The Vaccine

[lokart]

Be prepared to be pounced on by the pro vax crowd.
Look up the FLCCC website. Lots of good info on there by top doctors in their field. The top 2 Doctors with the Alliance have more peer reviewed articles in the top medical journals then everyone on this site combined.

Not saying they are right but something else to research.

Very informative website for sure. Thanks for providing that resource. I feel like if you want true covid relief, simply turn off the news! The fear mongering from the media is the true pandemic.

 

[Jerlane]

I googled FLCCC and this was one of the first things that popped up:

Frontiers Removes Controversial Ivermectin Paper Pre-Publication

A review article containing contested claims about the tropical medicine drug as a COVID-19 treatment was listed as "provisionally accepted" on the journal's website before being removed this week.

www.the-scientist.com

 

[tabbibus]

Paul Marik. He's smart. Reportedly an asshole who also thinks he has the only truth. But he has done some good work. At this point he seems to want to die on the ivermectin hill. Like I said above. There are some data for it. But I just don't think it's convincing. More importantly for me, way smarter brains than mine also think this.

Correct me if I'm wrong. But there's nothing there about not recommending vaccination is there?

 

[lokart]

I googled FLCCC and this was one of the first things that popped up:

Frontiers Removes Controversial Ivermectin Paper Pre-Publication

A review article containing contested claims about the tropical medicine drug as a COVID-19 treatment was listed as "provisionally accepted" on the journal's website before being removed this week.

www.the-scientist.com

Yeah, I like their statement; "Frontiers takes no position on the efficacy of ivermectin as a treatment of patients with COVID-19, however, we do take a very firm stance against unbalanced or unsupported scientific conclusions."

And the vaccine is balanced with supported scientific conclusions???? Whatever! Lets disqualify a 42 year proven, safe product and trade that with a product with clinical trials that were only conducted by the manufacture.

 

[Julian]

Be prepared to be pounced on by the pro vax crowd.
Look up the FLCCC website. Lots of good info on there by top doctors in their field. The top 2 Doctors with the Alliance have more peer reviewed articles in the top medical journals then everyone on this site combined.

Not saying they are right but something else to research.

I'm Confused....you are posting a reference to a site that is citing studies about a treatment that claims to reduce covid hospitalizations by 92%.

So you are espousing this treatment over a vaccine with results gathered in the same fashion (77m doses of vaccine and 5800 breakthrough cases= 99.993% effectiveness). I get that. Given the choice of a lottery where my chances of winning are 99.993 or another with 92% chance, I will take 99.993% EVERY TIME! Thats 100% of the time. Especially when I can fully see the vast volume of data for the 99.993% efficacy, while the 92% has far less data by an order of magnitude.

Then add to that the need for the world to pick the most effective treatment ASAP and wipe out this virus ASAP so we can get life back to "normal". And for as many people as possible to become vaccinated so we can strangle the spread and get a lid on infections.

 

[crazy4life]

I'm Confused....you are posting a reference to a site that is citing studies about a treatment that claims to reduce covid hospitalizations by 92%.

So you are espousing this treatment over a vaccine with results gathered in the same fashion (77m doses of vaccine and 5800 breakthrough cases= 99.993% effectiveness). I get that. Given the choice of a lottery where my chances of winning are 99.993 or another with 92% chance, I will take 99.993% EVERY TIME! Thats 100% of the time. Especially when I can fully see the vast volume of data for the 99.993% efficacy, while the 92% has far less data by an order of magnitude.

Then add to that the need for the world to pick the most effective treatment ASAP and wipe out this virus ASAP so we can get life back to "normal". And for as many people as possible to become vaccinated so we can strangle the spread and get a lid on infections.

Never in any post of mine didI I say you should not get the vaccine.
I said I am not getting the vaccine .
let me say it again in caps so you can understand. I AM NOT GETTING THE VACCINE.
If you want to get the vaccine more power to you. Notice how it doesn’t bother me that you chose to get the vaccine.

I posted information with different opinions based on very respectrd Doctors in their field. If that bothers you maybe you are the one with the problem.

Thought this was a thread where the OP asked what people thought of the vaccine. Did’nt realize it was a thread to validate or debunk Doctors with different findings in there field of expertise.

I listen to what you have to say without reservations maybe you should do the same.

 

[lokart]

I'm Confused....you are posting a reference to a site that is citing studies about a treatment that claims to reduce covid hospitalizations by 92%.

So you are espousing this treatment over a vaccine with results gathered in the same fashion (77m doses of vaccine and 5800 breakthrough cases= 99.993% effectiveness). I get that. Given the choice of a lottery where my chances of winning are 99.993 or another with 92% chance, I will take 99.993% EVERY TIME! Thats 100% of the time. Especially when I can fully see the vast volume of data for the 99.993% efficacy, while the 92% has far less data by an order of magnitude.

Then add to that the need for the world to pick the most effective treatment ASAP and wipe out this virus ASAP so we can get life back to "normal". And for as many people as possible to become vaccinated so we can strangle the spread and get a lid on infections.

Where are you getting these effectiveness numbers? Keeping in mind that the effectiveness rate is compared to those taking a placebo on people who were never infected. Most medical sites are showing 90-95% effectiveness. You have a 99.4% chance of surviving covid without medical intervention. So why lower your chances by taking an untested drug that is already showing high levels of adverse side effects greater than any other treatments currently being administered for covid. 47% of doctors and nurses want nothing to do with the vaccine. When nearly half of the US healthcare providers say no, that has some weight behind it.

 

[crazy4life]

I'm Confused....you are posting a reference to a site that is citing studies about a treatment that claims to reduce covid hospitalizations by 92%.

So you are espousing this treatment over a vaccine with results gathered in the same fashion (77m doses of vaccine and 5800 breakthrough cases= 99.993% effectiveness). I get that. Given the choice of a lottery where my chances of winning are 99.993 or another with 92% chance, I will take 99.993% EVERY TIME! Thats 100% of the time. Especially when I can fully see the vast volume of data for the 99.993% efficacy, while the 92% has far less data by an order of magnitude.

Then add to that the need for the world to pick the most effective treatment ASAP and wipe out this virus ASAP so we can get life back to "normal". And for as many people as possible to become vaccinated so we can strangle the spread and get a lid on infections.

Since you seem to like numbers here is some food for thought.
There are roughly 321 million people in the US.
31.6 million people got covid which is less than 10%
Which also means 290 million people did not get covid
Out of those 31.6 million 1.8% died with the vast majority being over 70.
So we should vaccinate 100% percent of the population with a vaccine that by some miracle was developed and 100’s of millins of doses prepared in a mere 6 months.
No thanks for me but if you feel better for getting the vaccine then by all means have at it.

Notice how I didnt say not to get the vaccine. As a matterof fact I am glad that you got the vaccine if it makes you feel better.

 

[swatski]

Could you please show me where I said The Mayo Clinic or the American Boards of Medical Specialties endorsed what the Doctor was saying. I'll wait.

Man, stop playing dumb or twisting words.

I made a very clear point that you are using the dude's Mayo and ABMS credentials - to shore up the veracity of your own statements - while those statements directly contradict Mayo and ABMS positions. Which is intellectually dishonest.

This is the direct quote from your post:

This doctor has multiple board certifications and worked at the Mayo Clinic.

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[Julian]

I didn't say anyone should get the vaccine. I said why I am. Sorry you don't like my logic and feel like I'm pressuring you. As I've said before....I live by data and logic. Works for me. I read the article and didn't read anything that changes my position, or that says not to get vaccinated.

 

[crazy4life]

Man, stop playing dumb or twisting words.

I made a very clear point that you are using the dude's Mayo and ABMS credentials - to shore up the veracity of your own statements - while those statements directly contradict Mayo and ABMS positions. Which is intellectually dishonest.

This is the direct quote from your post:


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So the doctor does not have board certifications and never studied at the mayo clinic? I also take offense to a bloviating blowhard saying that I am acting dumb. Why does it bother you so much if there is data out there that conflicts with your data points. I was just pointing out that the Doctor is not some quack but a real Doctor with MD after his name.

I am done having this discussion with you and will make my own decisions.

 

[crazy4life]

I didn't say anyone should get the vaccine. I said why I am. Sorry you don't like my logic and feel like I'm pressuring you. As I've said before....I live by data and logic. Works for me. I read the article and didn't read anything that changes my position, or that says not to get vaccinated.

And I will say again that is a good decsion for you. I dont understand how anyone thinks that I said anyone should not get the vaccine when I said more then enough times that if you want the vaccine then by alll means get it.Never said at any time that I dont like your logic. Sometimes I think Inwrote the wrong things when people said I said this or that and I go back and read my post and I said no such thing. I have no ill will towards anyone who chose to get the vaccine. Good luck to you and your family.

 

[swatski]

Be prepared to be pounced on by the pro vax crowd.
Look up the FLCCC website. Lots of good info on there by top doctors in their field. The top 2 Doctors with the Alliance have more peer reviewed articles in the top medical journals then everyone on this site combined.

Not saying they are right but something else to research.

You have every right to disregard any and all advice of medical establishment - in this country, or anywhere in the world.

BUT - you are not quoting medically accepted sources, rather alternative medicine.

Your comments about top doctors and their peer reviewed articles are made up; while almost anything can be published these days the sources you continue to quote are not published in any reputable, officially indexed, peer-reviewed medical journals.
Would you know the difference?

What you are pushing here, your opinions, are the purview of alternative medicine, in some instances bordering on "conspiracy theories". It is simply not mainstream medical care, and there is no CMS reimbursement schedule for unapproved remedies/medications, albeit there are clinical trials that address that.

You may not like the US medical establishment, FDA, CDC, WHO, CAP, CLIA, their guidelines. But those are the guidelines that are accepted by licensed practitioners, and considered best available. Without those guidelines there is, frankly, havoc.

No one is stopping you from using alternative medicine. Just PLEASE call a spade a spade. Alternative medicine is not a part of the mainstream and, in general, are not rigorously tested.

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[swatski]

Why does it bother you so much if there is data out there that conflicts with your data points.

It doesn't bother me, and I don't have my data points, they are are not hard to find. I just like to stay with the mainstream.

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[crazy4life]

You have every right to disregard any and all advice of medical establishment - in this country, or anywhere in the world.

BUT - you are not quoting medically accepted sources, rather alternative medicine.

Your comments about top doctors and their peer reviewed articles are made up; while almost anything can be published these days the sources you continue to quote are not published in any reputable, officially indexed, peer-reviewed medical journals.
Would you know the difference?

What you are pushing here, your opinions, are the purview of alternative medicine, in some instances bordering on "conspiracy theories". It is simply not mainstream medical care, and there is no CMS reimbursement schedule for unapproved remedies/medications, albeit there are clinical trials that address that.

You may not like the US medical establishment, FDA, CDC, WHO, CAP, CLIA, their guidelines. But those are the guidelines that are accepted by licensed practitioners, and considered best available. Without those guidelines there is, frankly, havoc.

No one is stopping you from using alternative medicine. Just PLEASE call a spade a spade. Alternative medicine is not a part of the mainstream and, in general, are not rigorously tested.

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What does the FDA say about ivermectin being used as a preventitive and treatment for covid? They are neither for or against it.
Dr Kory and Dr Mirak are made up doctors? These are two very respected doctors in there field and you think I made them up.


Newswise — NEW YORK, NEW YORK: —JANUARY 14, 2021: One week after Dr. Paul Marik and Dr. Pierre Kory—founding members of the Front Line Covid-19 Critical Care Alliance (FLCCC)— along with Dr. Andrew Hill, researcher and consultant to the World Health Organization (WHO), presented their data before the NIH Treatment Guidelines Panel, the NIH has upgraded their recommendation on ivermectin, making it an option for use in COVID-19.

This new designation upgraded the status of ivermectin from “against” to “neither for nor against”, which is the same recommendation given to monoclonal antibodies and convalescent plasma, both widely used across the nation.

Guess the NIH is a made up organization also.

I notice that you also like to have the last word so the floor is yours and I will not respond to any more of your nonsense. Made up Doctors that’s to funny.

 

[swatski]

What does the FDA say about ivermectin being used as a preventitive and treatment for covid? They are neither for or against it.
Dr Kory and Dr Mirak are made up doctors? These are two very respected doctors in there field and you think I made them up.


Newswise — NEW YORK, NEW YORK: —JANUARY 14, 2021: One week after Dr. Paul Marik and Dr. Pierre Kory—founding members of the Front Line Covid-19 Critical Care Alliance (FLCCC)— along with Dr. Andrew Hill, researcher and consultant to the World Health Organization (WHO), presented their data before the NIH Treatment Guidelines Panel, the NIH has upgraded their recommendation on ivermectin, making it an option for use in COVID-19.

This new designation upgraded the status of ivermectin from “against” to “neither for nor against”, which is the same recommendation given to monoclonal antibodies and convalescent plasma, both widely used across the nation.

Guess the NIH is a made up organization also.

I notice that you also like to have the last word so the floor is yours and I will not respond to any more of your nonsense. Made up Doctors that’s to funny.

These are the dudes, right?
"This isn’t the first time that Kory and his colleagues at FLCCC have been accused of making unsubstantiated claims about ivermectin. In December, Kory gave a statement at a US Senate hearing on COVID-19 treatments in which he called ivermectin “effectively a ‘miracle drug’” that could obliterate disease transmission and prevent illness—claims that Associated Press fact-checkers labelled “False” at the time. Kory, who formerly oversaw critical care at the UW Health in Wisconsin, tells The Scientist that he now regrets using “miracle” and other hyperbolic terminology.

Later in December, FLCCC founder Paul Marik, the first author on the now-rejected Frontiers manuscript and a professor at Eastern Virginia Medical School, wrote a paper reviewing ivermectin that included references to debunked papers, including an observational study of ivermectin in COVID-19 patients led by now-discredited Surgisphere Corporation. That study, which had been posted on the preprint server SSRN, was taken down at the request of one of the authors back in May after concerns were raised about the provenance of the company’s data."

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[msavold]

Good thought provoking read.

18 reasons I won’t be getting a COVID vaccine – NaturalNews.com

A few friends have asked my thoughts on the covid jab(s) so I thought it was time to write an article on the topic. (Article by Christian Elliot republished from DeconstructingConventional.com) All my friends had not heard most of the details I shared, so I figured you might appreciate hearing...

www.naturalnews.com

Going back to this article... here's Snopes' take on it. And I don't think they have a stake in the game!
'18 Reasons I Won’t Be Getting a COVID Vaccine' Post Filled With Reckless Falsehoods

(Wow, wait to post until the next evening and you're 3 pages behind on this thread!)

 

[swatski]

The top 2 Doctors with the Alliance have more peer reviewed articles in the top medical journals then everyone on this site combined.

I take an issue with your statement, although you had no way of knowing, but please allow me to elaborate.

I just looked it up, and here it is - my current Google Scholar Citation Index - see below.

It indicates, among other things, that all my peer-reviewed journal publications I contributed over the 20+ years have been cited by over 11,000 other publications - in reputable (indexed) journals; I can assure you that is an outstanding record. Your "top 2 docs" are not close.

But let me embellish still; my i10-index and h-index scores are exceedingly high - really, for anyone in the field of biomedical sciences.
Suffice it to say the H-index scores between 15 and 20 are typical for a full professor in a major academic center in the US, and anything above 50 is considered outstanding as in approaching Nobel laureate range; mine is 52.

All that to say I feel comfortable commenting on many of the issues in this thread.




EDIT: By the way, as far as your other comment about me drinking, I take it personally, and I find it very offensive. However, if it matters, I have not actually had a drink in over six years, including tonight.

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[I_squared_r]

A few pages back I saw that someone posted an article from naturalnews.com and I thought to give it a look. Intriguing website. I have an aunt on fb that posts these satire articles.. This 1 is good April 15th, 2021: Vaccines KILL Americans while illegal aliens REPLACE them
and dont forget to check out the "about the author". Quality stuff.

I'm almost positive that I have covid so I went this morning to get the test. I have only small symptoms of fever, dizziness, head ache, and cough. I've been taking vitamin d, c, zinc, echinacea root, and ibuprofen. I'm very active so i'm expecting this to pass quickly.

I have a theory about covid. A lot of people I know that had died/hospitalized weren't healthy and active. I'm talking about, can't walk up a flight of stairs without losing their breath. I was naive to think that covid would bring people to change their lifestyle and focus on their health. I know some people that love to push the vaccine, but are offended when I suggest changing their lifestyle and focusing on their health. I think the later is just as important as the former and we need to do more to promote this.

 

[msavold]

You know, this is a tough one... (but it really shouldn't be)
I've read the whole thread - and it took quite some time., but it's been eye opening. Now I feel that even though this is going to be lengthy, there's so much I need to get off my chest!
The OP's original question was about everyone's experience with the vaccine. (To answer that question first, sore arm the first day, really sore arm the second day, just like any other shot on the third, nothing on the fourth. And a bit of fatigue but all worth it IMO. I'll explain.)

I got a vaccine as soon as I could, to the point of spending the better part of a week at the end of February hunting down an appointment as soon as I met the eligibility criteria. BUT it's not just out of a fear or, as some here might infer, brainwashing that I changed my mind. from waiting to now's fine...

When this first started and there was talk of vaccines, I was very much in the camp of "Uh, I think I'll wait, thanks!". But then we watched an ambulance take our neighbor away. She came back a week later, physically fine but emotionally scarred, by her own admission. And then my cousin's wife went into the hospital with what was surely "a bad cold" - and after 21 days of hell never came out the front door. Last fall the number of people I knew or heard about that were badly affected kept growing. Oh, the effect runs the gamut. My daughter realized that she couldn't smell peanut butter - which she thought was "cool" - and after a few days in bed was back to normal.
So it happens. Different people react differently - no one, and I mean NO ONE can predict which side of the fence you'll be on, especially you.

Day I got there was the second day that they were giving out J&J vaccines. Yep, I had reservations. And they were allayed literally when I got into the car and heard a news report (on NPR, for the record!) that no one had died from COVID.
And I was excited!
Yep, my personal bar is set that f*ing low!

A number of years ago now, I was going along fat, dumb, and happy when a funny tonsil turned from suspected tonsillitis to follicular lymphoma, (a variant of Non Hodgkin's). First tip: anything that ends in 'oma' is not good. Skipping ahead a bit, my doc gave me something called Rituimab - a relatively new (see where I'm going with this?) treatment. In the "pre-rituximab era" my life expectancy was around 7 years. Now, there's no time limit. Tip #2: anything that ends in - mab is a monoclonal antibody, an antibody made by cloning a unique white blood cell. Sounds like voodoo, right - something we should be leery of? Well then, you'd better not read about CAR-T cancer treatment - that shit's out there, way cool, and a life saver. How's this relate to COVID? Personally, seeing its ravages I sure as hell wasn't going to go through a nightmare to beat cancer only to lose the fight to some dumb flu!!!

Oh, I know, odds of it killing me if I get it aren't 100%, far from it. But I buy lottery tickets too.

And then there's the thought of me inadvertently spreading it - to my wife, my kids, my 92 year old mother, my wife's 95 and 99 year old parents. Yeah, I had a lot of reservations but especially when I factored that into the equation, it just made sense. I couldn't live with myself if I'd been responsible for one of them getting sick. That cousin's wife that died? Her son and grandson both tested positive after what turned out to be false negatives. In the meantime, she got sick. How do you think their lives are these days?