Trouble with surge brakes going downhill

[sunbyrned]

Whenever I go to a certain local lake, I have to travel down a fairly steep hill for a good period of time. Always, at the end of that little journey, my brakes are smoking. I'm assuming that's because that trailer is pushing up against me. Do I just need to disengage the brakes before heading down there or is there something wrong with my mechanism? Thanks!

 

[sunbyrned]

Use your vehicle brakes more and engine brake less, that way the surge brakes aren’t engaged as much.

Can you explain more? Sorry! I just use the brake pedal on the vehicle. Are you suggesting to use gears instead of brakes?

 

[Stevenpigsooie]

Disregard. Deleted my comment because it wasn’t accurate.

 

[Julian]

Catch 22.....disabling the brakes means all the boat weight will be on your vehicle brakes. Leaving them enabled means they'll engage down the hill.

 

[sunbyrned]

Catch 22.....disabling the brakes means all the boat weight will be on your vehicle brakes. Leaving them enabled means they'll engage down the hill.

Okay, that helps actually. There’s apparently nothing wrong with the brakes then.Just the circumstances that causes it. I think I’ll disengage next time. Thanks!

 

[Julian]

Okay, that helps actually. There’s apparently nothing wrong with the brakes then.Just the circumstances that causes it. I think I’ll disengage next time. Thanks!

Just be careful....if your vehicle brakes overheat and fade is there space for a runaway vehicle? I'd leave them engaged and take the hill very slowly.

 

[sunbyrned]

Interesting. So what I’ve been doing is tapping the brakes periodically thinking the less brake the better. Are you suggesting to stay on the brakes and go slow down the hill?

 

[Julian]

Interesting. So what I’ve been doing is tapping the brakes periodically thinking the less brake the better. Are you suggesting to stay on the brakes and go slow down the hill?

The challenge is that if the trailer is pushing against the vehicle it will be engaging the brakes. So long hills become a challenge. What is the speed limit and layout (length, turns etc)?

I assumed it wasn't that long of a hill. Speed and friction will create heat. If you go slower I would expect the brakes to heat up less.

I'd prefer the trailer brakes to over heat than risk too much weight on the tow vehicle brakes and them overheating.

 

[sunbyrned]

Gotcha! So the trailer brakes smoking is better than the vehicle brakes smoking. Makes sense. The hill is probably a little less than a mile. 35 MPH, all downhill but the last third is curvy and steep along with the sign that says “this road ends in the water”. What I’ll try next time is to go slow throughout rather than tap my brakes. I think I better understand what’s going on now. Thank you!

 

[Recoveringfiberglassaddic]

So I dont know your tow vehicle and what your sag in the rear is like but surge brakes on a downhill that are riding low will be engaged a lot more than if youve correct ride height/hitch height. Think of a "V". If your hitch point is at the bottom of that "V" then gravity will always win and your brakes will always be engaged, no matter if tapping the brakes, doing one big long braking event, or riding them easy. Trailers always pushing into the bottom of the "V".

Properly bled surge breaks that have a hitch height and tongue height like "----" will allow the pressure in the system to lightly apply brakes when the trailer chases you and resist bottoming out the master to full stroke during harder braking events.

Hopefully this makes sense, and it is also just my experience with surge brakes. I run a BandW hitch(height adjustable) because I tow a lot of different boats with surge brakes and it allows me to adjust for sag/ride height depending on tongue weight. This may not be your problem at all but just threw in my .02, whatever that's worth lol

 

[swatski]

EDIT: just saw this^^^^^ Makes a lot of sense!

Interesting. So what I’ve been doing is tapping the brakes periodically thinking the less brake the better. Are you suggesting to stay on the brakes and go slow down the hill?

That could be the issue, actually. If you brake by tapping the brakes hard, your trailer brakes may tend to engage fully/and lock up. Going slow and braking gradually may be the ticket?
Those surge brakes are not very refined, there is a threshold effect to engage/disengage. Do you feel the trailer brakes cycling between locked/unlocked?

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[swatski]

If the trailer hitch is the answer, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend this one, it's fantastic:

I stopped at a little place called "etrailer" this evening - they are headquartered in Wentzville, MO, which is basically a St. Louis suburb - and picked up a nice little Weigh Safe!
View attachment 73515

Well, this thing it's not exactly little, lol:
View attachment 73516

But it seems to fit like a glove - and I have it exactly where I want it!
View attachment 73518

It does seem to rattle a little bit more than most, but that just seems to be the nature of this beast - w/lots of moving parts, I will need to figure something out to mitigate it.

First impressions - very good, nice quality parts. Will see how it performs, I'll update.

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[Recoveringfiberglassaddic]

If the trailer hitch is the answer, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend this one, it's fantastic:

That is sweet setup. Never seen the gauge built in. Have you nerded out and verified its accuracy on a scale?? What's your take on the gauge?? I'm super intrigued. I weigh an handful of boats a year on the CAT scale and calculate tongue weight, because I'm a nerd like that.

 

[swatski]

That is sweet setup. Never seen the gauge built in. Have you nerded out and verified its accuracy on a scale?? What's your take on the gauge?? I'm super intrigued. I weigh an handful of boats a year on the CAT scale and calculate tongue weight, because I'm a nerd like that.

It's kind of okay from what I have gathered abotu those, but mostly only above certain threshold, my tongue is rather light and the reading would not be accurate.

Not to sound really stupid, but I do believe this is one good way to impart a solid impression you care about safety, which can be important on occasion.

EDIT: apart from the scale, which I think is more for showing off, the hitch is amazing. Solid as they get and smooth, accurate adjustments. Reversible, too.

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[sunbyrned]

So I dont know your tow vehicle and what your sag in the rear is like but surge brakes on a downhill that are riding low will be engaged a lot more than if youve correct ride height/hitch height. Think of a "V". If your hitch point is at the bottom of that "V" then gravity will always win and your brakes will always be engaged, no matter if tapping the brakes, doing one big long braking event, or riding them easy. Trailers always pushing into the bottom of the "V".

Properly bled surge breaks that have a hitch height and tongue height like "----" will allow the pressure in the system to lightly apply brakes when the trailer chases you and resist bottoming out the master to full stroke during harder braking events.

Hopefully this makes sense, and it is also just my experience with surge brakes. I run a BandW hitch(height adjustable) because I tow a lot of different boats with surge brakes and it allows me to adjust for sag/ride height depending on tongue weight. This may not be your problem at all but just threw in my .02, whatever that's worth lol

That’s a GREAT explanation and probably has a lot to do with my issue. I will check that out tomorrow. The hitch I have coming from my vehicle actually comes straight out and then angles down and the top of the ball is even with the hitch itself. When I take the boat off, I almost have to jack the dolly all the way up before it unhitches. I think part of the problem too is that the suspension on the vehicle gives too much, which probably creates that “V” you mentioned. Thanks for helping me figure this out. I bet this is part of my problem.

 

[sunbyrned]

EDIT: just saw this^^^^^ Makes a lot of sense!


That could be the issue, actually. If you brake by tapping the brakes hard, your trailer brakes may tend to engage fully/and lock up. Going slow and braking gradually may be the ticket?
Those surge brakes are not very refined, there is a threshold effect to engage/disengage. Do you feel the trailer brakes cycling between locked/unlocked?

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I don’t feel any resistance from the trailer tires but when I get out and smell the smoke, it’s obvious they’ve been locked up. Anther boater (Yamaha dude by the way) behind me told me they were smoking all the way down the hill so that’s when I knew I finally need to look into this. I saw your hitch suggestion. That looks like the perfect thing for me. It gives a lot of height options. I’ll look into getting one. Thanks!

 

[sunbyrned]

Here’s my hitch that I was trying to describe. It’s low to begin with and putting the boat on brings the entire car down even further. Looking forward to getting this thing fixed properly.

 

[djetok]

Here’s my hitch that I was trying to describe. It’s low to begin with and putting the boat on brings the entire car down even further. Looking forward to getting this thing fixed properly.

Have you tried to turn the hitch over if your sagging. I would turn and get a level on it. You want the tongue level, to put equal weight per tire. This will also help with braking as well. A hitch like @swatski will allow you to make minor adjustments for leveling as well. I looked at those as well with the scale for tongue weight. Going slowly and consistent should help your situation a lot. By keeping the trailer the same speed as the vehicle it will lessen the amount of brakes applied on the trailer. Just level the trailer up and be patient. You definitely do not want to disengage trailer brakes. What are you towing with? It looks like a suv.

 

[sunbyrned]

Have you tried to turn the hitch over if your sagging. I would turn and get a level on it. You want the tongue level, to put equal weight per tire. This will also help with braking as well. A hitch like @swatski will allow you to make minor adjustments for leveling as well. I looked at those as well with the scale for tongue weight. Going slowly and consistent should help your situation a lot. By keeping the trailer the same speed as the vehicle it will lessen the amount of brakes applied on the trailer. Just level the trailer up and be patient. You definitely do not want to disengage trailer brakes. What are you towing with? It looks like a suv.

That’s a brilliant suggestion! I didn’t even think about doing that. It’s a Nissan Armada. It’s a huge vehicle with a lot of power. Just not a 4WD unfortunately.

 

[djetok]

That’s a brilliant suggestion! I didn’t even think about doing that. It’s a Nissan Armada. It’s a huge vehicle with a lot of power. Just not a 4WD unfortunately.

I was mainly trying to get a idea of height of the truck. I pull my 21ft with a f150 . I use a 0 drop hitch, meaning its level coming out of the hitch receiver. I also use a stiffer shock in the rear. A fox 2.0 shock, this helps with sag a lot. I don't know about Nissans shocks but fords are horrible. The fox shock is difficult to compress, the ford shock was so easy. With a 24 footer, I would probably look at something like that as well. It will tighten up the back end a lot, in the f150 it takes the bed hop away.