Debate of speed of Bimini 2015 rough water crossing

[rollosan]

His decision to run S L O W endangered his safety AND the safety of the other boats in our group that refused to leave him behind.

@upperdeck My initial thoughts of a captain not keeping his boat on plane during such conditions sounds like a wrong choice, but I wasn't there, nor do I know the circumstances on that particular boat. I don't know if there were other factors besides "comfort" that made him decide to lower his speed. So based on that alone, I cannot discuss that aspect of your post.
However, reading your post it looks as though you think that the other boats should have refused to assist and as you stated "leave him behind".

That comment right there should be a warning to folks thinking about taking this trip. People need to be aware they could potentially end up fending for themselves if the SHTF.
That may not have been what you intended to imply, but you could have very well influenced some folks to think that way. In the event that something were to happen folks could have that "leave them behind mentality" and that's wrong.

When you decide to take this trip as a group you accept the responsibility to travel as a "GROUP". That means you accept the risk involved AND a part of that risk is to do everything possible to ensure the safety of ALL members of the group. You don't leave someone behind, that's the reasoning of a coward and cowards have no business being part of a trip such as this.

I have spent many hours with friends out playing in 20'+ seas in conditions that would make most people piss their pants. We always had a safety brief before going out and we made that pact that if someone was in trouble we did what it took to get them back in safely. We did have a few situations, I once snapped my leg in four places. I was able to make it back to shore on my own "in shock", but my buddies rode back in with me by my side, guiding me to ensure I made it back safely.

Sorry if I offended some of you with my comments, especially being the FNG to the forum, but that comment really rubbed me the wrong way.

 

[Andy S]

@upperdeck My initial thoughts of a captain not keeping his boat on plane during such conditions sounds like a wrong choice, but I wasn't there, nor do I know the circumstances on that particular boat. I don't know if there were other factors besides "comfort" that made him decide to lower his speed. So based on that alone, I cannot discuss that aspect of your post.
However, reading your post it looks as though you think that the other boats should have refused to assist and as you stated "leave him behind".
That comment right there should be a warning to folks thinking about taking this trip. People need to be aware they could potentially end up fending for themselves if the SHTF.
That may not have been what you intended to imply, but you could have very well influenced some folks to think that way. In the event that something were to happen folks could have that "leave them behind mentality" and that's wrong.

When you decide to take this trip as a group you accept the responsibility to travel as a "GROUP". That means you accept the risk involved AND a part of that risk is to do everything possible to ensure the safety of ALL members of the group. You don't refuse to leave someone behind, that's the reasoning of a coward and cowards have no business being part of a trip such as this.

I have spent many hours with friends out playing in 20'+ seas in conditions that would make most people piss their pants. We always had a safety brief before going out and we made that pact that if someone was in trouble we did what it took to get them back in safely. We did have a few situations, I once snapped my leg in four places. I was able to make it back to shore on my own "in shock", but my buddies rode back in with me by my side, guiding me to ensure I made it back safely.

Sorry if I offended some of you with my comments, especially being the FNG to the forum, but that comment really rubbed me the wrong way.

There was no good reason other than comfort or fear that those captains ran as slow as they did. I happen to fully agree with @upperdeck no one should go that will put others in jeopardy because of a slow boats unwillingness to keep up with the group. If the SHTF as group we WILL be there for each other but if someone by their own choice is putting others in harms way, for the safety of masses I fully agree with leaving someone.

Based on my past experience with the Bahamas Tourism Fling, the Bahamas charter captain would not have let the 19' go unless the boat captain could personally convince the charter captain of their open water boating experience. When we first did this trip in 2011, we went with the Bahamas Fling and any boat less than 23' had to talk with the charter captain before they let you go with the group. Bruce's form is an attempt to gauge a captains experience and hopefully weed out people without the experience/skills to make the trip with a group.

FYI - no offense taken, it is better to ask/vent so that everything is out in the open and members can learn.

 

[upperdeck]

@upperdeck My initial thoughts of a captain not keeping his boat on plane during such conditions sounds like a wrong choice, but I wasn't there, nor do I know the circumstances on that particular boat. I don't know if there were other factors besides "comfort" that made him decide to lower his speed. So based on that alone, I cannot discuss that aspect of your post.
However, reading your post it looks as though you think that the other boats should have refused to assist and as you stated "leave him behind".

That comment right there should be a warning to folks thinking about taking this trip. People need to be aware they could potentially end up fending for themselves if the SHTF.
That may not have been what you intended to imply, but you could have very well influenced some folks to think that way. In the event that something were to happen folks could have that "leave them behind mentality" and that's wrong.

When you decide to take this trip as a group you accept the responsibility to travel as a "GROUP". That means you accept the risk involved AND a part of that risk is to do everything possible to ensure the safety of ALL members of the group. You don't leave someone behind, that's the reasoning of a coward and cowards have no business being part of a trip such as this.

I have spent many hours with friends out playing in 20'+ seas in conditions that would make most people piss their pants. We always had a safety brief before going out and we made that pact that if someone was in trouble we did what it took to get them back in safely. We did have a few situations, I once snapped my leg in four places. I was able to make it back to shore on my own "in shock", but my buddies rode back in with me by my side, guiding me to ensure I made it back safely.

Sorry if I offended some of you with my comments, especially being the FNG to the forum, but that comment really rubbed me the wrong way.

@andy07sx230ho may not be, but I am totally offended by this post. If I had to estimate, some of the other captains present on that trip are probably offended too.

You are correct that you weren't there. You were not part of the conversation I had with this captain. This individual, by his own admission, endangered the entire group's safety because his wife was uncomfortable taking big waves.

I had my family and another on my boat. My first responsibility is to them. I would say that applies to every other boat out there. We had no fuel capacity to go the speed he CHOSE to drive his boat. He WAS left behind by the noble captains that stayed with him as long as they could have. Had they stayed, they too would have run out of fuel like he did. Keep in mind, members of our group brought fuel back out to him. And no one abandoned him while he was sinking or anything like that.

No one has the right to CHOOSE to endanger the safety of another for the sake of their comfort. Keep that in mind before you commit to participate.

 

[rollosan]

If the SHTF as group we WILL be there for each other but if someone by their own choice is putting others in harms way, for the safety of masses I fully agree with leaving someone.

Yes, at some point there could be a time where things get to a point they are so bad that your life could be in jeopardy and that decision to "self preserve" needs to be made. I'm not suggesting that someone take it to the point their life is in danger. However, I don't think 5' seas are that severe.

Experience? I'm not ragging on anyone, don't get me wrong, but it sounds as though you are getting your experience by taking these trips. To say that you are an experienced captain by just the simple fact that you've made a couple of these trips is a far stretch. If you had the "experience" you would've been able to recognize the conditions and the risks associated with them and been able to address the potential dangers and possible postpone your departure.

What I'm saying is this is how people get their experience, you are becoming a better captain by getting this experience and are learning what to could happen on these trips and to learn your limits. And what better place for the inexperienced to get their experience than participating these types of outings with those that can help them.

You don't make the decision to leave someone when you have the ability to help them and if you do you're a coward.

 

[rollosan]

@upperdeck

I figured that I would offend you, but that's no sweet off my back. I'm glad I did actually.

For you to say he made the decision to CHOOSE to endanger the safety of another for the sake of their comfort is moronic.
No one would intentionally make a decision to endanger someone else in a situation such as this.

That comment alone is enough to point out that it's not even worth discussing the issue with you as you're not capable of discussing it

 

[upperdeck]

5 foot seas are not severe? In 19' to 24' boats, when you are out of fuel and not in sight of land is plenty severe for me. Keep in mind that those same seas had already sunk two boats on the same crossing.

You keep throwing around the word coward. Seriously, knock it off. Coward is hiding behind a keyboard and trolling this thread. No one there was a coward. I know the captains that stayed with this slow boat and none can be described as a coward. And as I said in my original post, they REFUSED to leave the boat until they had no other choice. The boats that stayed behind timed their departure of the lagging boat perfectly. Those boats themselves ran out of fuel about 500 feet from the fuel dock and had to be towed in.

 

[Julian]

Great discussion, and will help the planning and decision making for future trips, and will help drive some rules and decision making points for captains.

For example, if, when you get out of the harbor, you can't keep your boat going above planing speed, you should turn around and return to port and cancel the attempt rather than choosing to endanger the other boats, OR you chose to go it alone and have extra fuel so you don't run out before arriving at your destination. Continuing to captain a trip towards a destination knowing that you will run out of fuel is not good planning.

@rollosan Please stop the name calling, it is not called for. The problems and challenges discussed have nothing to do with cowardice and have all to do with good planing and captains decision making.

 

[BigN8]

@rollosan , congrats dude! I think you may be the first dude on this forum to achieve a negative ratings ratio! +2/5 LOL!!!!

 

[swatski]

I was not there, but for whatever its worth, I'm 100% with captain @upperdeck. Keeping the boat not on plane under the circumstances is just plane insane and endangering the group.

 

[rollosan]

LoL, As I stated I figured I would offend some folks, but those are my opinions. I'm not calling anyone names, I merely stated my opinion that if you were to make those decisions you would be a coward "in the minds of a lot of folks".

If that hits home I'm sorry.

 

[Bruce]

LoL, As I stated I figured I would offend some folks, but those are my opinions. I'm not calling anyone names, I merely stated my opinion that if you were to make those decisions you would be a coward "in the minds of a lot of folks".

If that hits home I'm sorry.

The conditions were dangerous during the 2015 crossing. That is clearly evidenced by the fact that simply stopping your boat resulted in taking waves over the side or the bow.

I do not know what kind of water craft you are taking out into 20' seas but I am certain that it is not a Yamaha Jet Boat.

We had two boats during the 2015 crossing that chose to cross at an unsafe speed. It was unsafe because they did not have sufficient fuel to make it to their destination at that speed. One of those boats had to borrow 15 gallons of fuel from other boats to complete the trip. That boat had been advised to bring 24 gallons extra fuel before the trip but chose to bring 15. The captain also realized that he did not have enough fuel to complete the trip or return to the US around the half way point. He radioed to me asking for help. I advised him that I had not brought any extra fuel, that I was on plane and would make it to Bimini without a problem and that he should get on plane to get as far as he could before he ran out of fuel.

The boats and skis that stayed with these two slow boats did so as long as they could but were forced to get on plane to make it to Bimini before they ran out of fuel. I believe they stayed with the slow boats until 15 miles out of Bimini. By doing so they bravely risked their and their families lives. Running out of fuel in the Gulf Stream is a terrible situation on a calm day. It would have been much worse in those water conditions. The Gulf Stream averages movement of four miles per hour. At that speed you would be out of VHF range within hours.

Experiences such as this have discouraged most of our Bimini Veterans from making future trips. Posts like yours make it even harder to recruit experienced group leaders. I do not need your BS, please take it elsewhere.

 

[zedxmike]

Wow, I don't read the board for a while and this happens lol. Anyway I am the captain everyone is talking about. First is my experience. I have been deep sea fishing since I was 12. Sail fish tournaments, trolling, deep drops ect. I have caught sails in 12+ seas and maneuvered 40+ boats in doing so. I am definitely no pro but I have spent plenty of time in the sea blah blah blah.
As I stated to upperdeck which he is definitely portraying incorrectly was, I was going as fast as I could "safely". Comfort was never mentioned. As it was, my wife injured her back on that trip and took her 6 months to recover. The choice of my safety and those I am responsible for is mine and no one else.
I really need to straighten out these facts. We were left behind for the last 2 hours of the trip without a boat in sight. Before I was left, I was told they had to get going, but no one asked if I even had a GPS and would be able to find my way. No biggie, I had everything I needed and had been in a solo situation many many times. As for fuel, I had plenty and NO ONE came back to give me fuel. I WAS PREPARED. I came in with fuel left. I know people want to blame me for their fuel problems but I made it with plenty and I was the one dragging waves remember.
The simple fact was, it was rough. Ever one did what they needed to do to maintain the safety of their boat, including me. Again, I was prepared. I was in a 19' boat but no offence I didn't sink or become disabled, I didn't run out of fuel, I packed my boat properly. These are all grave errors other people made on this trip. But I guess my speed is the biggest mistake of all. Weird
Regardless of all this drama, the trip was amazing and I am grateful for the new friends Elena and I made on this trip.

 

[upperdeck]

Wow, I don't read the board for a while and this happens lol. Anyway I am the captain everyone is talking about. First is my experience. I have been deep sea fishing since I was 12. Sail fish tournaments, trolling, deep drops ect. I have caught sails in 12+ seas and maneuvered 40+ boats in doing so. I am definitely no pro but I have spent plenty of time in the sea blah blah blah.
As I stated to upperdeck which he is definitely portraying incorrectly was, I was going as fast as I could "safely". Comfort was never mentioned. As it was, my wife injured her back on that trip and took her 6 months to recover. The choice of my safety and those I am responsible for is mine and no one else.
I really need to straighten out these facts. We were left behind for the last 2 hours of the trip without a boat in sight. Before I was left, I was told they had to get going, but no one asked if I even had a GPS and would be able to find my way. No biggie, I had everything I needed and had been in a solo situation many many times. As for fuel, I had plenty and NO ONE came back to give me fuel. I WAS PREPARED. I came in with fuel left. I know people want to blame me for their fuel problems but I made it with plenty and I was the one dragging waves remember.
The simple fact was, it was rough. Ever one did what they needed to do to maintain the safety of their boat, including me. Again, I was prepared. I was in a 19' boat but no offence I didn't sink or become disabled, I didn't run out of fuel, I packed my boat properly. These are all grave errors other people made on this trip. But I guess my speed is the biggest mistake of all. Weird
Regardless of all this drama, the trip was amazing and I am grateful for the new friends Elena and I made on this trip.

Mike, you are not the captain everyone is referring to. We may have spoken, but yours is not the conversation I am referencing. Nor are you the person that Bruce is talking about I believe.

 

[Bruce]

@zedxmike, it was another captain who needed to borrow fuel. I am glad that you were prepared.

The whole group had fuel problems because most of the group chose to go below planing speeds for most of the crossing.

I accelerated to planing speeds around the 20 mile point. We burned 38 gallons on the crossing. We hit some waves harder but we also did so for fewer hours.

In the future we would like for any crew members who are not prepared to pound waves at planing speeds to fly or ferry over.

 

[Greg M]

I've got no dog in this fight, but I do have a point of view. It doesn't matter who goes, it doesn't matter what the sea/lake conditions are, it doesn't matter if you're part of a group or on your own, the only thing that matters is that you as a captain, your boat/equipment, and ANY crew, are prepared for the worst possible situation at any given time while on the water that you make the CHOICE to boat in. Period.

What you call cowardice is asinine and quite literally very pour decision making Rollosan. Its one thing to see someone in distress and wave as you go bye and not not help, or run away from it as you are assuming happened... its quite another to make an intelligent decision to save everyone.

First off, the boats that got in trouble early on. One was from just flat inexperience nothing more to say, it happens. The other, (sorry brother, but have to say it, you have said it too) did NOT check his equipment, a hugely crucial piece of equipment, and got into trouble. No one left them behind. The entire group turned around in the worst sea of the whole trip and helped. So where is the cowardice?

The second part, a boat goes way to slow to make it all the way. the boat captain KNOWS he cant make it and keeps going with no backup, no plan other than selfishly assuming the group will be his backup plan and take care of him because he knowingly chose to not take care of himself. He is advised by the experienced members to up the pace to take himself out of a very real danger. He chooses to put himself first, he chooses to do something he knows will not work. The group as a whole will be in the exact same danger if they stay with him, so they push on with a plan, get fuel and come back and be ready to handle the call when not if, it comes in. 15 miles from shore, he runs out of gas and none on board. A boat chose to stay with him as far as he could safely do so, hes running low on fuel. A choice has to be made. And its literally this simple. Stay together, both run out of gas, and risk both lives/die together, or run for the harbor, get fuel/radio for help, come back and save the other boat. Explain how leaving someone behind, in this exact situation, is cowardice? Two floating boats, one can keep going and return... its cowardly for him to do so? The way you state it Rollosan, he should man up, and choose to stay behind and die with the slow boat.

Flat out, I have went out when I shouldn't have to help someone, stopped when it was risky to help someone, taken risks to help someone on the water... more than one time! I have saved several people in VERY real danger from literally their own chosen head up ass stupidity. I know for a fact the members youre referring to as cowards have and will risk themselves to help when its remotely feasibly.

Perhaps I'm taking what you're meaning out of context. Perhaps you're talking about this upcoming trip and the mindset being exhibited of "keep up or get left behind" and not the 2015 trip (im pretty sure you are).

If thats the case, in my opinion, the mindset being exhibited and words being spoken are absolutely correct!!! Those words will discourage someone not taking this trip seriously, will greatly insure that those choosing to go are prepared themselves, prepared to rely on themselves, and not be an idiot that just shows up likes its a normal saturday outing on the lake and thinks everyone will bail them out when they put themselves in stupid jeopardy from simply refusing to prepare for what they are doing!!!!! No one... NO ONE is going to leave someone in trouble behind. These aren't those types of people. But the idea of making damn sure everyone knows they should be prepared to the fullest is absolutely correct, and the only way to get this thru some peoples heads, is to flat out say, "you cant make it, its your problem, we wont help you". Damn right its discouraging. It has to be and it is quite literally saving someones life. Again, the easier you make this sound, and we ALL know this is true, the more people that will show up with a bag packed, a pocket of cash, a tank of fuel, and that's it and think "well if anything happens we are a group and the group will take care of me" and not truely assume one ounce of personal responsibility!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Duane652000]

While I have no desire to get into the primary topic on this thread, I will say as an experienced inland boater, with a little blue water experience, I would have no problem going with this group on a blue water trip. The comradery here is fantastic and it sounds to me that they did pretty good considering all the obstacles.

But since I'm not yet a jet boater and unfamiliar with jet efficiency, I'm curious. Were the "slow boats" last year plowing through at like 10-16mph, or slow trolling at 7 -8 mph? I ask because my current BIII boat gets about as good gas mileage at trolling speed as it does at 22-25 mph, while best cruise is around 30 mph. Anything between 8-22 mph fuel mileage drops exponentially.

Do jets get poor mpg at trolling speeds? Or was it the additional distance required because of Gulf Stream that caused the fuel issue? Or were they plowing?

 

[Greg M]

Its my understand the fuel issue was from a boat going just fast enough to keep the nose as high as possible but not pound a wave and have a bumpy ride, as in 10-15mph. Its my understanding they were advised multiple times to up the pace to get better mpg to make sure they wouldnt run out of fuel and refused to do so because it made the ride rougher.

So they made the choice of comfort now over safety in the future knowingly.

Please correct me if I have this wrong. I followed the thread on this religiously but we all know time tends to distort even the best memory.

 

[Andy S]

@GregM is correct, the speed of the slow boats was in the 10-15 mph range, not enough to get on plane. @Duane652000 our jet boats are very similar in mpg as yours, trolling speed good mpg, on plane mid 20-mid 30's mph good mpg, and below being on plane and above trolling is the worst mpg.

 

[john94si]

When we went on jet skis we had set buddies. You only stop or go back if your riding buddy has a problem.. others can continue on. Yes we are a group but make it a rule before you launch. You are responsible for only you and your buddy.. everyone else is on their own.

 

[njmr2fan]

The only good point I read here is that this trip provides ocean experience. I have zero ocean experience. This trip is the only thing that would give me ocean experience. With no ocean for me to experience, I guess I have to face facts that as much as I read the thread, and follow all the videos, and think about making the trip one year, I probably wont get to because my lack of open water experience....