The Texas School Shooting

[BlkGS]

Well, seeing how the riots of 2020 went down I don’t think magazine limits should be imposed. You had mass rioters who were threatening to kill people, held them captive, burnt down communities, took over city blocks, burnt down police station and caused billions in damages. I went out and bought an AR the day after the riots started (my state requires a permit just to purchase took six months, and I already had that but did have to wait another day for another background check to clear). But again, hammers kill more people than “assault rifles”.

I thought they were all peaceful protests!?

 

[AZMark]

@seanmclean @jcb1977
I'm not trying to be snide and I'm not trying to get into a huge argument on the details of guns because I admittedly don't know a ton. That said, you guys are not being completely honest here. Maybe I've only shot really great ARs and really crappy hunting rifles, but the ARs are a different level of shooting for what they are made for.

ARs were originally designed as weapons for the military for war.
Every one of these shitbag mass shooters is using an AR for a reason.
SWAT teams and other military type organizations use ARs for a reason.
If a gang of 10 evil people start attacking your home and they're at close range, you are grabbing your AR and not your hunting rifle for that tactical situation. If you say otherwise I'm telling you right now that I don't believe you and you're following the NRA script to support an argument.

I don't necessarily think they should be outright banned, but they should be really fucking hard to get, like a silencer or an actual automatic "assault rifle". A disturbed 18 year old with a million red flags should not be able to buy one and go shoot up a school and whatever regulation it takes to do that should be done, in my opinion. I've bought my guns at stores and I've had to do the 3 day wait and I'm sure that they just never ran me and time expired, the current system is a joke.

 

[Beachbummer]

So whats your proposal?

How about a required license that requires training and confirmation of safe and secure place to store? Some way to report red flags that is evaluated and some due process to challenge such adverse evaluation. School teacher/doctor/etc can phone in and say, criminal violent tendencies, hold on selling to this kid for the next X months and review then. Evaluated by professional panel looking to preserve rights but also at likelihood of misuse/illegal use. It's pre-emptive, so that's a problem, but the alternative is what's there now, wait, and then it's to scrape blood of the floor so that's not great either.

What about minimum age to buy? 25 vs 18 might be a reasonable upgrade. Kids can still practice at the range, but can't independently own guns until 25.

I think the harder part of the challenge is that there is inherent absolute distrust from gun owners/enthusiast that any restrictions are a slippery slope towards disarmament, and there's a refusal to entertain reasonable restrictions due to the precedent it sets

Maybe we would benefit from a better "gun owners rights defense group" closer to the mainstream opinion that some additional reasonable controls at a federal level could improve the safety of all citizens.

Very hard problem to solve for sure.

 

[KCAR250]

@seanmclean @jcb1977
I'm not trying to be snide and I'm not trying to get into a huge argument on the details of guns because I admittedly don't know a ton. That said, you guys are not being completely honest here. Maybe I've only shot really great ARs and really crappy hunting rifles, but the ARs are a different level of shooting for what they are made for.

ARs were originally designed as weapons for the military for war.
Every one of these shitbag mass shooters is using an AR for a reason.
SWAT teams and other military type organizations use ARs for a reason.
If a gang of 10 evil people start attacking your home and they're at close range, you are grabbing your AR and not your hunting rifle for that tactical situation. If you say otherwise I'm telling you right now that I don't believe you and you're following the NRA script to support an argument.

I don't necessarily think they should be outright banned, but they should be really fucking hard to get, like a silencer or an actual automatic "assault rifle". A disturbed 18 year old with a million red flags should not be able to buy one and go shoot up a school and whatever regulation it takes to do that should be done, in my opinion. I've bought my guns at stores and I've had to do the 3 day wait and I'm sure that they just never ran me and time expired, the current system is a joke.

Actually the vast majority of “mass shootings” aren’t done with ARs

 

[tabbibus]

I get it. Some of us like guns. I don't own but I think they are pretty cool. But I also think many arguments here are very disingenuous. It's not about winning an argument guys. It's about freaking less kids dying.

 

[jcb1977]

@seanmclean @jcb1977
I'm not trying to be snide and I'm not trying to get into a huge argument on the details of guns because I admittedly don't know a ton. That said, you guys are not being completely honest here. Maybe I've only shot really great ARs and really crappy hunting rifles, but the ARs are a different level of shooting for what they are made for.

ARs were originally designed as weapons for the military for war.
Every one of these shitbag mass shooters is using an AR for a reason.
SWAT teams and other military type organizations use ARs for a reason.
If a gang of 10 evil people start attacking your home and they're at close range, you are grabbing your AR and not your hunting rifle for that tactical situation. If you say otherwise I'm telling you right now that I don't believe you and you're following the NRA script to support an argument.

I don't necessarily think they should be outright banned, but they should be really fucking hard to get, like a silencer or an actual automatic "assault rifle". A disturbed 18 year old with a million red flags should not be able to buy one and go shoot up a school and whatever regulation it takes to do that should be done, in my opinion. I've bought my guns at stores and I've had to do the 3 day wait and I'm sure that they just never ran me and time expired, the current system is a joke.

we can agree to disagree..... handguns and shotguns would be my go to long before I grab a rifle of any kind....why would you want any type of rifle in that situation? Unless you train on a rifle extensively like the special forces in close quaters, your better with a handgun or shotgun. The advantage of rifles is the greater round exit velocity, and long distance accuracy- where is the benefit in a close quarters situation? Personally I find the .223 AR-15's to be relatively useless. The .223 round is a varmint round, used mostly by people for wild boar/coyotes/etc. In many states it's illegal to hunt deer with a .223 cartridge because it's underpowered for that purpose. Will it kill people? Certainly. Is it some super weapon that makes it superior to any other caliber or platform? No way. Would banning AR-15's reduce gun violence? I don't think so.

The .223 AR-15's look like they are military, that's why they are popular and scary to some people...They are nothing more than a glorified varmint rifle with a relatively weak caliber. but they are fun to shoot on a range and ammunition is relatively cheap.

As to easier to shoot/control...maybe it's simply the pistol grip? many people feel like they have more control with a pistol grip vs. traditional gunstock. You can buy a pistol grip stock for just about any hunting rifle and change it out in 30 minutes. Is it the red dot sights? laser sights? pictanny rails? You can get those put on handguns and hunting rifles as well.

If I'm missing any features of the AR-15 that folks think make it some super weapon, I'd love to learn about it.

 

[jcb1977]

@seanmclean @jcb1977
I'm not trying to be snide and I'm not trying to get into a huge argument on the details of guns because I admittedly don't know a ton. That said, you guys are not being completely honest here. Maybe I've only shot really great ARs and really crappy hunting rifles, but the ARs are a different level of shooting for what they are made for.

ARs were originally designed as weapons for the military for war.
Every one of these shitbag mass shooters is using an AR for a reason.
SWAT teams and other military type organizations use ARs for a reason.
If a gang of 10 evil people start attacking your home and they're at close range, you are grabbing your AR and not your hunting rifle for that tactical situation. If you say otherwise I'm telling you right now that I don't believe you and you're following the NRA script to support an argument.

I don't necessarily think they should be outright banned, but they should be really fucking hard to get, like a silencer or an actual automatic "assault rifle". A disturbed 18 year old with a million red flags should not be able to buy one and go shoot up a school and whatever regulation it takes to do that should be done, in my opinion. I've bought my guns at stores and I've had to do the 3 day wait and I'm sure that they just never ran me and time expired, the current system is a joke.

I'm not military so don't know this for certain, but I believe the special forces use AR type weapons capable of three round bursts which classifies it as fully auto so no easily attained by general population. That's a completely different gun than the AR-15's available to the general public.

 

[steveinmd]

I'm not military so don't know this for certain, but I believe the special forces use AR type weapons capable of three round bursts which classifies it as fully auto so no easily attained by general population. That's a completely different gun than the AR-15's available to the general public.

Called select fire. Can do 3 rnd burst or full auto. Full auto would be for laying down suppressive fire. If there is a need to move personnel and you want the enemy to keep their heads down....

 

[AZMark]

So whats your proposal?

How about a required license that requires training and confirmation of safe and secure place to store? Some way to report red flags that is evaluated and some due process to challenge such adverse evaluation. School teacher/doctor/etc can phone in and say, criminal violent tendencies, hold on selling to this kid for the next X months and review then. Evaluated by professional panel looking to preserve rights but also at likelihood of misuse/illegal use. It's pre-emptive, so that's a problem, but the alternative is what's there now, wait, and then it's to scrape blood of the floor so that's not great either.

What about minimum age to buy? 25 vs 18 might be a reasonable upgrade. Kids can still practice at the range, but can't independently own guns until 25.

I think the harder part of the challenge is that there is inherent absolute distrust from gun owners/enthusiast that any restrictions are a slippery slope towards disarmament, and there's a refusal to entertain reasonable restrictions due to the precedent it sets

Maybe we would benefit from a better "gun owners rights defense group" closer to the mainstream opinion that some additional reasonable controls at a federal level could improve the safety of all citizens.

Very hard problem to solve for sure.

I read a while back that the NRA was struggling with the perception that they were already getting too soft and willing to compromise. Might have been around the time of bumpstock thing.

 

[KCAR250]

Trump ended up banning bumpstocks. I tried one in the past and went through $30 in about 5 seconds. Not very accurate either. The thing about gun control is democrats will say things like “common sense laws, extensive background checks, the poor children, and all the other tactics they use. Even if I can agree with some change the democrats will write a 5,000 page bill and never stop going after gun rights. There for I can get on board with anything because democrats will go too far! I mention democrats because they’re the ones that usually want to go after gun rights.

 

[Julian]

Trump ended up banning bumpstocks. I tried one in the past and went through $30 in about 5 seconds. Not very accurate either. The thing about gun control is democrats will say things like “common sense laws, extensive background checks, the poor children, and all the other tactics they use. Even if I can agree with some change the democrats will write a 5,000 page bill and never stop going after gun rights. There for I can get on board with anything because democrats will go too far! I mention democrats because they’re the ones that usually want to go after gun rights.

Please don't go partisan or this thread will be locked.

The reality is many/most other countries don't have this problem because access to guns isn't easy.

For example, my cousin in the UK loves to skeet shoot. His guns lives at the club he is a member of, he can't take it home. He can't own a handgun unless he requires it for his work (security guard etc), and then it lives at work locked up.

As for the comment about if limiting rifle clips would make any difference....it would over a LONG period especially if we required old clips to be turned in etc.

The journey to less killing here will be decades. But every journey starts with the first step. Just because it's long doesn't mean it isn't worth taking.

 

[KCAR250]

Please don't go partisan or this thread will be locked.

The reality is many/most other countries don't have this problem because access to guns isn't easy.

For example, my cousin in the UK loves to skeet shoot. His guns lives at the club he is a member of, he can't take it home. He can't own a handgun unless he requires it for his work (security guard etc), and then it lives at work locked up.

As for the comment about if limiting rifle clips would make any difference....it would over a LONG period especially if we required old clips to be turned in etc.

The journey to less killing here will be decades. But every journey starts with the first step. Just because it's long doesn't mean it isn't worth taking.

You can’t compare the US to the UK. The US has different issues than the UK. If you’re wanting to save lives the the fact is more people are saved by guns than are murdered by guns. That fact comes from the CDC and should be considered. Guns are used 16 to 100 times more to save lives then are used for murder. The other day someone tried to shoot up a party and a women shot him dead with no one else being killed. That won’t be shown on the news though. There’s also countless times a woman is prevented from being rapped because she’s armed where she doesn’t shoot that doesn’t get reported.

Guns aren’t the problem, we have a serious mental health crisis in this country that we’re not dealing with. There’s also other things that can be done to protect schools without attacking gun rights.

As far as partisan goes I was trying to show a point on why even simple things will be hard to get passed. Because there’s a lack of trust between parties. Idk, maybe since people on both sides are passionate about the topic it shouldn’t have even been brought up to begin with.

 

[adrianp89]

The second amendment is partially meant to protect citizens from the government. While we would struggle to uprise against the military, AR-15s and similar guns are needed for this situation. While it’s far fetched, it is a possibility and why it is left open to interpretation. The founding fathers were smarter than anyone here. People don’t realize but there we are only a few steps away from all freedoms being taken away. The constitution can be legally suspended at any moment.

 

[sunbyrned]

The constitution can be legally suspended at any moment.

I’m not aware of this. Are you referring to Marshal Law?

 

[motomandan]

You can’t compare the US to the UK. The US has different issues than the UK. If you’re wanting to save lives the the fact is more people are saved by guns than are murdered by guns. That fact comes from the CDC and should be considered. Guns are used 16 to 100 times more to save lives then are used for murder. The other day someone tried to shoot up a party and a women shot him dead with no one else being killed. That won’t be shown on the news though. There’s also countless times a woman is prevented from being rapped because she’s armed where she doesn’t shoot that doesn’t get reported.

Guns aren’t the problem, we have a serious mental health crisis in this country that we’re not dealing with. There’s also other things that can be done to protect schools without attacking gun rights.

As far as partisan goes I was trying to show a point on why even simple things will be hard to get passed. Because there’s a lack of trust between parties. Idk, maybe since people on both sides are passionate about the topic it shouldn’t have even been brought up to begin with.

Why are mass shootings connected to Gang violence exempted from Mass shooting Data?

 

[AuburnVFR]

We have spent the last 50-60 years destroying the family, marriage, morality, decency, common sense, and reality and you wonder why we have have fucked up people doing fucked up things?

Guns and to some level gun violence has always been a part of America since its founding, but the mass shootings have been a phenomenon of the past 25 years. The guns are the tool of choice, but the societal decay and media publicity are what give birth to and feed the monster. Are you ready to throw away your other constitutional rights...censor press reporting, regulate social media, and lock people away on suspicion of what they might do... or is it just easier to discard the constitution rights you choose not to use?


"ARs were originally designed as weapons for the military for war"...FYI so were bolt action rifles

 

[Julian]

We have spent the last 50-60 years destroying the family, marriage, morality, decency, common sense, and reality and you wonder why we have have fucked up people doing fucked up things?

Guns and to some level gun violence has always been a part of America since its founding, but the mass shootings have been a phenomenon of the past 25 years. The guns are the tool of choice, but the societal decay and media publicity are what give birth to and feed the monster. Are you ready to throw away your other constitutional rights...censor press reporting, regulate social media, and lock people away on suspicion of what they might do or is it just easier to discard the constitution rights you choose not to use?


"ARs were originally designed as weapons for the military for war"...FYI so were bolt action rifles

All the things you mention have gone on everywhere. The easy access and abundance of guns is the only difference the US has with other countries. Oh wait, we also have the highest incarceration rate of the first world...not sure if/how that might play in. No universal Healthcare- that might play a role in helping people with mental health issues. And perhaps the lowest minimum wage (not researched that last point)

 

[AuburnVFR]

I'm not sure where this notion that bad people with guns (and pretty much anything else that can be weaponized) don't do bad things anywhere else came from. It does happen elsewhere, and in countries with much less population and with stringent gun laws, but these events don't hit so close to home.

Nigeria has been rife with armed gangs kidnapping and killing school children for the past 10-15 years.
2011 summer camp massacre in Norway
2011 San Fernando massacre in Mexico, not to mention all the other civilian casualties of the Mexican cartels,
2019 New Zealand mosque massacres
2015 Paris France terrorist attacks
2016 the Nice France truck massacre
I could go on...

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

We have spent the last 50-60 years destroying the family, marriage, morality, decency, common sense, and reality and you wonder why we have have fucked up people doing fucked up things?

 

[seanmclean]

@seanmclean @jcb1977
I'm not trying to be snide and I'm not trying to get into a huge argument on the details of guns because I admittedly don't know a ton. That said, you guys are not being completely honest here. Maybe I've only shot really great ARs and really crappy hunting rifles, but the ARs are a different level of shooting for what they are made for.

I don't disagree that if I were intent on killing as many people as possible, the AR in my safe would generally be the best tool for the job. What you and others seem to not understand is that everything else in there, with the exception of my bolt action .22 and pump shotgun could do the same task with about the same difficulty. The .223/5.56 round that an AR typically fires is pretty limited when you compare what else is readily available in semiautomatic configuration. This boring old hunting rifle can be fitted with a 20 round magazine and the rounds it fires are orders of magnitude more devastating... yet no calls to ban them.

@seanmclean @jcb1977


ARs were originally designed as weapons for the military for war.
Every one of these shitbag mass shooters is using an AR for a reason.
SWAT teams and other military type organizations use ARs for a reason.
If a gang of 10 evil people start attacking your home and they're at close range, you are grabbing your AR and not your hunting rifle for that tactical situation. If you say otherwise I'm telling you right now that I don't believe you and you're following the NRA script to support an argument.

I don't necessarily think they should be outright banned, but they should be really fucking hard to get, like a silencer or an actual automatic "assault rifle". A disturbed 18 year old with a million red flags should not be able to buy one and go shoot up a school and whatever regulation it takes to do that should be done, in my opinion. I've bought my guns at stores and I've had to do the 3 day wait and I'm sure that they just never ran me and time expired, the current system is a joke.

Nearly everything here is objectively untrue or unworkable. Start easy: How would anyone know that this 18 year old was disturbed and should be stripped of his constitutional rights before he did anything wrong? He was never adjudicated to be mentally deficient, or even had a mental health history that has been publicly disclosed, nor was he a criminal. Its obvious now that he should have been fired off into the sun at the earliest opportunity, but how would you have stopped that from happening before he made it known what he was?