Anyone tried the Lucky 13 Perfomance Adjustable Pump Cone in a boat?

[swatski]

Last weekend pulled the boat out and played with the two new impellers, pictured above. Couldn't do any real speed runs, because I didn't want to risk coming too close to any ice patches... I'm running with a new plastic ring, and have the Lucky 13 installed with NO spacers, didn't have time to play with that! Still have some cavitation to deal with... adding spacers will get rid of it, as my previous experience would suggest. But I will not gain much for top RPM or speed (with the same nozzle).

Basically, after all the repitching I gained back the RPMs, which is great:

1. Skat repitched to 13/15 by Glenn at Skat, max 8150-8200
2. OEM repitched 1* lower leading 1* lower trailing (also by Glenn), max 8050-8100

I'm hitting a speed wall of sorts, pretty much the same with either prop - in my short runs I was running up 43-44mph, hitting 45 couple times...
Not too worried about it as my boat is NOT set up for speed right now, dirty hull, rip in keelshield, etc - cost me few mph for sure.

Now, to put it in perspective:

My best speed with this set up is 48.3mph with Solas Concord 13/19; not bad for a N/A 190 but that prop cavitates badly on hole shot; can not cure it with L13 and I tried...

My best overall results so far (consistent speeds of 45-46mph and minimum cavitation) are with the unmodified OEM (6CW-01, factory pitch supposedly 13.5/15.9, OD 154.6mm); that prop is also the roughest riding of the bunch by a long shot... go figure...

The new Skat 13/15 will be tested and tweaked with the L13 cone with the spacers, I really want to make it work because I like the way it feels. We will see. I have the RPMs to play with, so it may work.

 

[dan144k]

I am gonna have to order one of those lucky cones for my boat. Probably gonna try and do just the port side 1st, it always seams to cavitate easier, and really screws up the surfing wave.

 

[swatski]

The L13 does give you something to play with:

- first the spacers, which are trivial to swap around

- then the venturi nozzle opening - supposedly fairly strait forward to regrind to a 1-2mm larger diameter with a flap wheel sander:
(I have not tried the latter, yet, but plan on it; and our clunky stock venturi nozzles have more than enough meat to sustain the grind! and a $150 mistake if you go too far...LOL)



- and then of course a repitch if necessary...


That said, I have been surprised how capable the stock props are, as compared to aftermarket upgrades.
As I'm sure you know, the stock OEM specs for your boat (AR/SX 240/242Ltd/S, MY10-current 24’) would be:

6AP-01 Port 13.4/18.2
6AP-10 Starboard 14.2/15.5

(OD 154.6mm)
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[swatski]

So, swapping the props for testing I ran into a problem one day trying to pull a newly refurbished OEM impeller off the shaft. The OEM material is pretty soft, and I was going nowhere quickly - rounding the edges of its shaft with my huge crescent wrench... not good!

Fortunately, I found a pretty cool prop tool. See the pics below. Found it in the corner of one of my local HD stores, it was out of place, open package, and on sale for $9.98. I just stumbled upon it! Serendipity, I guess.

It works like a charm - you can adjust the size somewhat with the insert, as pictured. This is NOT a precision tool, but neither are our OEM impellers. In fact, one of the issues are somewhat loose specs on the shaft - which in my experience fits somewhere in the 26-27mm socket... No problem getting this "adjustable" socket wrench to fit tight! And it is a six point, sort of, so the risk of stripping the shaft is alleviated.

Just thought I would share - it really comes in handy if you are dealing with a stubborn OEM impeller. Needless to say, a cheater bar/pipe/whatever one wants to use fits rather nicely over the strait arm. (I use a 8ft arm off of an old engine hoist)

My OEM impeller has been refurbished twice, and the neck/shaft slimmed down a bit... not good for getting a grip:



New tool to the rescue:




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[swatski]

So, I'm in the process of dialing-in the L13. Love this thing, has helped with out-the-hole cavitation a lot, which is particularly bad in single engine boats.

Here are two short clips - the first was shot a couple of month ago, before I started messing with the cone. The second is last night, after I have the cone pretty close to being dialed-in. Of course this is not a perfect comparison.

The important part is just the first few seconds of both clips.

Most notable, the difference in the duration of cavitation during the first 5-7sec of out-the-hole shot, before (first clip) and after (second clip) L13 installation and tuning. In both cases the operation of the throttle was the same - WOT from a complete stop.

The difference is amazing. You will see in the second clip - cavitation is essentially gone! There is like a fraction of a second spike in RPM, but even that is not hitting the limiter.

Here you go, before:

And after:

And here are some more details about the process.

1. As a part of the process, I have opened up the venturi, in stages. Went from 85mm (stock) to 87mm, 88mm, and now 89.5mm, The best was 88mm. I knew I will probably have to go past the point of no return to find out where it was, and I have a new venturi ordered.
Basically, at 88mm and beyond I have essentially no cavitation, but am not gaining more RPM, and loosing a bit of top speed. Obviously, can not go back, hence the need for a new venturi. This is with all spacers in.



And yes, I did try different impellers and impeller pitches, tried it to death, explored the whole range from 7200 to 8400RPM max (afforded by the ECU reflash). Settled now on 7700RPM max (with a brand new OEM impeller of all things... but that is a different story).

2. As an interesting aside, I have noticed a subtle but fairly distinct change in sound. It is more "throaty", I kind of like it.

 

[buckbuck]

Those two videos did show a difference. Do you think you had all outside variables about the same?

 

[swatski]

@buckbuck These were not back-to-back runs, and there were more than one variable. I am still fine tuning it. That said, the way the L13 cone works is not subtle to me.
Not to sound weird, but it feels almost "digital", or bi-modal. There is some fine tuning with it, but it is more about getting it in the zone, and than it just kind of works.
In this context, the first clip is an example of what my boat did when WOT from a stop, and that was similar with many different configurations of impellers etc. - that wha-wha-wha-wha spinning the wheels sound going on for 5-7 sec when the engine hits the rev limiter. That just goes away with the cone when it is set up right.

Based on my experience, boring the venturi nozzle is not necessary to get the L13 to work. But it does help.
Changing spacers is really easy, BTW - one can do it through the venturi opening with the gate up, no need to even take the nozzle off... I just found that out last week...

 

[bronze_10]

@swatski I have followed your post from day one. The detail and extent u were willing to go through to find the answers is amazing.. although I know u did this for your benefit, thank you for documenting it so completely that everyone can benefit!

 

[swatski]

Those two videos did show a difference. Do you think you had all outside variables about the same?

Okay, @buckbuck, not to give you half-assed answers, I went to the ramp earlier today, took my toolbox along. LOL.
I did a test run with the current set up, all 3 spacers in, pulled out, took one spacer out, tested, pulled out, took all 3 out, tested, pulled out, put all 3 back in, and re-tested. Super easy as there was nobody at the ramp, so I was just in and out of the water.

I have to say, the way this guy Jerry designed the L13 cone is very clever - the base stays on the pump, and you can take off the cone and swap the spacers through the venturi/streering nozzle opening, it is just one allen bolt. It takes quite literally 5min or less to do it.

The results are very clear, very similar to what I posted in video clips, and these are back-to-back runs, all within minutes of each other, so there is little variation other than the spacers.
1. The boat goes wha-wha-wha in WOT from a stop with no spacers.
(Not much different than with the stock cone, actually. )
2. When I put all the spacers in - the wha-wha-wha is gone. Its magic .

(With one spacer off - it is similar to all in, splitting hair here, but there does seem to be a threshold effect to this).

Now, I still need to run the above tests with a loaded boat. That will be the ultimate test - when I load and fill my 1,800lbs of ballast bags and take it to task.
I will do it in the next few weeks, and will report back. I'm actually quite curious!

 

[dan144k]

@swatski
Did you ever do any testing with no cone and zero washers? Just the stem mounted on the pump

 

[CDENsomnia]

Seriously, the amount of testing you are doing is crazy good! I am impressed you have stuck with it getting the impellers re-pitched and such. Keep the info coming. I would love to get the cavitation solved on my AR240. I don't need any additional performance based on how we use the boat but ever since I had a Yamaha GP1200 ski, cavitation just drives me up a wall!

 

[swatski]

@swatski
Did you ever do any testing with no cone and zero washers? Just the stem mounted on the pump

Hmmm..., I did not think of it. But now that you asked - I will. (I so hope you are not just messing with me, that would be too easy! LOL). I have learned not to guess with these things, but it will probably cavitate at least as much as a stock cone.

In the meantime, I also got more spacers from Jerry / Greenhulk (to test them with my over-bored venturi).


(I only did a little bit of testing, with the impeller I already had in the pump, my "speed" impeller, which is an OEM repitched for higher RPMs.)

So, the new observation is that adding more spacers does overcome a nozzle that is slightly too large. That is exactly what the man (Jerry) said.
So yes, trying a thicker stack of washers works very well with over-sized nozzle. But of course, one can not keep playing this game for too long, as one quickly runs into another limit. This time: the bolt length (holding the cone plus spacers).

After that it will be the difference between the venturi and the steering nozzles, which if too small makes steering too stiff.

More to come...

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[swatski]

@swatski
Did you ever do any testing with no cone and zero washers? Just the stem mounted on the pump

@dan144k So - finally - I did it. Not because you asked, or because I wanted to. Rather, messing with the cone/spacers at the dock I dropped the bolt (that holds the last part of the cone and spacers) .

I was with my daughters, and figured I can kill two birds with one stone - give them a promised ride and at the same time see how we are doing with the base cone only (well, without the conical part of the cone - please keep in mind I still have a stem/base mounted, NOT running without a cone). The results were predictable - lots of cavitation, probably worse than the OEM cone. Done with it.

I ended up sourcing a new bolt from a local supplier. I did email Jerry / Greenhulk store first, and that is what he suggested to do. He responds to all inquiries almost immediately, what a service. I found it in a store called Fastenal.

Unless there are more things you guys want me to test, I think I'm done with this thread. The bottom line is - get the L13, you are going to love it.

It is very effective in suppressing cavitation. Works well even with unmodified OEM venturi. In addition, it is a great tool for fine tuning your RPMs. Add/remove a spacer (you can do it on the water, just lift the reverse gate for access, and don't drop anything...) - adjusts RPMs in small increments. If I was running with two pumps and wanted them totally synced up - hard to think of a better tool.
Cheers!

 

[dan144k]

@swatski
Very cool, thanks for all the research and information.

 

[njmr2fan]

Thank you @swatski for all the work and time logging and reporting your data and findings.

 

[Mainah]

@swatski The hole shot benefits are clear. Was is the top end speed delta between stock and the l13 without ecu reprogramming?

 

[swatski]

Thank you @swatski for all the work and time logging and reporting your data and findings.

@njmr2fan My pleasure, and thanks for reminding me to update. Long story short, I have put some effort into tuning the pump with the L13, used 3 venturi nozzles in the process, too... (because once you bore them out... it is hard to go back ).

I find the cone to work as advertised. It is a MAJOR help with cavitation reduction/elimination - it is almost unreal when you test side by side. You still have to make sure your pump is sealed - if it is sucking air from outside there is not a cure for that.

Here is what I would recommend for anyone who might consider it. The best settings for the L13 equipped pump of any 190 boat (and any 1.8l N/A engine in general) are (IMHO of course) :
1. OEM impeller
2. L13 cone stacked with 12mm of rings (which would equal e.g. a combination of 3 - red, blue, and gold)
3. OEM venturi (85mm stock) bored out to 88mm

That setup seems to give the best combination of hole shot, pulling power, and top speed (in my testing). The OEM impeller will spin at about 7700RPM with this setup, which is about perfect. Virtually no cavitation on hole shot, and I mean - you go WOT from a complete stop and the boat just pulls with no "wha-wha" sound. It is simply exhilarating.

Of note, I tested both factory and V-tech Maptuner reflash Stage 1 and Stage 2 ECU tunes, you will get some wonderful boost with the reflash, but the best L13 settings don't seem to change from the above. I tested different impeller models and pitches - with Vtech reflash I can spin them as fast as 8300 before hitting the rev limiter. The bottom line - one can get better top speeds. But - if you really push for it, it takes a while to get to the top with A LOT of cavitation on hole shot (that L13 can not cure) and prop slip so not really worth it (for me).

Regarding the venturi bore - I tested various opening sizes all the way up to 91.5mm, at which point there is not much "meat" left on the nozzle. You get epic hole shot (but it needs more L13 spacers, too) however the top speed suffers significantly, so - not ideal. I might use that kind of setup for wakesurfing with a ton of ballast, but that is a different story.

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[swatski]

@swatski The hole shit benfuts are clear. Was is the top end speed delta between stock and the l13 without ecu reprogramming?

You can get better top speed with the L13, but it is not designed specifically for that. The thing is, you get the same top speed at lower RPM (while you get better hole shot), then you pitch the impeller lower to get the RPMs back up again where you want it - at which point you are gaining speed.

 

[Mainah]

@swatski - Just figured out that I got stuck with a CARB 4star boat (2016 242 ls). Has not ever seen 48mph or greater even with ideal conditions. With twin 1.8l with cats and o2 sensors what would be my best dollar option to increase top end speed? My rpms currently top out around 7.4k and i have about 12 hours on the engines.

Sorry for making you the victim of all of your testing but if I do anything I will also post results. TIA

 

[swatski]

@swatski - Just figured out that I got stuck with a CARB 4star boat (2016 242 ls). Has not ever seen 48mph or greater even with ideal conditions. With twin 1.8l with cats and o2 sensors what would be my best dollar option to increase top end speed? My rpms currently top out around 7.4k and i have about 12 hours on the engines.

Sorry for making you the victim of all of your testing but if I do anything I will also post results. TIA

That's a tough one. Maybe... need to wait until your warranty is gone, then rip out the cats and ribbons...?
Ribbon delete/intake upgrade is actually fairly easy on 1.8l N/A, in all seriousness. It is reversible, subject to the same factory rev limiter, and you gain about 200RPM in a normal 1.8. But I don't know if other CARB features/restrictions would become limiting (and nullify any potential gains from an intake upgrade).

Reflash/ECU tuning will not give you much top speed in a N/A 1.8 (the "HO"), as these are already highly tuned from the factory. With very high compression ratio (something like 11.1) the HO offers little that you can do with it on the top end...
(by comparison, SHOs are under tuned with a compression ration of 8.5 or so, and a lot of extra performance that can be added; keep in mind - with a supercharged engine, but not N/A, anytime you increase RPMs you increase boost and power)

I also think these Yammies hit a virtual wall at around 50mph and it becomes utterly impractical to keep pushing, I think. The hulls are fantastic in handling chop (you can have 19 ft FSH boats that go offshore for god's sake) but it comes at a price - it is just not built for speed. (pleeeeese do not tell @Speedling! )

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