Engine won’t start when hot

[Yamijunkjones]

Yes this is what I was leaning towards also, in most cases if you unplug a 3 wire 5v sensor the ecm will give said sensor a default value as a fail safe. I’ve gone through and unplugged each sensor 1 by 1 to see if I get a different result with no avail. I’ve also confirmed sensor values with engine cold and with engine up to temp not noticing any differences. Even checked resistance and we are within spec with service manual. I’ve sent my run files to Yamaha and they’ve had there geeks looking em over with no resolution. Currently have a Yamaha rep here with me, he flew out from Georgia and were playing the parts swapping game now. So I’ll let everyone know what we find.

 

[FLJetBoater]

Yes this is what I was leaning towards also, in most cases if you unplug a 3 wire 5v sensor the ecm will give said sensor a default value as a fail safe. I’ve gone through and unplugged each sensor 1 by 1 to see if I get a different result with no avail. I’ve also confirmed sensor values with engine cold and with engine up to temp not noticing any differences. Even checked resistance and we are within spec with service manual. I’ve sent my run files to Yamaha and they’ve had there geeks looking em over with no resolution. Currently have a Yamaha rep here with me, he flew out from Georgia and were playing the parts swapping game now. So I’ll let everyone know what we find.

Eager to hear your results!

 

[anmut]

https://flic.kr/p/2oFKSGh

That's different than my "heat soak" issue - mine doesn't fire up and die, it just cranks. If I pause after the third crank for 30 seconds, it'll then start up.

 

[Ian watson]

I began having problems last September. Now my 2017 Sx210 port engine will start cold but once I run it for maybe 3 mins and then stop it won’t start or it will start and run rough. It will also give an engine code of YDIS 114 and OBDS 52 1302 and will not go above 1000 rpm. I’ve noticed sometimes when the engine won’t start it will not report run hours on the connext screen for the port engine. It will turn over but won’t start. The other engine is fine. I changed plugs and the battery is fine as the other motor starts. I’ve played with the safety switches in the back. Frustrating.

 

[Yamijunkjones]

I began having problems last September. Now my 2017 Sx210 port engine will start cold but once I run it for maybe 3 mins and then stop it won’t start or it will start and run rough. It will also give an engine code of YDIS 114 and OBDS 52 1302 and will not go above 1000 rpm. I’ve noticed sometimes when the engine won’t start it will not report run hours on the connext screen for the port engine. It will turn over but won’t start. The other engine is fine. I changed plugs and the battery is fine as the other motor starts. I’ve played with the safety switches in the back. Frustrating.

this is tr1 engines? Quick stop at your local dealer and pull those codes, this should be an obvious one to track down!

 

[Yamijunkjones]

Alright quick update boys
to recap:
Yamaha tech by trade, have this boat that’s making me spin in circles
So far no support or answers from Yamaha “tech support” they all telling me the same thing such as ; fuel quality, valve adjustment, timing off, so on
Fast forward after having a 100 hours of solid diagnostics on this thing I finally throw in towel and tell them to send someone from corporate to check my work and see if we can come up with solution
So for the past 3 days I worked side by side with someone from Yamaha.
Here’s what he found: nothing ( I think?)
We can duplicate the problem. We understand that the etv is open slightly more than normal. Causing a possible “lean” restart
So only thing I could find to hold etv open was the ecm, I verified voltages at my aps 1 & 2 were within spec, I plugged in new ecm and still my etv was holding that 7%
At this point I had to run to a service call and stepped out for a minute to service a boat on the water while the Yamaha rep took apart the etv. Upon my return the rep told me he “re learned the etv” when I asked him to explain he said with a series of powering on and off cycles. this to me is blowing smoke bullshit. I’ve shit that battery switch off a 100 times, if that thing was going to re learn it would of smarten up by now.
all I know is the etv now sits at 4% with the new ecm after I left Yamaha alone for an hour. I plug in the old ecm and etv goes back to 7%. I tell Yamaha okay let’s get in the boat and take it to water for beat run with new ecm and “re learned etv” . I cannot replicate the hot restart. Yamaha throws me a branded hat and coffee mug and hops in his car and leaves.

I hate this answer and am still looking for a “smoking gun” I’m taking the boat out for a good hot run tomorrow, going to monitor my values and see if problem returns

 

[Yamijunkjones]

The thing I hate most about this answer is the etv does not have a module or can bus to “relearn”, it’s simply a dc motor that the ecm rapidly reverses the polarity on to set the angle (basically). Any other input or someone who can explain to me the electrical theory on this would be greatly appreciated

 

[tdonoughue]

So... does the ECM (as seen through the diag tool) say the ETV is at 4%/7%? Or is that a measured thing? Or does the diag tool even tell you that?

The DC motor should be a step motor, right? So the ECM (if it is a 1% step) will zap it 4 times for 4% (I know, the motors are in degrees and not %, but work with me here)?

 

[Yamijunkjones]

So... does the ECM (as seen through the diag tool) say the ETV is at 4%/7%? Or is that a measured thing? Or does the diag tool even tell you that?

The DC motor should be a step motor, right? So the ECM (if it is a 1% step) will zap it 4 times for 4% (I know, the motors are in degrees and not %, but work with me here)?

correct, ydis show me the angle in degrees not percentage, (cant find the degree symbol on keyboard lol) from my understanding the ecm controls this by providing a ground on either side of the motor. Rapidly reversing the polarity is what I’m told from Yamaha. I don’t think it’s how your describing on this model from what I’ve been taught

 

[tdonoughue]

Nice little animation here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepper_motor

Mechanism not really important. Important would be that the ECM thinks it is at 4 deg rather than 7 deg. It is not the ETV that learned anything. The ECM was changed somehow--it is setting it at 4...

 

[Yamijunkjones]

Thanks for the animation, love stuff drawn out like that to have a better understanding. Yes correct for some reason the new ecm showed me the etv at 7 degrees initially, then after “relearning” ( or a bunch of power cycles) were magically back to the 4 degree set point and unable to replicate the hot restart issue. If I put the old Ecm back in the etv goes back to to 7.

 

[tdonoughue]

Yeah. But that must be an ECM issue. The ECM is setting the ETV, not reading it. So the question is what did he do to reset the ECM as to the ETV setting. He must have flashed it or hard reset it. They wouldn't make it so you can just tweak settings...

Never can leave those Y guys alone. Gets you every time... <sigh>

 

[motomark73]

It strikes me that the corporate guy did something different than you did to the ecm, whether unknowingly or not. Maybe he refreshed firmware or something or he possibly ran a "factory only" YDIS analysis or check that somehow reset the ecm in a way none of the tools you have in YDIS could?

Well if your ETV stays stabilized at the 4% let us know, could be the issue several of us are fighting.

Thank you for sharing all your knowledge with the forum!

 

[Yamijunkjones]

Maybe, I think it’s more of a coincidence, then it was a solution. However I’ve seen ecm on these motors hold an injector open. So I guess it wouldn’t be obscene to see one hold an etv “open” just strange the new ecm also was holding it at 7% for some time then it stabilized at 4. Plug the old ecm in and it’s back to 7. I will continue to post and let you know if the problem comes back. I should note I tried a different etv out of a different unit and was getting same result.

 

[Adrian @ JB Solutions]

My 195 once had trouble starting after a WOT run and immediate shut off. Put a bag of ice on the intake and it started right up in 5 minutes.

 

[suke]

That's different than my "heat soak" issue - mine doesn't fire up and die, it just cranks. If I pause after the third crank for 30 seconds, it'll then start up.

So I've had the same problem as you ever since I've gotten my boat. This season it hasn't popped up once! So frustrating. Only thing I've done differently is just let it idle while we switch riders for surfing. Partly cause we have more ballast /lead and when it's fully loaded it's hard to start the motor on the surf side. So maybe that has enough time to cool the motors between riders? When coming to a stop I bump it to the highest no wake mode in idle and then let it run for 10-15 seconds and then immediately turn it off. Hoping it's pushing more fuel into the fuel line so it has enough in there to keep cool enough to restart. Not sure if that's the difference orrrrrr I've been lucky.

 

[anmut]

So I've had the same problem as you ever since I've gotten my boat. This season it hasn't popped up once! So frustrating. Only thing I've done differently is just let it idle while we switch riders for surfing. Partly cause we have more ballast /lead and when it's fully loaded it's hard to start the motor on the surf side. So maybe that has enough time to cool the motors between riders? When coming to a stop I bump it to the highest no wake mode in idle and then let it run for 10-15 seconds and then immediately turn it off. Hoping it's pushing more fuel into the fuel line so it has enough in there to keep cool enough to restart. Not sure if that's the difference orrrrrr I've been lucky.

Yep, only happened to me once this year so far and that was after a full boat load run for about three miles at 6500 rpm, then got to the docks and didn't idle as long as I normally would have before killing the motors. Boat sat for 20min until we were loaded again and bang, STBD engine needed a few cranks to get it running. As per usual, it sounds like it's stumbling over itself and on the third crank it'll stumble and fire up. No issues the rest of the day.

 

[Jet Boat Brant]

I have a 2020 242xe and am experiencing this exact issue on the stbd engine. 173hrs on the boat and it just started happening this year. Starts fine at the beginning of the day. If we cruise somewhere and anchor off for 3-4 hrs with the key on and stereo playing it won't start. Cranks fine and fast and free, not a starter issue. Not a voltage issue. The port motor fires right up every time. I believe it is a fueling issue. I noticed this year that intermittently it would crank a little longer to start. So I changed the plugs, that helped zero. Eventually it got to where it will crank and not start. This is after being on anchor for hours without the boat running. After multiple attempts of cranking I can eventually get it to start. If you kill it right after it starts it'll start right back up over and over.

After it starts it runs normally. Perfect RPM's, has never ever stalled out or died on its own. It's just trying to start it. Very frustrating for sure.

Keeping this thread alive hoping someone finds a solution. I'm not going to take it to the dealer. It will just be more of the same as everyone else has said.

 

[FSH 210 Sport]

I have a 2020 242xe and am experiencing this exact issue on the stbd engine. 173hrs on the boat and it just started happening this year. Starts fine at the beginning of the day. If we cruise somewhere and anchor off for 3-4 hrs with the key on and stereo playing it won't start. Cranks fine and fast and free, not a starter issue. Not a voltage issue. The port motor fires right up every time. I believe it is a fueling issue. I noticed this year that intermittently it would crank a little longer to start. So I changed the plugs, that helped zero. Eventually it got to where it will crank and not start. This is after being on anchor for hours without the boat running. After multiple attempts of cranking I can eventually get it to start. If you kill it right after it starts it'll start right back up over and over.

After it starts it runs normally. Perfect RPM's, has never ever stalled out or died on its own. It's just trying to start it. Very frustrating for sure.

Keeping this thread alive hoping someone finds a solution. I'm not going to take it to the dealer. It will just be more of the same as everyone else has said.

Don’t know if you know or not but there is another thread ( Hard to start) dealing with this, and the solution has been to run the engines in neutral for 10 to 15 seconds using no wake mode at level three then return to idle to help remove excess water from the water locks. Member @MrBubbaGump Gump was having a lot of these issues and that seems to have solved the hard start for him as well as member @anmut

The other thing that could be happening to your boat is the pick up coil is going bad on the ignition. Check this coil with an Ohm meter to make sure this pick up coil is within spec. Several members solved their hard start issues this way.

Do you have a Scarab as well? Your signature shows you having a Scarab.

 

[Jet Boat Brant]

Don’t know if you know or not but there is another thread ( Hard to start) dealing with this, and the solution has been to run the engines in neutral for 10 to 15 seconds using no wake mode at level three then return to idle to help remove excess water from the water locks. Member @MrBubbaGump Gump was having a lot of these issues and that seems to have solved the hard start for him as well as member @anmut

The other thing that could be happening to your boat is the pick up coil is going bad on the ignition. Check this coil with an Ohm meter to make sure this pick up coil is within spec. Several members solved their hard start issues this way.

Do you have a Scarab as well? Your signature shows you having a Scarab.

Had a Scarab. Sold it and have had the 242x for 3 years. I usually cruise into the no wake zone in no wake mode where we tie off or anchor out and that never makes a difference. The boat is firing. It will try to start, but sputter and fail. Sometimes you have to crank it numerous times before it will finally keep running. This is definitely temperature related. I don't see how the pickup coil could be out of spec when it starts first crank every time cold, and also every time hot after it finally starts.