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Steering to Right vs Steering to the left

Jackew

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Steering my 2013 AR240 vs my 242LS 2015 - I've noticed that while steering to the left the turning radius is about the same. But on my 2015 the turns to my right seem wider.

Has anyone else noticed the difference in turning radius from left to right?
 

Julian

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I've always thought my boat turns left better than right.....not sure if it has something to do with pump intake and rotation....or its just because the driver is on the right side and its just a perception issue....
 

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I've always thought my boat turns left better than right.....not sure if it has something to do with pump intake and rotation....or its just because the driver is on the right side and its just a perception issue....
Julian, this except from the GroupK site might hint at your answer:

About Pump Loading
All technicians that build high performance PWCs quickly learn a few fundamental rules about PWC pump function. As you engage a jet-pump driven watercraft in to a high-speed (power-on) left hand turn, the engine/pump gets very heavily loaded, and engine rpms are usually “pulled down”. However, making a right hand turn at exactly the same speed results in no rpm loss at all … and often results in an rpm increase, often accompanied by mild cavitation.
The reason for this phenomenon is that the entry angle of water coming in towards the impeller has a big effect on how well the pump get “loaded”. In left hand turns, the water comes toward the prop at an angle that very effectively “loads” the pump with water, and allows for very minimal “cavitation”. A hard right hand turn has exactly the opposite effect because the water is coming in toward the prop in a way that is very “unfriendly” to pump loading. Anyone who has driven a single engine Exciter 135 will experience this phenomenon in a big way. Using aftermarket impellers with a better blade/hub design can greatly reduce the cavitation experienced under all conditions …including in right hand turns. But even the best designed prop cannot eliminate right-turn cavitation altogether.
Twin Engine Pump Loading
The phenomenon described above affects the twin motor jet boats in an entirely different way. The water intake surfaces on the bottom of twin motor hulls are on angled surfaces on each side of the hull. This “angled water entry” gives an effective entry angle that mimics the pump loading of turning the boat. This means that (while driving in a straight line) the drivers side pump (starboard) is receiving water at an angle that mimics a left hand turn (thus loading the engine rpms down). At the same time, the passenger side (port) impeller is receiving water at an angle that mimics a right hand turn (resulting in higher rpms and a closer cavitation threshold). This is why the left (port) motors of most twin-engine Yamaha jet-boats tend to run higher rpms than the right (starboard) engines.
Getting past the whole theoretical aspect, the functional result is what’s important.. Because of the phenomenon described above, the right side pump is generating more actual thrust than the left pump at any given rpm. This causes the steering wheel to constantly be “tugging” toward a left hand turn, and at the same time causes the left side engine to rev higher than the right engine in order to generate the same thrust.
After weeks of testing, we eventually resolved all these problems (on twin motor Yamahas) by fitting better design impellers on the pumps, and applying a noticeably steeper pitch to the left hand side prop. The end result is engines that turn virtually identical rpms all the way through the throttle movement range, and an end to the steering wheel constantly “tugging” to the left. In most cases, the “off-the-shelf” pitch of the props we chose were not right on the money, so we custom pitch each pair that we sell to the specs that worked best during our on-water tests. Installing these “staggered pitch” aftermarket impellers is one of the most effective improvements that you can make to your twin motor Yamaha jet-boat.:cool:
 

McMark

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Have you noticed the wheel turns more degrees from center to the right than left? Or maybe just my boat is that way. Hehe.
 

ChrisP

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Julian, this except from the GroupK site might hint at your answer:

About Pump Loading
All technicians that build high performance PWCs quickly learn a few fundamental rules about PWC pump function. As you engage a jet-pump driven watercraft in to a high-speed (power-on) left hand turn, the engine/pump gets very heavily loaded, and engine rpms are usually “pulled down”. However, making a right hand turn at exactly the same speed results in no rpm loss at all … and often results in an rpm increase, often accompanied by mild cavitation.
The reason for this phenomenon is that the entry angle of water coming in towards the impeller has a big effect on how well the pump get “loaded”. In left hand turns, the water comes toward the prop at an angle that very effectively “loads” the pump with water, and allows for very minimal “cavitation”. A hard right hand turn has exactly the opposite effect because the water is coming in toward the prop in a way that is very “unfriendly” to pump loading. Anyone who has driven a single engine Exciter 135 will experience this phenomenon in a big way. Using aftermarket impellers with a better blade/hub design can greatly reduce the cavitation experienced under all conditions …including in right hand turns. But even the best designed prop cannot eliminate right-turn cavitation altogether.
Twin Engine Pump Loading
The phenomenon described above affects the twin motor jet boats in an entirely different way. The water intake surfaces on the bottom of twin motor hulls are on angled surfaces on each side of the hull. This “angled water entry” gives an effective entry angle that mimics the pump loading of turning the boat. This means that (while driving in a straight line) the drivers side pump (starboard) is receiving water at an angle that mimics a left hand turn (thus loading the engine rpms down). At the same time, the passenger side (port) impeller is receiving water at an angle that mimics a right hand turn (resulting in higher rpms and a closer cavitation threshold). This is why the left (port) motors of most twin-engine Yamaha jet-boats tend to run higher rpms than the right (starboard) engines.
Getting past the whole theoretical aspect, the functional result is what’s important.. Because of the phenomenon described above, the right side pump is generating more actual thrust than the left pump at any given rpm. This causes the steering wheel to constantly be “tugging” toward a left hand turn, and at the same time causes the left side engine to rev higher than the right engine in order to generate the same thrust.
After weeks of testing, we eventually resolved all these problems (on twin motor Yamahas) by fitting better design impellers on the pumps, and applying a noticeably steeper pitch to the left hand side prop. The end result is engines that turn virtually identical rpms all the way through the throttle movement range, and an end to the steering wheel constantly “tugging” to the left. In most cases, the “off-the-shelf” pitch of the props we chose were not right on the money, so we custom pitch each pair that we sell to the specs that worked best during our on-water tests. Installing these “staggered pitch” aftermarket impellers is one of the most effective improvements that you can make to your twin motor Yamaha jet-boat.:cool:
Where do you get these type of aftermarket impellers?
 

The Budnick's

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I'm with @ChrisP, @Glassman, Where did you find this info? I'd be interested in fixing this issue on mine since my wife drives while I ski and she's having issues with the pulling to the left. I thought about adjusting the throttle cables to fix the rpm difference but it sounds like that won't fix the actual issue.
 

Glassman

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I'm with @ChrisP, @Glassman, Where did you find this info? I'd be interested in fixing this issue on mine since my wife drives while I ski and she's having issues with the pulling to the left. I thought about adjusting the throttle cables to fix the rpm difference but it sounds like that won't fix the actual issue.
GroupK, owned by Harry Klemm, has been around for a while now:

http://www.groupk.com/
I noticed that their site appears a little different....I don't see stuff on the newer model boats, that just might mean they are keeping things updated or focusing more on two strokes?.

Riva Racing is another good source for parts that are interchangeable between the earlier boats and the PWC's, such as pump parts, impellers, etc.

http://rivaracing.com/

The best bet is to call and talk to someone about what you want to achieve. If you want more low end pull for skiing or more top end for speed, they know what impeller will work best for your needs.

And I'll add SBT to the list just in case you aren't aware of them:

http://www.shopsbt.com/

and Island Racing:

http://www.islandracing.net/212230232.html
 
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PolarXJ

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Have you noticed the wheel turns more degrees from center to the right than left? Or maybe just my boat is that way. Hehe.
Mine is that way too. Just noticed it last time out.
 

txav8r

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The best thing you can do is learn to accept the boat the way it is, and learn to control it. Adding compensation may take care of the pump effect, but it will add other factors after making the pump change. Cause and affect (effect)? Or better yet, unforeseen consequences. It is like adding fins to help you learn. You will learn just fine, but others not as familiar need help, so fins are not a bad thing. And they will even help you when conditions are tough. But changing impellers for this IMO is going to just add some unexpected issues either at speed or at slow speed. Yamaha is giving the very best compromise you can get for a sea level to 3000' elevation boat. Beyond that, change the impellers if you need to. We just have too much mass to get more than a 1% improvement in upgrades like this, and it is the exact same way on airplanes too. Somewhere, you have to accept the forces at play. Bottom line, there is nothing wrong with the boat. Even stern drives have their issues because they have a rotating prop.
 

Jackew

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I believe my question was answered. The turns to the right should be wider and something that is just more noticeable with my newer boat. Some of the comments made a lot of sense and I thank you all for your feedback an insight !!!
 

dancathy

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My boat is the same way it will turn much sharper to the left than right. Never noticed it as much on my 2013. Does Yamaha pitch the factory impellers differently then?
 

txav8r

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Yes they do.
 

Eric Rouse

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Yamaha could fix this if they developed a counter rotating engine in to balance it out. Yes I know that would cost money but not that much and the benefit to the reputation would be huge.
 

txav8r

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Yamaha could fix this if they developed a counter rotating engine in to balance it out. Yes I know that would cost money but not that much and the benefit to the reputation would be huge.
The cost of this would be HUGE. Every engine they make would have to be redesigned and have twice the parts support due to having mirror image parts for not one but now two engines that are identical, but the mirror image. The only other way to do it is to add gearing to reverse the rotation of the shaft. What your considering is to add a big cost with little added benefit, it will still be a jet boat and the difference in turn is only apparent in an abrupt turn, it just takes more pressure to turn right than to the left otherwise. Every other boat on the market deals with P factor and torque that impacts steering input. If it has a prop, it has issues. Yes, duo prop or counter rotating will erase some of it, but both of those designs are much more money and they both have transmissions, another cost and maintenance issue I would hate to see introduced in these boats. Every gear in a drive chain is a loss of shaft HP. Now considering that they are rapidly approaching $70K for the flagship, what is a few more thousand to make some happy...but they are losing market share every $10K they increase cost. At some point, other boats become more attractive.
 

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Now considering that they are rapidly approaching $70K for the flagship, what is a few more thousand to make some happy...but they are losing market share every $10K they increase cost. At some point, other boats become more attractive.
Sage words, mon capitan, sage words. :winkingthumbsup"
 

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First off I am fine with the boat I am just responding to the fix.

Correct me if I am wrong but I do not believe you have to build a mirror image. Can be done simply enough by changing the firing sequence, primarily. Yes there would be some internal pumps and other small items that would have to be corrected but I think that would be small potatoes. Of course this is Yamaha we are talking about and the cost would be excessive because well they can. I say this about the reverse rotation because some times my plane engine will reverse rotate off a compression stroke and start running backwards. There does not appear to be any issue from this we simply turn it off and restart. No internal damage results but of course we are not letting it run.

Also Yamaha already produces counter rotating outboards. The tec is there they just have to apply it.
 

txav8r

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Ever heard of the light twins with counter rotating engines? I got my multi-engine rating in a Piper Seneca II a hundred years ago...got my MEI in it also. Two mirror engines. Some of that may be the same part with a different serial, but engines are optimized and flow ported to get the optimum performance. You can't just retime it and change firing order, and get that. There may be shortcuts but it won't be cheap.
 

Eric Rouse

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Awesome to hear you are a fellow pilot! (Aviation and jet boat)
I agree there will be costs involved. My point was is that counter rotating fixes all the issues and puts them in balance instead of robbing Peter to pay Paul. If the angle of the intake is a factor and contributes to the pump inconsistencies then would that not be the best fix? They do it on outboards because of this?
As far as the flow porting and optimization you are referencing I can only infer that you know much more about it than I do. Not trying to be a smart ass here just trying to learn. For the life of me I can not see how a piston going up and down spinning a shaft in one direction or another would need to be reported. On the top end it is all the same. Suck, bang, blow.....no rotation just up and down? So a different cam if it is rotating in reverse, pumps and a prop? But as I said I don't have a degree in it. Looking back on it maybe the firing sequence is not the question. Timing I think would have been better wording.
Help me out here.
Thanks,
 

txav8r

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I'm no expert either, but when I was in general aviation, I remember that those counter rotating props cost big bucks having two sets of engines, props, and accessories, that mounted different on the two. I lost my props long ago, as they say, pilots don't get old, they just lose their props! Even a turbofan engine creates a difference as it too is rotating. Maybe your on to something, but I kind of think the actual costs will outweigh the benefit. But hey, I am conservative and while I don't actually see the glass as half full, I have been accused of it. At this point, I just see more of the issues than I did early in my career. I once did some R&D test flying for Hartzell and Raisbeck Engineering, using our companies Beechcraft E-90 King Air to test and certify the Quiet Turbo Fan Propeller for that model King Air. I wouldn't do that now!

I never welcomed you to the forum in all of this! WELCOME! Eric, if you add your zip code to your profile, it will automatically add you to the member map, a very cool forum feature! Welcome once again!
 

scot71

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The more I read the comments in these kinds of threads, the more ignorant I feel. Oh how I wish now that I had applied myself more in my younger days. :banghead:
 
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