Complete DEVASTATION...Not for the Weak

[Hannibal]

That's a good post to read after a work day like today! May you have many fun and trouble free outings with it!

 

[mdwarchichoke]

Glad she is back! I started the break in on ours weekend before last. Did the low RPM's and heat cycle routines asked, then just as we can go up to 90% throttle she sucked up a log! HA. Hope you get to break it soon.

 

[Drift Away]

This Post is VERY Graphic and not for the weak. Proceed at your own risk. I do not take responsibility for anyone getting sick to their stomach after viewing this.

It pains me to make this Thread, but I wanted to pass along the information and see what questions I could get answered.

BACKGROUND:

At the beginning of October (2016), we headed out on the boat. It was me, my wife, my son, my daughter, and two of my son's friends. We rode around with no issues that morning, then proceeded to a snorkeling spot out in the Gulf of Mexico. We anchored up there, in 20 feet of water and snorkeled for a couple hours. Water was clear. Only thing would be some jellyfish. Got ready to leave and starboard engine wouldn't start. It would turn over without issue, just like normal, but wouldn't fire up. Port engine fired up no problem.

I tried all the safety switches and lanyard. Still wouldn't fire. Fuses were good too. I know my battery was good as well. I keep extra spark plugs on the boat. Pulled all the plugs. They looked normal. Replaced with new spark plugs and still would fire up.

So my plan was to pinch the cooling line and head back on one engine. Unfortunately, I didn't have anything specifically for pinching the line. I ended up using a vice grip, but it had the round clamp. So I used the END/TIP of the vice grip to pinch the middle of the cooling line. After I clamped it, it looked closed off to me! The cooling line was flat!

So we returned on one engine. Still didn't run but about 5mph back. Speedometer didn't even register. My intention was to go faster, however, it wouldn't get on plane for some reason. I know I've run it on plane on one engine last year (had fishing line caught in the impeller). Didn't have a problem getting on plane last year. Not sure if weight in the boat played a role. It was so strange, I videoed it. I can upload the video if needed to explain.

Anyway, I get back home and the engine still won't start. Turns over just fine. About 1 1/2 weeks go by before I can get the boat to my mechanic. Won't even turn over now. Port engine still fires right up. He pulls the spark plugs to do a compression check.....spark plugs are corroded. What?? The plugs are new and never ran after I installed them. So he pulls the engine and salt water has gotten into the top of my engine. The engine is now seized!

So now he's working on getting it unseized. The engine was still in such good shape, that no salt water leaked passed the pistons. No water in my oil. Dadgummit! But now he's got to replace and rebuild parts. I'm meeting him soon to see exactly what parts I am going to need and what parts he says are still good. Not gonna be cheap either. For now, he says the block is good, but will need new pistons and rings. Also has to work on the valves.

Although I felt very confident I pinched the hose correctly, there is no other explanation as to how the salt water got in there.

Curious what you guys would suggest and what anyone else has done in a similar situation.

Here are some pics he took after pulling the head off.

View attachment 48319

View attachment 48320


View attachment 48321

And for a better explanation of the vice grips...Here is a SIIMILIAR pair like I used. But I did not put the hose where the nut is here in this photo.....


View attachment 48322


I pinched the hose with this area.


View attachment 48323



Anyway, I'm going back to the bar to drown my sorrows....

 

[Seadeals]

So threads like this are tough to stomach; but many of us continue to love and use our boats well beyond their "like brand new" childhoods. @ToddW850 and @CrankyGypsy have been very helpful to others by sharing their misfortunes and keeping their boats motoring on.

One of the easiest things to deteriorate as boats get older is your confidence something like this will never happen to you. Small oil seepage in the bilge happens to many; but it doesn't necessarily mean you should rip your motor out. At some point maybe you do; but when do you determine that without having a catastrophic day on the water? My regular preventative maintenance includes religious oil changes, spark plug replacements, always monitoring engine compartment for oil/water and bilge for water, checking exhaust clamps and rubber connections, disconnecting/connecting electrical connectors, bearing lube, and check of air filters.

I DO NOT want to get to a point of having to pull engines; but it can happen. Like others, I have posted about tiny amounts of oil on the bottom of both engine pans, which eventually drips and runs forward and down into the center engine floor section with the drain plug. I have also on occasion gotten some water in that area after running around; but it is happening more consistently now. I just did oil changes and plugs today, wiping that area completely clean and then ran back to the ramp 15 minutes (7500-8000 rpm). I did get some water in there and it has to be coming from one of the engines.

Not much; but I want to find where the heck this is coming from and I already tightened all of the rubber connections. I am open to ideas on where to look. It is hard to get to know all of the part details below and behind other components. I can never see any wet parts after running, just water in the floor. I will share photos so everyone can see the exterior condition as reference. Here is the port engine exhaust manifold (correct me if I screw up any terms).

Up close, you can see some corrosion on #4 (aft)

Here is #3 (same)

#2 is hard to see; but cleaner.

#1 (forward) pretty clean.

Forward coupling (around front of engine)

Starboard engine exhaust couplings-opposite side (easier to show than port engine).

I greatly appreciate any suggestions on where exactly to look for an engine water leak "issue" as I have researched as much as I can on the forum and am still at a loss (with my head down in the engine compartment, iPhone videos, FaceTime videoscope efforts and all). It makes little sense to me to start taking things apart over tiny bits of oil and a seemingly spurratic and only occasional water puddle on the engine room floor. That said, I also don't want to find out I have a real problem after it is too late.

 

[Julian]

Are you sure its not the shaft leaking?

 

[Seadeals]

Not 100% sure. The water only collects in the center floor section. The aft section with the bilge pump is always bone dry. I figured if the shaft leaked it would not end up forward like that.

 

[bronze_10]

could it be leaking on one of the hoses that shout out the side near the hull and just runs done the outside of the hose back to the engine compartment? Like a leaking water hose.. not enough of a leak to drip straight down but enough to run back along the outside of the hose back into the engine compartment before it drips off..

 

[CrankyGypsy]

I get "blow by" on my cleanout plugs that also leaks by the giant hose clamp at the cleanout tray. this water seeps down into a recess on the outer sides of the pumps within the rear-most compartment where the waterboxes are. this water will then run forward, slowly leaking into the engine compartment, via the holes for the raw water or the waste water hoses. depending on the floor of your engine bay, it could find it's way to the center section.

 

[txav8r]

Water is normal in your engine compartment. But that doesn't exclude a leaky hose. If your oil is clean and not milky, and it is just a drip here and there, I doubt you have any worries. But to help trace it down, get yourself some paper grocery bags. Tape them under the engines and cover the floor of the engine compartment. Go run the boat. Don't do much, just straight run slow to start and slow to stop, so as not to flood the swim deck. If you have a hose leaking, it will leak with engine or water pressure and not matter whether turning, starting, or stopping. Go check the paper bag lined floor. Whatever drips will leave a trail. As discussed previously, water can bypass the clean out plugs, clean out tray, and a number of other areas. So you may be chasing ghosts here but this might give you more to go on.

 

[itsdgm]

There are a few places that could be culprits on the exhaust manifold side.

1. Follow the incoming hose that runs under the oil cooler and up to the exhaust manifold/block. It has a few plastic "T-s" that split the flow of water into the oil cooler, block and exhaust manifold.

2. Second, there's a sacrificial anode located under the exhaust manifold that is installed in the block near the #3/4 cylinder exhaust.

3. Third, there's a chance that the exhaust manifold has worn through (especially in salt water areas). There's a few pockets in there that could trap water during storage.

4. Fourth, hopefully not your case. But unfortunately there's been a few guys (including myself) that have had cracked blocks on the water jacket between cylinder 3 & 4 on the exhaust side of the engine.

Here's a few pics of mine. Hope they help you out. Feel free to ask more questions, or we can talk on the phone if you need more info of where to look.

 

[itsdgm]

One thing that will help to diagnose is the temp of the water that you find. If it's cold and stays cold when the engine is running on the lake. It's more than likely supply water coming into the engine. If it's hot (once the engine is up to operating temp) it's water that's passed through the engine or exhaust.

 

[Seadeals]

Thanks for the suggestions guys! @bronze_10 good thought but not the pee hoses, they are all forward of the center floor section and would drip into the forward bulkhead section where the fuel compartment and floor drain is located. @CrankyGypsy I get a little plug blow-by as well. It will pool a little on top of the plugs but no leakage into the aft bilge, which normally stays bone dry. @itsdgm my suspicion (and fear) is in line with your photos. That is where I have been sniffing but couldnt quite make sense of where exactly to look and orient myself. I used a light And mirror to thoroughly inspect the exhaust and blocks. Port turned up free from any smoking guns; but look at what I see on the starboard.

The camera angle is oriented on an angle (hard to hold); but do you see what I see?

 

[itsdgm]

Thanks for the suggestions guys! @bronze_10 good thought but not the pee hoses, they are all forward of the center floor section and would drip into the forward bulkhead section where the fuel compartment and floor drain is located. @CrankyGypsy I get a little plug blow-by as well. It will pool a little on top of the plugs but no leakage into the aft bilge, which normally stays bone dry. @itsdgm my suspicion (and fear) is in line with your photos. That is where I have been sniffing but couldnt quite make sense of where exactly to look and orient myself. I used a light And mirror to thoroughly inspect the exhaust and blocks. Port turned up free from any smoking guns; but look at what I see on the starboard.
View attachment 53554
The camera angle is oriented on an angle (hard to hold); but do you see what I see?

Yep. That's where mine was located. It right at the base of where one of the head bolts is located. I discovered mine after having repairs done on a stuck valve. It's my belief that the crack was probably always there and whether or not mine was leaking or not, it went unnoticed until the head was retightened (a couple of times for other reasons). Each time, the leak got worse. I'm pretty sure that there's a defect in either the casting of that area of the block, or that the threading of that hole wasn't done properly and the head bolt blows out the bottom when torqued.

It took me a while to pinpoint the leak. I removed the engine (for the 3rd time ) and attempted without success to have it welded. So I replaced the engine with a used Waverunner engine. I'll attempt to complete this season on the used engine while I replace the block on the original one and decide later whether to swap it back in or not.

Since it simply leaks outside the engine, It's really hard to tell whether or not it will eventually cause catastrophic failure, but I didn't want to chance it. It will continue to crack further, but how far? @cybuch had a similar situation along with a cooling jacket crack that leaked internal and caused a much worse situation.

So keep an eye on your oil and make sure there's no moisture, or god forbid a "chocolate milkshake".

 

[cybuch]

@Seadeals definitely keep an eye on your oil, you will see it first on the underside of the oil cap. I now have two new engines in my boat. The first one went bad after water worked its way into the ECU and stuck an injector open (threw a rod). Had that rebuilt, only to throw a rod again, at < 10 hours. Had it rebuilt again and it has been fine ever since. The other motor had a crack in the block and milkshake oil. Bought a motor from SBT and it spun 2 bearings before the break in period. Sent it back and they fixed it, its back in and made it just past the 100 minute mark.

 

[Seadeals]

Thanks a million! This forum is awesome. There is a small crack there and based on the deposit trail, I definitely feel this is the source of the water from yesterday's post oil change run (with a perfectly cleaned engine bay floor). I love the paper bag idea to confirm it is the only source. It is hard to say from others' experience with this how long it took to ultimately reach a "gotta pull it/hard failure". I knew the water was not normal for my boat. It was something that just recently started happening more than once.

Soooooo, what now? It still runs great. No water in oil yet. I am kicking myself for forgetting my compression set yesterday. Even though I crushed the gaskets on a new set of plugs, I am thinking it would be a good idea to check compressions. I am curious why welding didn't work and if it is truly a waste of time. I really do NOT want to build an engine. Heck I dread even having to pull it.

A logical game plan???:
1. Head back to the lake (borrowing a buddy's old laptop to run YDS)
2. Tape down paper bags under engines and on floor (possibly duct tape a mirror by the problem area)
3. No wake it out of boat launch area, pause and check for any drops (results from idle power)
4. Plane up taking it easy and getting the engines up to temp
5. Stop and check for water leak track (results from cruise power)
6. Hook up yds to starboard and learn what I can.- record (this will take some homework)
6. Check oil for water contamination (old oil just removed was fine-yay!)
7. Pull starboard plugs and check compressions -record
8. Reinstall plugs (careful on torque since I already crushed the 1/2 turn gasket)
9. Start engine and watch for check engine warning. (Confirming it works post maintenance before touching the other engine)
10. Hook up yds to port (had a few check engine events last two outing that always go away when restarting)-record (hopefully nothing!)
11. Depending on time and YDS info, run compressions on port.
12. Remove paper, dry floor, start up both, confirm no issues/warnings then run for 15 or possibly 30 minutes straight at normal cruise for a timed leak rate measurement.
13. Back to ramp with a better understanding of what may need to be done.

Is it a bad sign I came up with a 13 step process?!

 

[itsdgm]

I first noticed my leak while running it on the lake for the first time after my engine work. After reworking the head for the second time, @Seadeals mine was leaking while it ran on the trailer hooked up to the garden hose. Initially, I kept assuming that it had to be a hose or gasket, eventually I started thinking the worse possible situations. Only after using a scope did I see it actually leaking from the block. Its such a tight space down there and I got tired of burning my fingers poking around. I borrowed a scope from a friend and "Bingo" there it was. It was a Ryobi scope from Home Depot that my friend bought for about $100. Hopefully you can get your hands on one, or maybe a camera that would focus in tight areas. Either way, it helps to have somebody work the throttles while you poke around in the engine compartment. Good luck, keep us posted.

 

[bronze_10]

Thanks a million! This forum is awesome. There is a small crack there and based on the deposit trail, I definitely feel this is the source of the water from yesterday's post oil change run (with a perfectly cleaned engine bay floor). I love the paper bag idea to confirm it is the only source. It is hard to say from others' experience with this how long it took to ultimately reach a "gotta pull it/hard failure". I knew the water was not normal for my boat. It was something that just recently started happening more than once.

Soooooo, what now? It still runs great. No water in oil yet. I am kicking myself for forgetting my compression set yesterday. Even though I crushed the gaskets on a new set of plugs, I am thinking it would be a good idea to check compressions. I am curious why welding didn't work and if it is truly a waste of time. I really do NOT want to build an engine. Heck I dread even having to pull it.

A logical game plan???:
1. Head back to the lake (borrowing a buddy's old laptop to run YDS)
2. Tape down paper bags under engines and on floor (possibly duct tape a mirror by the problem area)
3. No wake it out of boat launch area, pause and check for any drops (results from idle power)
4. Plane up taking it easy and getting the engines up to temp
5. Stop and check for water leak track (results from cruise power)
6. Hook up yds to starboard and learn what I can.- record (this will take some homework)
6. Check oil for water contamination (old oil just removed was fine-yay!)
7. Pull starboard plugs and check compressions -record
8. Reinstall plugs (careful on torque since I already crushed the 1/2 turn gasket)
9. Start engine and watch for check engine warning. (Confirming it works post maintenance before touching the other engine)
10. Hook up yds to port (had a few check engine events last two outing that always go away when restarting)-record (hopefully nothing!)
11. Depending on time and YDS info, run compressions on port.
12. Remove paper, dry floor, start up both, confirm no issues/warnings then run for 15 or possibly 30 minutes straight at normal cruise for a timed leak rate measurement.
13. Back to ramp with a better understanding of what may need to be done.

Is it a bad sign I came up with a 13 step process?!

14 steps..... you have number 6 twice! lol

 

[Seadeals]

Nice catch. Whewwww. I guess this will work out okay after all!

 

[Seadeals]

I am pretty calm about this after some homework (was warmly jesting above-no sarcasm @bronze_10 ).

Leading suggestion-tell my perfectionism to chill out, gain good access clean it extensively and JB weld over it. Can exhaust manifold come off with engine in the mounts or is it a pita & risky? Perhaps easier to lift motor off mounts to access underneath for a quality application? Then just continually monitor for issues.

Another "project" option is buy a local used vx110 and swap for its better engine (think it is all the same but the oil cooler looked a tad different-swap). Do same fix to case while out and accessible but drop it in the ski when done. If the repair fails, I would have had fun with the ski while it lasted. If something goes wrong with the boat, I could sacrifice the ski to keep the boat going.

Welding seems too tough (risky) for the aluminum, case thickness (or thinness) and potential side effects of the heat. Many have suggested avoiding that.

SBT- freaked by all of the cases of their engines failing in a few hours and customer support.

I value and appreciate any input. I am trying to stay practical but the perfectionism and aviation maintenance background (no cracks allowed) makes it hard for me and I sometimes go a bit overboard.

 

[cybuch]

@Seadeals if you plan on using JB weld, I would pull the motor and clean the surface of all paint and oil, use a wire brush. You will have a tough time doing this with the engine in the bay. However, my concern is, will it continue to crack on the inside of the motor, through the water jacket. Its super easy to pull, the most difficult part is pulling the engine hatch cover off, that take two people. After that, all you need is a 12mm wrench, 12mm socket, 10mm socket, pliers, side cutter, and a flat head screw driver (I think thats all)....oh, and a winch or come-a-long tied to your rafters. I hope the JB weld works!