Anyone tried the Lucky 13 Perfomance Adjustable Pump Cone in a boat?

[swatski]

I don't think anyone has tried that on a boat yet, but it could be the cure for hole shot cavitation issues. Maybe.

http://www.4-tecperformance.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=207

I was talking to Jerry Gaddis about my prop dial-in efforts, as I'm trying to cure excessive hole shot cavitation after Vtech ECU reflash, and he brought this up...

Here is some more info
http://www.greenhulk.net/forums/showthread.php?t=206969

 

[Noko]

What you need is something like an afterburner nozzle on a jet engine. Something that would adjust the jet pump nozzle with the throttle.

 

[swatski]

What you need is something like an afterburner nozzle on a jet engine. Something that would adjust the jet pump nozzle with the throttle.

Well, I don't think anyone figured that out for jet boats, yet. But this Lucky 13 cone is for real, and not too horribly expensive... Talking to Jerry / Green Hulk, he suggested that as a possible remedy for bringing the RPMs down in addition to repitching. I know for a fact that guys racing jet skis closed course swear by it, it can eliminate cavitation to the point of bogging the engine... Boy, I would love to deal with that kind of problem right now (and still be able to pull some RPMs on top).

I would maybe consider getting one, but only if I have the base impeller figured out... Which may take a while. Wish someone would try it on a boat to see if it works like it does for skis.

 

[Ronnie]

$300 each is not couch change but considering what you already have into your performance mods and that you only have to buy one cone for your boat it seems like a small price to pay especially since you can tune/adjust it as you experiment with your impeller pitch. The worst case being you find it useless for your application and you sell it for a little less than you paid for it to a pwc enthusiast on greenhulk or similar site.

 

[swatski]

$300 each is not couch change but considering what you already have into your performance mods and that you only have to buy one cone for your boat it seems like a small price to pay especially since you can tune/adjust it as you experiment with your impeller pitch. The worst case being you find it useless for your application and you sell it for a little less than you paid for it to a pwc enthusiast on greenhulk or similar site.

@Ronnie Exactly! Couldn't have said it any better, and thank you for providing contextual information on top.

Greenhulk store has not sold one of these for a sport boat yet.

Obviously, not all performance parts that work in skis translate well into boats... But there is only one way to find that out, all empirical.

 

[swatski]

Hey Guys,

I want to post up results for the Lucky 13 (L13) pump cone as I just got one and have done a bit of testing this week.

The basic idea with the L13 pump cone is it uses a gradual taper design with higher volume that increases pump pressure and thrust and increases performance. But the bottom line is this:

Jerry hit a home run with this cone, if you are looking to gain holeshot and top speed I would definitely look into these!

Before I installed one on my modified SX190, my biggest complaint was the fact that it would blaze the prop up badly on hard take off, and it got worse after Stage 2 Vtech ECU reflash... After I installed the L13 with all the spacers I noticed the prop spin is almost gone and the boat just jumps out of the water, and plans a lot quicker.

The L13 works great with the OEM impeller!!! Lost only about 100RPM but run at the same speed or at a slight gain. The pump cone made the boat feel different - the pump feels more "loaded" and the steering seems more responsive.

Here it is - with all the spacers in. It is well engineered and feels solid and heavy duty.


Check the difference in OEM and L13 cone sizes - it is substantial.


The install is pretty strait forward. You do not need to remove the impeller housing and wear ring, just remove the steering nozzle and the factory cone.


Before installing the L13 base, pack it with some good grease or slurry.






You can either bolt the L13 straight up with no spacers, or play with different spacers (along with venturi nozzle diameter and impeller pitch).


You need to remove the L13 cone from its base - held by a single A4-70 Stainless Steel, M8 x 80mm Allen bolt. You also need to move the OEM O-ring, which fits the L13.


The base is angled, this means the narrow side of the cone base sits on the top side of the hub. This way the tip of the cone will point into the center of the venturi nozzle after install.


(Picture distorts it a bit, but the cone is in the center of the venturi nozzle opening.)


If the weather holds, I will do more testing. It is not a “one-size-fit-all” panacea for holeshot cavitation issues. For example, when I ran the L13 pump cone with a Solas Concord 13/19 prop, which gives me the worst hole shot cavitation, the cone did not help much for whatever reason. But, after testing with OEM impeller, it was a different story all together. Next up is the Skat impeller, which I am having repitched in the factory - will report here when I get it back.

I am POSITIVE that after playing with the spacers, exit nozzle size, and prop pitch this boat is going to absolutely rock!

 

[Bruce]

Could you ask Jerry if he would recommend this for stock MR1 engined boats?

Thanks

 

[dan144k]

There are several different aftermarket cones available
For the yamagata 155 pumps. The lucky inside because it is tunable.

I also noticed the wet wolf, looks like lower quality but also lower price.

The cones on our boat are a short and Centered design. Our nozzle on the jet boats is a +3° or 5 degree offset built into the nozzle (part between impeller and exit/reverse gate) The generic picture below shows how aftermarket cones (with offset) are available to assist in keeping thrust centered into the offset nozzle. (part pictured below sells for $90/ marketed as anti cavitation cone from Riva)

Last summer I was looking for zero degree nozzle for my boat. Never found one. Was working on nozzle offset project, listed in another thread. Basically trying to send jet thrust/wash more underwater as it exits the boat.

There are several products which will bolt onto our boats, we just need to test and find what works.

 

[swatski]

@dan144k Thank you for chiming in - I wish we have more performance discussions in here! I am currently finding myself stuck in that juvenile "phase" of "boater development" - figuring out the boat. Trying to make a decision if i really like it!

And also trying to take advantage of this unusually long season!

I posted @Bruce question to Jerry, hope he will chime in, biased as he may be, LOL.

Regarding the cone angle, I'm not sure these are critical to the performance of the cone. I think the L13 can be centered or it can point up some depending on the angle of the venturi nozzle you are using. My understanding is that even if the cone still faces slightly downward, for example with your 5 degree nozzle, it won't hurt a thing.

Basically, the cone is supposed to improve the pump efficiency by reducing internal pump volume. If you go too far (like in too many spacers), you will “stuff” it and bog the engine, basic Bernoulli's principles. I wish I could experience "stuffing" and bog down my engine, but couldn’t get to that point in my testing - not enough spacers?

So, the reasoning is that if one gets the cone volume right, the resulting water pressure and speed is increased and your RPMs will be decreased somewhat (but should not be bogged down to a stall) and that’s kind of where you want to be to start with.

At that point one has to either de-pitch your prop or open up the venturi nozzle opening to get up to the RPMs you want to be running, for example the same as prior to installing the cone. With the cone properly tuned one will experience no cavitation and and also go faster. I believe it is important to get to the target RPMs with as many washers in place as possible as this is the most efficient setup.

In this regard, I may need more spacers for my current setup, but want to wait with that, and the venturi opening, until I test with the Skat prop I'm waiting for...

BTW - that tapered design of the L13 is supposed to be the money (vs other designs), based on the testing the CC racing crowd has done. I have not myself tested it but there is a lot of info out there. With all the BS of performance parts claims, amazingly, some of these mods work.

 

[swatski]

Could you ask Jerry if he would recommend this for stock MR1 engined boats?

Thanks

"The L13 will fit the HO pump no problem there. If the MR1 boat is suffering from cavitation issues on hard launch then most certainly the L13 cone will be a remedy. These cones seems to work extraordinarily well on any jet boat they've been installed on.

I hope that helps!

Jerry"

That from the man himself. And boy, does he have an opinion about the other cones...LOL. But I think he intended to keep it private. LMFAO. He does not think of them highly.


EDIT: I have no relation with Jerry or Green Hulk. The only discounts I ever enjoyed was the usual 10% in his store if you order through the forum, and I got 25% off the cone. I was being a pain though, LOL.

 

[Bruce]

Thanks @swatski! I appreciate your research!

I would like to try to work on squeezing out a few more mph and reducing low end cavitation I the spring. I had hoped to upgrade impellers and pump housings last spring but ran out of time to do so. Based on your research I may have the factory impellers refuebished and try the cones instead of Solas impellers.

Is Jerry aware of this thread? He would be welcome to participate in our forum.

 

[jollyroger]

Thanks @swatski a ton for all your hard work and research. I am following your threads very closely. I have the exact same boat, 2012 SX190. I boat at an elevation of 4,500 on up to 7,200 feet. Look forward to your finished research, as somehow getting more air into the motor seems to be my critical at this type of altitude. Top end does not matter. The holeshot is key to water sport fun.

It appears that the the "ribbon delete" with flame arrestor is a good first step. Not sure from there, but will wait patiently for the results of all your hard work. Thanks again.

 

[swatski]

Thanks @swatski a ton for all your hard work and research. I am following your threads very closely. I have the exact same boat, 2012 SX190. I boat at an elevation of 4,500 on up to 7,200 feet. Look forward to your finished research, as somehow getting more air into the motor seems to be my critical at this type of altitude. Top end does not matter. The holeshot is key to water sport fun.

It appears that the the "ribbon delete" with flame arrestor is a good first step. Not sure from there, but will wait patiently for the results of all your hard work. Thanks again.

I couldn't agree more on the hole shot vs top speed. I'm with you! Unfortunately, the high elevation is where the superchargers shine! But you can do a lot to the 1.8 N/A still, coming close to the stock SC performance, and think of some of the benefits - like no worries about "heat soak", timing chain issues, and insane fuel consumption. I am starting to think that the 190 Yamaha platform is remarkably robust - especially if you only allowed to have one... LOL.

Off topic here, BUT ribbon delete is a MUST DO first step for any 19ft series. Period. As far as the ECU reflash, I will do an ECU on any 1.8l N/A boat I own, because I like throttle response, the torque, and not hitting the rev limiter - the boat simply is funner to ride if you can take it up to 8300 versus 7800. BUT - compared to the ribbon delete in terms of BANG FOR YOUR BUCK, it doesn't stack up too too well! LOL.
And, not to jinx myself here, but never heard of an engine failure due to a "canned" Stage 1-2 reflash from R&D or V-tech.

Check out post #253 by this guy Jarrett - brilliant trick to ribbon delete in VXR, which has the same intake manifold/throttle body configuration as a 190:
http://www.greenhulk.net/forums/showthread.php?t=178947&page=26&p=2091335&viewfull=1#post2091335

 

[swatski]

Thanks @swatski! I appreciate your research!

I would like to try to work on squeezing out a few more mph and reducing low end cavitation I the spring. I had hoped to upgrade impellers and pump housings last spring but ran out of time to do so. Based on your research I may have the factory impellers refuebished and try the cones instead of Solas impellers.

Is Jerry aware of this thread? He would be welcome to participate in our forum.

I think he certainly is aware, albeit I'm sure he would want all of us to move over there to his forum, LOL.

Thinking of the cone, my first impulse was to yell out for a group buy. The swap/install is so easy! You can literally do it on a trailer, no vice required, etc. Heck - if anyone with a single engine is around STL and wants to try out mine - I will meet you at a ramp and we can play with it! Maybe wait until the Spring - but I am completely serious, and would be happy to meet and help.

Here is a problem though..., at least potentially. Taking off the impeller... which is almost inevitable during the dial in process. Just ask @dan144k what can happen when it refuses to come off...

Anyway, once you get the impellers on and off a couple of times, it is a breeze.

 

[dan144k]

On my boat my left or port engine is the unit which has always had cavitation issues. I would reason it is because both pumps rotate the same direction but will load differently because they are mounted on left vs right angle hull intakes on the hull bottom.

Maybe on the twin engine boats only a single lucky 13 would be needed to make the boats run better.

 

[swatski]

On my boat my left or port engine is the unit which has always had cavitation issues. I would reason it is because both pumps rotate the same direction but will load differently because they are mounted on left vs right angle hull intakes on the hull bottom.

Maybe on the twin engine boats only a single lucky 13 would be needed to make the boats run better.

This could work, for the reasons you outlined. That said, in my limited experience with these jet boats, things can be so right or so off when you think you are on the right track... LOL.

They are also kind of pricey, albeit the quality and the materials are very good, and if you consider that is what you pay for a wakeboard rack, it is really not too extravagant. I looked for a used one, but they seem hard to come by and still too expensive for not having your purchase backed up by Jerry.

Do you want to borrow mine?

I am still figuring out the basic impeller setup. Just got my Skat back from Glenn at Skat, looks great. Based on my numbers he decided to repitch it from 12/19 (the original R&D label, and it was really 12/19) to 14/16. He had to weld that new impeller to get the OD to specs, but it is awesome. As tight in the wear ring as can be... (a couple of expressions come to mind, but I will leave them for ski-racers to use...)

I am very anxious to try it out! Of course we are in historic flood here in MO... I will certainly keep the board posted about my progress.

 

[swatski]

Snow? What snow? I just needed to get out for a little cruise!

So, finally got to test the new/repitched 14/16 Skat. Not the best conditions for testing, but good enough. Turns out, it runs at 7600-7700 RPM. I thought it would be a little higher...
This is the prop that out of the box (as a R&D 12/19 Skat) - was running at 7150–7200 RPM.

Great prop, very very smooth. I would think the 14/16 may be the best pitch in Skat for a stock 1.8l engine, given the 7700-7800 rev limiter.

Now, I had very little cavitation with this prop and the L13 cone, I did not test it with a stock cone. With and without all 3 spacers, the only combination I tested, cavitation was almost nonexistent but I lost only about 50 RPM with the spacers, which was surprising. Just goes to show that, with the L13, it's all about water testing and tweaking... Will have to wait for warmer weather to do that, I almost froze messing with all this wet stuff last night. LOL.

Overall, I think I'm making progress, but it's just so slow! I would like to run about 8200-8300 RPM at WOT so will need to depitch the Skat more, 13/16 or lower. Sending it back to Glenn, see what he says. At the same time, I will have the OEM prop tuned up - depitched and spec-ed for OD. Hopefully I can settle with a winner before Spring is upon us!

My plan is to find the best prop/pitch combination, than fine tune the cone with spacers (I think I'm starting to sound seriously repetitive, but I guess such is the nature of the beast, LOL). I am surprised the OEM is still in the running, but with its long blades - it may just be the ticket.

 

[swatski]

I got my impellers back from Glenn at Skat - they look gorgeous!

Hopefully, I'm getting closer to the sweet spot... (and NOT moving away from it, LOL We will see)

Check it out - would you have guessed that is the OEM impeller? (it looks like an aftermarket upgrade! ).
When I spoke with Glenn I asked for it to be totally refurbished, but did not expect to see that:



I can not wait to test it!!! It was depitched by a full 1* on both leading and trailing edge, will see what it does for me in the boat.

Interesting part is, I really don't know what the edge pitches are exactly... With aftermarket Solas (e.g. Concord) or Skats (e.g. Swirl) they engrave the pitch values on the inside of the hub - but not with this OEM.

Not sure why that is, but it is not a standard impeller so it wouldn't really matter anyway. The blades are shaped similar to the Swirl model, but are longer. And the way they flow - you could read any angle you want with your gauge... you really can only compare these OEMs side-by-side or before-and-after, I guess.

Here is the refurbished OEM next to the Skat:


The Skat is now 13/15 (down from 14/16, which started as 12/19...). I am really really curious about the testing results. Ahh, looking out the window... I see snow. It will be a while...

I must say, Glenn does pretty awesome work on these things. It is not exactly cheap, but they are always welded to the exact OD, and just look factory-new.

Here is the invoice:

 

[dan144k]

@ swatski . I know what you mean about the refurbished impellers. When I put the solas impellers in my boat I sent all my dinged up stock impellers to impros and they cleaned them and re-tuned them for me. I have them on my shelf for spares. and take them with me when I travel with the boat. I was thinking about putting them in the boat this summer and seeing how they work compared to the solas units again.

 

[swatski]

@dan144k I know what you mean. I am honestly beginning to think the OEM prop with its longer blades maybe the best of what a boat needs... Almost certain of it for a single engine boat, twins are little less prone to hole shot cavitation, so I am less certain. And with less blade surface, Solas should be the fastest, but I am personally done with Solas in my 190.

Reading ski forums, VXR/VXS share our 1.8l NA engines and OEM props, some consider the prop to be the one to beat. Here is a random excerpt about it from an older thread, must be greenhulk (I had it in my notes), cracks me up:

Firehawk:
"I called Skat tech support were I spoke to Glen. I asked him what prop they recommend for a 2013 VXR with my mods. He said the stock prop is so good that if he sold me a prop it would be a waste of money..."

Huter Boi:
"Glen is a very good and honest man and has done many props for me over 20 years of CC racing. Seriously countless.... He is giving you good advice. Two back to back N/A National Championships (12-13) and 43 Moto Wins (34 on National Tour) on the VXR, with a good deal of testing ( several different aftermarket props and a lot of bending and testing) , and we have had the most success with repitched production prop. He is not giving you bad advice. Yamaha put an excellent stock impeller in the VXR."