are long lost relatives.... anyway welcome and good luck with the search.

 

[robert843]

@NeilinAZ welcome we always love dealers to check in hopefully you will hang around its a great forum. All posts are great with good info so far. The dealer is running a business and has to keep the lights on. I don't feel a dealer is being deceitful by over pricing a boat sure there are some things on the NADA value that don't add up but really they don't need to justify there price on anything either someone is will to pay their price or they are not. I agree with Neil's post boat shopping sucks lol as I find my self in the process of doing it again. All any of can do as buyer is decide exactly which boat we want first determine a price in our head we think we show pay for that boat and keep shopping till we find it. I have how ever noticed the used boat market seems to have taken a jump this year from past years I see a lot if used boats for sale this year that are priced higher then the same year and model were selling for last year and this is from dealers and individuals. This prompted me to probably buy new as I don't see the value in going used right now.

 

[ACRDSPORT14]

While I'm glad he "the salesman" responded, but I wonder how he found this thread.

 

[NeilinAZ]

While I'm glad he "the salesman" responded, but I wonder how he found this thread.

Good question, and a point that I forgot to address. The former Yamaha Rep I referenced in my post alerted us to Boulder Boats being mentioned in the thread.

Thanks for the warm welcome, I'll be sticking around to learn about jet boats as we recently took delivery of our first batch of Chaparral Vortex boats.

 

[Julian]

@NeilinAZ Thanks for joining and welcome to the forum! We love it when people dive right in and set things straight. Can you tell us what has been added to the base boat? I think the original poster is simply struggling with the fact that the MSRP is $48,499 and all the items listed (except for a few, like the cover) are included in that MSRP (like the trailer, ballast system etc). So he's trying to understand your price for a Very Low hour 2014....it is hard to tell what might have been added based on the information provided. For example....does it have Perfect Pass added? If it does have a pile of after market add ons, that would help him understand the asking price. Your challenge is how on earth do you keep up with all the different boats and makers to know what is stock MSRP and what isn't! I don't envy that job!

 

[Ancient canoe]

The dealer is too high (assuming it's a stock boat) and their pricing guide doesn't really account for Yamaha (everything stock) very well so their justification for the pricing looks ridiculous. But on the flip side NADA pricing look really low. Average retail 35,900 would be a lot better than an average deal imo. I would expect a lot more than 35,900 for a lightly used 2014 212x considering Yamaha's pricing increases on newer models for not much better of a boat.

 

[veedubtek]

Aren't the '17's significantly better?

At 48 new, with many sold at 46, and 3 years old, I wouldn't bat an eye at the thing until it was well south of 40.

 

[Ancient canoe]

I meant better value. Head to head the newer models are certainly nicer boats, but not necessarily enough to justify their price tag. There aren't 10k worth of additions to the new 212x imo. If you had a used 2014-2016 212x and put an additional 6-8k in upgrades to it you are probably sitting with a lot better watersport platform than a new 212x gives you stock.

Maybe I am misguided on the pricing, but you also have to factor in that for the person looking at a used 212x probably can't afford a new one with the huge price jump, so there is going to be more demand in the used market.

 

[NeilinAZ]

I appreciate you posting up the other side of the coin. I think the pricing is on the high side but completely understand your thoughts. Just wanted to say welcome and thanks for commenting which took some guts. Well crafted post too

Thanks. I know it can be like walking in front of a firing squad for a dealer to post on a boating forum. But, like a lot of us in the boating industry, I'm just a guy who decided after 20 years of the 9-5 to take the leap and chase my passion for boating and share it with others, so, I can take the heat, because I'm no different then you guys who love the lake with my family.

In regards to what additional equipment the boat has to keep such a high resale from original MSRP, I can't say for sure. But, what I do know is that based on comps that are out in the marketplace right now, we're competitive with the boat pricing. http://www.boattrader.com/browse/make/yamaha/212x/Page-5/ViewType-photo/SortBy-year.desc/PerPage-20

In hindsight, NADA wasn't the basis for the pricing justification, but since the OP centered his inquiry to me on NADA, I responded in kind.

On the flip side, if what seems to be the consensus here, that the boat should be listed for average retail (35.9K) because everything is included, then that would mean that I would have given some poor soul used trade in (28.2K) on a boat that he paid $52.4K (MSRP plus tax, NOT incl Freight and Prep) for just 2 years and 66 hours of use. This stance also assumes a significant profit for the dealer ($7K), which is a stretch to say the least.

It's hard for me to put a price on my time on the lake, but $363 per hour of use is pretty hard to swallow for the average joe that works hard and just wants to enjoy the lake life with his family.

 

[jpass]

I think the asking price ($44K) is high considering the only 2 2014 212Xs I could find are both in the$38-39K range.

 

[Matt Phillips]

Welcome to the forum and thanks for sharing the other side of the issue with us!

To me, the price sounds high. However, if someone is willing to pay it, then it's not...the price for that boat is whatever is negotiated on it.

One thing about the Yamaha's that does drive prices up on used is the fact that the really only option on them is color & a galvanized trailer. If you want a different option, then it's a different boat for you. The other thing that drives up prices is Yamaha sells just about every boat they build...so there's not much negotiation on the new side. If you don't want it for xxx price, then someone else will take it gladly.

Again, welcome and thanks for sharing your thoughts.

 

[FloJet]

The problem I see here is you can get a 2016 AR 240 for around $45k right now so that bought is way over price. No ifs or what's about it. Close this thread please. Case Closed lol.

 

[Ancient canoe]

The problem I see here is you can get a 2016 AR 240 for around $45k right now so that bought is way over price. No ifs or what's about it. Close this thread please. Case Closed lol.

Where? Are you selling yours for 45k?

 

[Brian Griffith]

Thanks. I know it can be like walking in front of a firing squad for a dealer to post on a boating forum. But, like a lot of us in the boating industry, I'm just a guy who decided after 20 years of the 9-5 to take the leap and chase my passion for boating and share it with others, so, I can take the heat, because I'm no different then you guys who love the lake with my family.

In regards to what additional equipment the boat has to keep such a high resale from original MSRP, I can't say for sure. But, what I do know is that based on comps that are out in the marketplace right now, we're competitive with the boat pricing. http://www.boattrader.com/browse/make/yamaha/212x/Page-5/ViewType-photo/SortBy-year.desc/PerPage-20

In hindsight, NADA wasn't the basis for the pricing justification, but since the OP centered his inquiry to me on NADA, I responded in kind.

On the flip side, if what seems to be the consensus here, that the boat should be listed for average retail (35.9K) because everything is included, then that would mean that I would have given some poor soul used trade in (28.2K) on a boat that he paid $52.4K (MSRP plus tax, NOT incl Freight and Prep) for just 2 years and 66 hours of use. This stance also assumes a significant profit for the dealer ($7K), which is a stretch to say the least.

It's hard for me to put a price on my time on the lake, but $363 per hour of use is pretty hard to swallow for the average joe that works hard and just wants to enjoy the lake life with his family.

I love the internet.... Neil I had considered sending you a link to this post, but look who pops up. Crazy how that works. Anyway, glad your here. I thoroughly read your first post too and appreciate your explanation. I have to ask though how you come up with 52.4 as the amount the first owner paid for the boat. Do you have paperwork form the original dealer showing that he/she paid 4k over MSRP? I was under the impression that with the Yamaha boats you don't get a discount, but you also should not expect to pay more than MSRP, save some freight and prep charges and of course tax.

Assuming the boat is worth 48 new, I think most of this forum agrees with me that 3k less than new is not a reasonable price for a three year old boat. I also understand as many have said that if I don't like the price I should just move on. That's probably good advice and I will likely do that.

I will say that I pretty much wrote off working with you on this boat or any other from your dealership after your original e-mail reply, however your willingness to go the extra mile on here speaks loudly and I really appreciate it so if there is a deal to be made on this boat or another I welcome it. Its interesting to note that you have a 2012 242 limited on your website that is listed for almost exactly what NADA says the average retail value is. Maybe I need to sign the paperwork on that one before your sales manager becomes the newest member of this forum....