EV discussion - hate or love?

[2kwik4u]

Fuel injected vs. carb... not quite apples to apples, but I get where you're coming from. But also, $1500 to drive 50 miles a day and no more? Pretty shoddy ROI vs a gasser (for now).

Same premise, maybe not same level though.

And most of the blue collar guys I know that commute in with cheap cars, do that only. They don't run errands, or do anything other than to/from the shop and home. Saw one of our welders out at the store last summer. Dude was in a BRAND NEW Tahoe. Come to find out, it's his wife's ride, while he drives the POS Camry 75mi/day round trip.

ROI is all situational and has so many factors you can't pigeon hole it just on range. What works for you might not work for others, and vice versa with needed capabilities.

 

[mtudb24]

As a wiring harness engineer / supplier to most of the major OEM EV's, I have no interest in them. Not to say they aren't for a certain group of people, but they are not for me or my family in our applications.

 

[BlkGS]

I think EVs are a great idea for a lot of applications. I think BEVs are one of the dumbest ideas we have ever come up with as a species, right up there with Kardashians.

There are certain applitahere a BEV makes sense. School buses and regular buses, are both great examples. Regular buses are almost 100% city use, with plenty of regeneration chances, and they stop at defined bus stops that could be configured as charging points if needed. Plus they're large vehicles with lots of roof.space for solar panels that could so charge them. School buses sit for half a day between pick up and drop off and could be charged then and overnight. And I will concede there are people who have just the right commute for an ROI on a BEV.

That said, I would wager the vast majority of people don't fall into that situation, unless they live somewhere like CA or NYC or some.place with politicians that are vested into it for whatever reason (trying to stay apolitical here). In places that don't have high gas taxes, most folks will never see an ROI.

That said, PHEVs and series hybrid or ER EVs make a lot of sense for almost everyome, provided they keep the cost down. And that should be easy to do by making smaller, cheaper batteries, and using powertrains that are inexpensive yet provide the power generation necessary to run as a generator. For performance guys like me, a PHEV can be awesome because I can outt around on battery for the ~30 miles I might commute (mine is 20 a day), and get extra thrust when I want to go fast.

I think synthetic fuels are the answer.to the much spoken about global warming issue a d fossil fuels usage issue. Ignoring the question of validity of that concern or solutions proposed, the biggest obstacle (that isn't financial interests of people who shouldn't be allowed to have financial interests) is energy creation. Synthetic fuels are at a basic level bottling up energy, taking energy loss along the way. Conveniently, that's the same problem that has to be solved with charging a bunch of batteries. And if you solve that hurdle with a form of energy that's clean and makes abundant amounts of energy (this wonder energy would probably be called something like "nukular" if it existed), you could turn on large scale synthetic fuel creation easily and reuse existing vehicles and infrastructure and not have any technical limitations.

Even if we decided to say that electric motors are the better form of propelling a vehicle, a ra.ge extender running on synthetic fuel is still a better option than lugging around a big heavy expensive battery as opposed to a standard fuel tank and a generator motor designed with low cost and reliability in mind. You wouldn't need any of the extra emissions stuff we have on our ICE engines now because the synthetic fuels don't create pollution, and since it just has to spin a generator it doesn't need a ton of power.

All that said, all the BE s on the BEVs on the market are unappealing to me. They're either super cheap inside and poorly built (Tesla, Mach E), too weird (Rivian, Hyundai, Kia), too doomed (Rivian, Fisker), close but need to be closer to a gasser (Lightning), or just plain too expensive (all the German offerings). BMW I think is getting closest with stuff like the I5, and the Audi ETron GT and Taycan are just too much money. Lightning I could have seen myself.owning actually, had they just made it a powertrain in regular f150 like BMW is doing. But being stuck with a truck that looks 2 generations old now with that hideous vertical screen I just can't do

Anyways, thanks for coming to my TED talk

 

[BlkGS]

Just saw Fisker declared bankruptcy. Not a big surprise there. Lucid and Rivian re likely next to fail.

 

[anmut]

I read yesterday that the new Tesla Model 3 has 54% new parts, so now it qualifies for the government refund again.... LOL Elon is a smart dude!

 

[djetok]

I'm seriously looking at the IONIQ 5N. I have the 5 Limited now. This would be nothing more than a mid life crisis car (a little late LOL).

Generic overview of 5N:

Drift mode:

There are tons of videos of people playing with drift mode....

Misha rips it on the Nurburgring

 

[Bluewater272]

And I will concede there are people who have just the right commute for an ROI on a BEV.

You'll concede that there are homeowners who don't routinely drive more than 200 miles a day? How gracious, lol.

 

[BlkGS]

You'll concede that there are homeowners who don't routinely drive more than 200 miles a day? How gracious, lol.

No, that there's homeowners who have a 150ish mile per day commute. If the commute isn't long enough, there no ROI. My commute is 10 miles each way, 2-3 days a week. My ROI for an EV vs a comparable gas car is effectively forever. Now if I was commuting 75-100 miles each way, it would pay for itself eventually.

 

[2kwik4u]

No, that there's homeowners who have a 150ish mile per day commute. If the commute isn't long enough, there no ROI. My commute is 10 miles each way, 2-3 days a week. My ROI for an EV vs a comparable gas car is effectively forever. Now if I was commuting 75-100 miles each way, it would pay for itself eventually.

ROI is so subjective that you can't blanket statement a mileage where it is or isn't' worth it.

If I'm trading my Q7 for an R1S, then the ROI is going to be much different than if I total the Q7 and am buying a Model 3. The cost associated with purchase vary as widely as the use cases do. For some it's a win for others it's not, and that's before we get to the subjective/emotional variant.

That emotional purchase part is huge as well. I LOVE rotary powered sports cars. 99% of the world thinks they're useless and stupid. Doesn't make it a bad choice for me, just not the right choice for you. BEV's have the same swing to them. Some buy on ROI, some buy on emotion. Lots buy with a lack of information (or wrong information), and are oblivious. Which leads to such blanket statements, well, being just wrong.

 

[BlkGS]

ROI is so subjective that you can't blanket statement a mileage where it is or isn't' worth it.

If I'm trading my Q7 for an R1S, then the ROI is going to be much different than if I total the Q7 and am buying a Model 3. The cost associated with purchase vary as widely as the use cases do. For some it's a win for others it's not, and that's before we get to the subjective/emotional variant.

That emotional purchase part is huge as well. I LOVE rotary powered sports cars. 99% of the world thinks they're useless and stupid. Doesn't make it a bad choice for me, just not the right choice for you. BEV's have the same swing to them. Some buy on ROI, some buy on emotion. Lots buy with a lack of information (or wrong information), and are oblivious. Which leads to such blanket statements, well, being just wrong.

If you start factoring in negative equity and all that kind of stuff, yeah, it gets muddy. But at a basic level, if you say "what will a Model Y LR or a Mach E or a EV6 cost me to commute in vs a comparable vehicle like a Kia Sportage", it gets pretty easy. Purchase price difference vs energy costs. If you drive 200 miles a month like me, that delta takes a very, very long time to pay off. If you drive 200 miles a day, it happens 20-25x faster. If you live somewhere without a lot of gas taxes like where I do in FL, it takes longer to happen than if you live someplace with high gas taxes.

That said, I would think most EVs would be ROI based decisions, but as we both know, I'm a data guy. To me an EV doesn't get me excited like it's a sports car, they're appliances for going A to B to me, and appliances are ROI decisions. But I suspect you're ikely right, the vast majority of people just act, and don't analyze everything beforehand. That's why Lightning appealed to me - it was cheaper than a comparable gas F150 for a bit. But it being essentially 2 generations behind in styling, and not allowing high trims to get a portrait screen killed it for me.

Anyways, I think the Audi e trons look great, the Taycan does too. Really like the BMW i5 looks too. But they all look like normal cars, that just happen to be EVs, and that's appealing to me. The e tron GT is great looking in general. They also depreciate like mad, I bet in a year or two they're gonna be some crazy good deals.

 

[2kwik4u]

If you start factoring in negative equity and all that kind of stuff, yeah, it gets muddy. But at a basic level, if you say "what will a Model Y LR or a Mach E or a EV6 cost me to commute in vs a comparable vehicle like a Kia Sportage", it gets pretty easy. Purchase price difference vs energy costs. If you drive 200 miles a month like me, that delta takes a very, very long time to pay off. If you drive 200 miles a day, it happens 20-25x faster. If you live somewhere without a lot of gas taxes like where I do in FL, it takes longer to happen than if you live someplace with high gas taxes.

Exactly, ROI is a sliding scale. Even if you start with a zero in both columns, geography, local taxes, infrastructure, all kinds of stuff plays into it.

That said, I would think most EVs would be ROI based decisions, but as we both know, I'm a data guy. To me an EV doesn't get me excited like it's a sports car, they're appliances for going A to B to me, and appliances are ROI decisions. But I suspect you're ikely right, the vast majority of people just act, and don't analyze everything beforehand. That's why Lightning appealed to me - it was cheaper than a comparable gas F150 for a bit. But it being essentially 2 generations behind in styling, and not allowing high trims to get a portrait screen killed it for me.

Same reason a Titan is a poor seller. I would wager emotion makes more sales than logic. EV's aren't immune to that phenomenon

Anyways, I think the Audi e trons look great, the Taycan does too. Really like the BMW i5 looks too. But they all look like normal cars, that just happen to be EVs, and that's appealing to me. The e tron GT is great looking in general. They also depreciate like mad, I bet in a year or two they're gonna be some crazy good deals.

I LOVE the look of the eTron S SUV. Can't justify one, but they look amazing and have great performance. Would make a helluva commuter car for me.

 

[Julian]

If you start factoring in negative equity and all that kind of stuff, yeah, it gets muddy. But at a basic level, if you say "what will a Model Y LR or a Mach E or a EV6 cost me to commute in vs a comparable vehicle like a Kia Sportage", it gets pretty easy. Purchase price difference vs energy costs. If you drive 200 miles a month like me, that delta takes a very, very long time to pay off. If you drive 200 miles a day, it happens 20-25x faster. If you live somewhere without a lot of gas taxes like where I do in FL, it takes longer to happen than if you live someplace with high gas taxes.

That said, I would think most EVs would be ROI based decisions, but as we both know, I'm a data guy. To me an EV doesn't get me excited like it's a sports car, they're appliances for going A to B to me, and appliances are ROI decisions. But I suspect you're ikely right, the vast majority of people just act, and don't analyze everything beforehand. That's why Lightning appealed to me - it was cheaper than a comparable gas F150 for a bit. But it being essentially 2 generations behind in styling, and not allowing high trims to get a portrait screen killed it for me.

Anyways, I think the Audi e trons look great, the Taycan does too. Really like the BMW i5 looks too. But they all look like normal cars, that just happen to be EVs, and that's appealing to me. The e tron GT is great looking in general. They also depreciate like mad, I bet in a year or two they're gonna be some crazy good deals.

You should really try driving a performance model of any EV. Such a delight to drive!

 

[djetok]

always thought of an EV as fast, only in a straight line. Watching Misha on the nurburgring in a Ionic 5 n changed my opinion. I have an M2, M340I x drive and an x3m. All of my vehicles have bootmod3 stage 2+,catless dp, upgraded intercoolers, and Dorch HPFP. None will keep up with the ionic n in a straight line to the 1/8 mile. My M340x drive is almost 600 whp and runs a 9.98 with a good da. EV's don't care about DA. In that video there was a M2 CS that was barely outpacing him in the corners but he would catch up with his instant torque.

This will give you an idea of how fast the m340 xdrive is and that is a hellcat jailbreak on a drag radial. This is also pre 2.5 daw hybrid turbo swap, so he is even faster now.

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[Jim_in_Delaware]

While daily commute is certainly a metric used by some, I think average daily drive distance is probably a better one. While some folks have long commutes, many folks drive just as much running errands and going places. Heck, my commute is zero (retired), but I still average about 1,000 miles per month.

I just don’t believe there is much demand for hybrids, and this is why very few worldwide auto manufacturers are focused on them. Personally, with a 30 - 50 mile range, I don’t want to have to plug in every time I use it. One exception I might make if I was buying a car today might be the Dodge Hornet, as I like the paddles for extra boost.

Not really interested is buying a BEV today, but I suspect this will change with the flood of newer and cheaper models coming in the next couple of years. Still waiting with bated breath to see the new 2025 Ramcharger. An affordable little BEV sports car, however, would also be cool for our daily driving needs (while keeping my current ICE Ram).

Jim

 

[BigN8]

We picked up this hybrid Volvo May 31. This screen shot is the current gas range. We haven’t put gas in this car since picking it up. The EV range is low currently cause we plugged it in late yesterday. Her commute is roughly 34 miles round trip. So a full charge gets her there and back. Based on this rate I’d say we won’t put gas in this car for another several weeks. As far as plugging in and unplugging it really not a hassle. She just unlocks the car, unplugs it, tosses the plug aside and goes. Same for plugging in. Cord stays plugged in all the time.

 

[BlkGS]

You should really try driving a performance model of any EV. Such a delight to drive!

I have. Does nothing for me. I've reached a point where all our performance isn't what matters to me anymore. I don't need to be the stoplight king, I'd rather get enjoyment out of driving it. That's made harder by the fact that I now live in grids-for-roads FL, so I don't get a lot of nice turns for enjoyment. So it's the sounds and feels that I can get enjoyment from. EVs just don't do that by design, so they just don't really appeal to me. Maybe in a few years I won't get enjoyment out of the sounds and feeling anymore and I'll be a bored shell of a person and I'll go to an EV? I dunno. Right now I'm feeling like I should order a manual M3 and get enjoyment out of shifting gears? Traffic here sucks, but honestly I take the route I found that's less traffic for the Corvette most days anyways because I hate the stop and go and swarms of cars, so maybe it wouldn't be so bad?

What would be bad is being murdered by the wife for getting another car lol.

 

[BlkGS]

Exactly, ROI is a sliding scale. Even if you start with a zero in both columns, geography, local taxes, infrastructure, all kinds of stuff plays into it.


Same reason a Titan is a poor seller. I would wager emotion makes more sales than logic. EV's aren't immune to that phenomenon


I LOVE the look of the eTron S SUV. Can't justify one, but they look amazing and have great performance. Would make a helluva commuter car for me.

I think the amount of people that a big battery BEV has a good ROI for is fairly low, a niche if you will. Most people could commute off a PHEV sized range and never use the gas motor, at least not during warmer months.

I honestly don't get why titan was such a failure. Maybe it was too derivative? 1st gen titan had some neat stuff like the fender boxes, and always drove way sportier and more car like than competitors. 2nd Gen was just what you'd get if you asked an AI to design a truck. I dunno if they just went too generic or what. Maybe they just misread the market and thought people wanted trucks, when reality is people want luxury crossovers with a pickup bed? I dunno.

 

[2kwik4u]

I think the amount of people that a big battery BEV has a good ROI for is fairly low, a niche if you will. Most people could commute off a PHEV sized range and never use the gas motor, at least not during warmer months.

Agree here - somewhat.....300mi range is overkill for most. Making a purchase to satisfy a couple road trips a year when you're mostly just commuting. I would wager that most commuters could get by with just 150mi/day worth of range. Would have to have home charging, and fully recharge each night. Meh you get the idea. Would be neat to weigh total cost of ownership and include a rental for road trips. Would be interesting to see how that worked out.......like, how many miles do you have to drive a day on EV to justify an ICE rental for 2 vacations a year to break even, or even come out money ahead. Interesting thought.

I honestly don't get why titan was such a failure. Maybe it was too derivative? 1st gen titan had some neat stuff like the fender boxes, and always drove way sportier and more car like than competitors. 2nd Gen was just what you'd get if you asked an AI to design a truck. I dunno if they just went too generic or what. Maybe they just misread the market and thought people wanted trucks, when reality is people want luxury crossovers with a pickup bed? I dunno.

Agreed on all these things.

 

[Ribs77]

On the west coast, most people need 300 mile range, especially given that 300 miles is not really 300 miles in the winter when you're running the heater.

Seattle to Portland (or the reverse) is 185 miles minimum, and if you factor in any side errands or driving you want to do AFTER the trip, you could easily burn 220.

That said, I don't mind if I have to stop to charge for 30 mins every 300 miles or so. It's a good way to break up the driving and keep you alert. I have a gas guzzling minivan and a hybrid SUV for now, but I'm sure I'll get an EV in the next 10 years or so.

 

[BlkGS]

On the west coast, most people need 300 mile range, especially given that 300 miles is not really 300 miles in the winter when you're running the heater.

Seattle to Portland (or the reverse) is 185 miles minimum, and if you factor in any side errands or driving you want to do AFTER the trip, you could easily burn 220.

That said, I don't mind if I have to stop to charge for 30 mins every 300 miles or so. It's a good way to break up the driving and keep you alert. I have a gas guzzling minivan and a hybrid SUV for now, but I'm sure I'll get an EV in the next 10 years or so.

Do people over there commute Portland to Seattle? Or is this just for trips?

Most people I know commute under 50 miles a day. If you could sell a PHEV that covered thaton a charge, you'd basically eliminate the emissions of most situations, while being able to sell a vehicle with a modest price increase over a pure gas vehicle, and issues of range anxiety go away.

IMO, of the market were left to its own devices without government intervention, the end state would be PHEVs and ER EVs with 50-80 mile batteries selling for basically what an ICE equivalent would.

BMW has done this with the X5 45e(which seems universally loved by owners) and 50e (which is plagued by horrible reliability issues). They also offer comparable performance to the V8 competition for less money. There's a winning formula there, and tu.ors are that's basically the route a large portion of the X5 and X7 line are going.