Steer by Wire?

[ScramJet]

Greetings,

Having recently purchased a second home in the Naples area, Joanne and I are new to SW Florida (and to the JetBoaters.net forum): Wow, what a great source of information!

I'm planning to purchase a new jet boat in the next nine to 12 months - hopefully a Yamaha 242 Limited S E-Series. I've been reading extensively over the past few weeks, but cannot find anything regarding an interest I have in the possibility of joystick-controlled Jet Boats.

Stern-drives have them (Axius, etc.), Outboards have them (Optimus 360, etc.), I/Os have them; Pod Drives have them; Inboards have them, ... But except for much larger / commercial versions - Jet Boats seem to have been left out.

My understanding (limited, I admit) would be that to make this at all technically feasible on recreational Jet Boats, both throttle-by-wire and steer-by-wire (with individually-articulated thrusters) - would be required. And that's just for openers. Then there would be the electronics, perhaps also hydraulics, other chip-based components, and individual calibration for particular models - to computer-control (and, desirably, GPS-control) a joystick system.

The latest E-Series boats have throttle-by-wire. But I've seen nothing about any plans Yamaha (or anyone else) may have about adding steer-by-wire.

Do any members have insight or opinions on this?

One obvious thought crosses my mind: the up-charge (likely exceeding $10+K for a truly competent system) is just too large a fraction of the cost of the boat itself to interest any prospective vendors - so it's "not gonna' happen." At least anytime soon.

Still, as the cost of these systems comes down, and as the demographic for ownership of these boats evolves (to include perhaps 'more mature' [gulp] and less-experienced owners) - interest in such joystick-controlled docking systems is likely to grow.

I did actually search the forum on this topic, but could find nothing - so any thoughts much appreciated.

Thanks!

 

[seadude]

I agree this is an intriguing concept, especially with Yamaha seeming to have the all of the components already for their outboards. However, jet boats occupy the lower price end of the boat market. As you noted, adding the electric drive-by-wire individual steering and controllers would add many thousands and you'd still have a lower-end boat overall quality wise. Also these jet drives are not that effective in reverse so the response to the joystick would not be as positive as props. Finally, these are light, maneuverable boats and with practice you learn how they react and can dock them pretty effectively and also just reach out and push them off the dock when necessary!

By the way, be aware you shouldn't leave these boats in salt water - if that's your plan you'd be better served with a boat with those joystick operated outboards that can be tilted out of the water when you're not using it.

 

[elcue]

Check out hinckley jetstick 2...really impressive and done on jetdrives. You are also talking about a boat 10 times the cost of a Yamaha though.

 

[Julian]

I think part of the reason no one has done this on a jet is because the total distance from full port to full starboard is significantly less than most boats. It sure would be cool if you could control each gate independently - including trim up and down!

 

[Jgorm]

If probably pass even if it was free. Boats don't need more electronics and actuators.

 

[Neutron]

I can't see how it would be possible for a reasonable price.
Now making steering and reverse gates electronic couldn't make these boats turn and move like any other current joystick boat.
No way any factory setup would work. These boats are so slow to respond from the factory when docking

 

[swatski]

Greetings,

Having recently purchased a second home in the Naples area, Joanne and I are new to SW Florida (and to the JetBoaters.net forum): Wow, what a great source of information!

I'm planning to purchase a new jet boat in the next nine to 12 months - hopefully a Yamaha 242 Limited S E-Series. I've been reading extensively over the past few weeks, but cannot find anything regarding an interest I have in the possibility of joystick-controlled Jet Boats.

Stern-drives have them (Axius, etc.), Outboards have them (Optimus 360, etc.), I/Os have them; Pod Drives have them; Inboards have them, ... But except for much larger / commercial versions - Jet Boats seem to have been left out.

My understanding (limited, I admit) would be that to make this at all technically feasible on recreational Jet Boats, both throttle-by-wire and steer-by-wire (with individually-articulated thrusters) - would be required. And that's just for openers. Then there would be the electronics, perhaps also hydraulics, other chip-based components, and individual calibration for particular models - to computer-control (and, desirably, GPS-control) a joystick system.

The latest E-Series boats have throttle-by-wire. But I've seen nothing about any plans Yamaha (or anyone else) may have about adding steer-by-wire.

Do any members have insight or opinions on this?

One obvious thought crosses my mind: the up-charge (likely exceeding $10+K for a truly competent system) is just too large a fraction of the cost of the boat itself to interest any prospective vendors - so it's "not gonna' happen." At least anytime soon.

Still, as the cost of these systems comes down, and as the demographic for ownership of these boats evolves (to include perhaps 'more mature' [gulp] and less-experienced owners) - interest in such joystick-controlled docking systems is likely to grow.

I did actually search the forum on this topic, but could find nothing - so any thoughts much appreciated.

Thanks!

Oh you are so right.
Unfortunately these boats are kind of cheap and Yamaha doesn't seem to give a dam. They don't even use their their own RIDE technology from skis... Or... simple diverters. Nothing.
So we here, like a good bunch of knuckleheads, argue about various fin attachments to the steering nozzles, until we're blue in the face.
Yeah, seriously.

Welcome to the community!

--

 

[Gym]

I'm sure as soon as @Mainah completes his work on the wireless remote porta potty he could whip up wireless steering in no time. And while you're at it could you get rid of those nasty shifter cables also?

I'm afraid were in the wrong price point for that technology. Besides, aren't you worried the Russians would hack into your boat's control systems?

 

[the MfM]

If someone could come up with a way to adapt one engine for bow and stern thrusters when needed you’d get pretty close to joystick control for a fraction of the price.

 

[Mainah]

I'm sure as soon as @Mainah completes his work on the wireless remote porta potty he could whip up wireless steering in no time. And while you're at it could you get rid of those nasty shifter cables also?

I'm afraid were in the wrong price point for that technology. Besides, aren't you worried the Russians would hack into your boat's control systems?

Ha. In all seriousness add reversible bow thruster and auto pilot steering module to an e series and joystick steering would be possible.

 

[Mainah]

If someone could come up with a way to adapt one engine for bow and stern thrusters when needed you’d get pretty close to joystick control for a fraction of the price.

View attachment 76589

Interesting. I have 5 stainless electric ball valves that I am hooking up to a manifold with a blower right now for the boat lift I am refurbishing. Will all run off an rf remote. Fairly cheap too.

 

[ScramJet]

I agree this is an intriguing concept, especially with Yamaha seeming to have the all of the components already for their outboards. However, jet boats occupy the lower price end of the boat market. As you noted, adding the electric drive-by-wire individual steering and controllers would add many thousands and you'd still have a lower-end boat overall quality wise. Also these jet drives are not that effective in reverse so the response to the joystick would not be as positive as props. Finally, these are light, maneuverable boats and with practice you learn how they react and can dock them pretty effectively and also just reach out and push them off the dock when necessary!

By the way, be aware you shouldn't leave these boats in salt water - if that's your plan you'd be better served with a boat with those joystick operated outboards that can be tilted out of the water when you're not using it.

Those are all excellent points.

Exactly right on: "Yamaha seeming to have the all of the components already for their outboards." So what about us jet boaters?

I guess we could predict that cost of the componentry for steer-by-wire will continue to come down and finally eliminate all the cables. Maybe Yamaha is working on it but it's just "down on the list" of things to put on the jet boats? After all Yamaha did finally introduce throttle-by-wire in these boats. It sometimes does seem the jet boats are a neglected stepchild when it comes to introducing Yamaha technology already available on its other marine offerings. (Thinking of Swatski's point about Yamaha's RIDE technology for Waverunners - as just another example.)

Regarding the jet drives not being as effective in reverse: true enough. I'm wondering though, given an intelligent joystick system, could we imagine (assuming one drive is running in forward and one in reverse) that RPMs / thrust on the one in reverse could be bumped up to somewhat to compensate for the lower reverse efficiency vs. the drive running in forward?

>> Finally, these are light, maneuverable boats and with practice you learn how they react and can dock them pretty effectively.

I'm sure you're right on that. Guess I'm just imagining trying to dock in a tight situation between two boats with gusty winds and tide / rip current mixed in...

>> By the way, be aware you shouldn't leave these boats in salt water...

Definitely tuned into that. I'm ultimately planning to join the "Tarpon Club" on Isles of Capri just North of Marco (http://TarponClubMarina.com/) - which has dry / inside storage whenever you're not on the water. So hopefully this won't be a concern most of the time (except when going up the Gulf coast to visit friends or 'around the horn' to visit other friends on the Atlantic side). The TC even flushes out your engines as part of its comprehensive services - though being pretty OCD I'm not sure I will trust them to do this properly...

Thanks again for the inputs.

 

[ScramJet]

Check out hinckley jetstick 2...really impressive and done on jetdrives. You are also talking about a boat 10 times the cost of a Yamaha though.

I would love to! Even though Joanne and I recently bought a place in FL, and plan to move there permanently over the next four or five years, right now we're going back and forth from our home in North Central NJ. I've often thought I would like to drive up to the Bar Harbor, ME area and see those boats; they're amazing: like a work of art and priced accordingly. But now back to the real world...

 

[ScramJet]

I think part of the reason no one has done this on a jet is because the total distance from full port to full starboard is significantly less than most boats. It sure would be cool if you could control each gate independently - including trim up and down!

>> ... total distance from full port to full starboard is significantly less than most boats.

Great point. For sure, the "physics" of the situation is against us here: we have drives that are fairly close together and positioned far aft - giving 'lever arms' that are not favorable compared to more forward-mounted and more widely-spaced thrust points. Still... (thinking of Yamaha twin outboards [or even triples / quads] controlled by an Optimus 360): how far apart on the transom would two of these be? Is it really much different?

Even though the spacing of thrust points on a jet boat is not the best for this purpose, I'm thinking that, with the right electronic controls (including independently variable throttles - in addition to independent control over thrust direction [forward / reverse] and position angle / azimuth), it could still be done.

A bit OT, but docking control wouldn't be the only advantage to having a joystick-controlled system. The latest versions of these (e.g., 'Skyhook' [for Axius]) and Sky Anchor [name?] have GPS-aware sensors that let you sit in a certain place within a few yards, with a selectable heading - while you fish or wait for a bridge / lock to open, or even while the kids are swimming nearby so you don't drift too far away (and don't have to set an anchor). Of course, you need to remain close to take over if necessary, but having that kind of automated control would definitely be attractive to many...

 

[ScramJet]

Oh you are so right.
Unfortunately these boats are kind of cheap and Yamaha doesn't seem to give a dam. They don't even use their their own RIDE technology from skis... Or... simple diverters. Nothing.
So we here, like a good bunch of knuckleheads, argue about various fin attachments to the steering nozzles, until we're blue in the face.
Yeah, seriously.

Welcome to the community!

--

Thanks! - looks like a great group.

 

[Beachbummer]

Steering Cables are cheap and simple. As I look at the complexity of electric control, and the little benefit it would bring in our case vs its cost, I don't see it as a big priority. Given the option, I prefer the simplicity and durability of the cable.

On outboards the weight is much greater, so there are some benefits, but I don't see them in our case.

 

[ScramJet]

I'm sure as soon as @Mainah completes his work on the wireless remote porta potty he could whip up wireless steering in no time. And while you're at it could you get rid of those nasty shifter cables also?

I'm afraid were in the wrong price point for that technology. Besides, aren't you worried the Russians would hack into your boat's control systems?

>> wrong price point...

You're probably right for now, but in the not-too-distant future? Not so sure...

>> Russians would hack into your boat's control systems...

Hoo-boy: yet another thing to worry about!

 

[Julian]

have GPS-aware sensors that let you sit in a certain place within a few yards, with a selectable heading - while you fish or wait for a bridge / lock to open, or even while the kids are swimming nearby so you don't drift too far away

This would be a MASSIVE advantage of this sort of system! Those that buy for fishing struggle with the fact that these boats require constant input to track a straight line, and are prone to drivers over correcting and going serpentine all the time. A system that held a course automatically would eliminate that complaint entirely! Since the weight/force required isn't much, I would think the servo side of this wouldn't require major motors. The real challenge would be in the software that would handle the turning lag and not turn you into a computerized serpentine driver! LOL

 

[ScramJet]

If someone could come up with a way to adapt one engine for bow and stern thrusters when needed you’d get pretty close to joystick control for a fraction of the price.

View attachment 76589

What a great idea. I've thought about bow / stern thrusters (e.g., see https://sideshift.com/) - well mainly a bow thruster - but didn't necessarily like the aesthetics of something hanging off externally. Plus, for these electric versions, you can't run them very long at a time. And they're not exactly cheap, either.

For what you're suggesting, cutting through the hull would of course be necessary for something internal. I'd hate to do that if it could be avoided, but I guess with proper sealing...

At the end of the day, though, you'd still have yet another thing to be thinking about in maneuvering the boat - if the thrusters weren't actually integrated into a fully automated control system. For that it's hard to beat the intuitive simplicity of a joystick setup (understanding that there are all kinds of complex calculations going on in real time 'behind the curtains').

 

[ScramJet]

Ha. In all seriousness add reversible bow thruster and auto pilot steering module to an e series and joystick steering would be possible.

We're waiting for the wheels to start turning!