Final Word on Ethanol & Boats!?!?

[PEARCE]

I'm starting to see more stations in the areas that I frequent have the E0 gas option. The Walmart closest to where I live that has a Murphy gas station attached just recently got a major renovation and added pumps devoted to E0 fuel. I stopped on Sunday to fill up my wife's car and E10 regular was $2.59 and E0 was $2.97. The lake I boat on regularly has E0 fuel available for a while on the Oklahoma side. Recently, marinas on the Texas side have started switching over to E0 fuel to help fulfill the desire of the smart boater. There are more large, older boats on our lake then newer ones and they run better without ethanol and they tend to sit longer periods of time with fuel sitting in there large tanks. We stopped at a Texas marina on Sunday in the Yamaha on a scouting mission for E0 fuel since I had heard they had started selling it and sure enough they do. It's midgrade 89 octane and it was $3.59 a gallon on Sunday. The cheapest gas on the lake!

 

[Julian]

marinas on the Texas side have started switching over to E0 fuel to help fulfill the desire of the smart boater

Us dumb boaters will take the 40 cents a gallon and spend it on beer so we get dumber.

 

[Weeb]

I use this site to find stations on my route to whatever lake I'm going to. I've found it to be pretty accurate for the stations in my neck of the woods.

https://www.pure-gas.org/

I use that site also for the boat and my 68 GTO. NC has a bunch of stations when I lived in Massachusetts they had none.

 

[gmtech16450yz]

I love corn .

 

[NickF]

Has anyone inquired to Yamaha about what their recommendation is, I know someone posted what the manual says, but asking if someone might of asked at one of the Yamaha "show off the new boat" events??

 

[JDinfla]

I fill out boat with rec 90 at any Wawa in Florida.

 

[JDinfla]

Maybe rec 89.

 

[Midnight2V]

Ethanol laced gasoline is a complete and total scam designed to give the appearance of "greening up" gasoline by adding a supposedly renewable resource to the gasoline.

I wont get into the long math, but here is the main problem...ethanol burns slower and cooler than gasoline even when homogenenously mixed in the fuel. It also has 2/3 the energy density of gasoline. What all that means is that ethanol adds virtually no energy to the reciprocating engine parts in a fuel composed of mostly gasoline. This is especially prevalent at high RPM. That's why dynomometers consistently prove you lose ten percent of your power going from E0 to E10. Thats also why most individuals see AT LEAST a 5% drop in fuel efficiency. It serves as combustible filler and nothing more.

Another problem is that E10 gasohol is not actually greener than pure gasoline because it has more pollutants than straight gasoline. This is due to secondary reactions that occur after the main combustion event. Just because alcohol burns cleaner on it's own, does not mean it can lower emmissions in combination with gasoline.

Ethanol laced gas is a complete failure of a product on all fronts. It did none of the things it was supposed to do and it was a known failure before it was ever put on the market. It has had disastrous impacts on multiple markets. It took government funded bribes and strong arm, back door, political blackmail to local governments, farmers, and refineries to get it into circulation.

Even though refinery government subsidies ended years ago, and ethanol laced gasoline is a failed product that is actually more expensive than straight gasoline to produce, it continues to propped up on the market for two reasons
1) refineries now have a cheap and easy means of raising octane in gasoline since the octane rating of ethanol is 120 2) the loss of still continuing ethanol farming subsidies would be disasterous to whichever political party tried to pull them from what has become a large, widespread, swing voting bloc that could potentially decide presidential elections.

Collateral damage from this scam has included many things. Increased prices of all produce due to farmers switching to growing corn not for consumption. Faster soil depletion due to corn being repeatedly grown season after season. Increased air pollution. Increased yet hidden costs to consumers due to taxpayers paying for the farming subsidies funded by the federal government.

 

[gmtech16450yz]

^^^ Lol.

Corn is good.

Ignorance is bad.

There's a whole lot of ignorance when it comes to Ethanol.


That being said, I do realize the title of this thread is about Ethanol and BOATS. I run E85 in almost all of my vehicles, have for more than a decade. Ethanol is the greatest thing to happen to performance vehicles and engines in general. "Dynomometers consistently prove" that running E85 in an engine like an LSA or LS9 is good for an easy 75hp to 100hp over pump gas. Fact.

I DO NOT run E85 in my boat though.

edit- midnight2v- I just read your signature. IF I had your boat, I ABSOLUTELY would be running full E85 in it. But I wouldn't be running it on a Riva tune.

 

[Midnight2V]

^^^ Lol.

Corn is good.

Ignorance is bad.

There's a whole lot of ignorance when it comes to Ethanol.


That being said, I do realize the title of this thread is about Ethanol and BOATS. I run E85 in almost all of my vehicles, have for more than a decade. Ethanol is the greatest thing to happen to performance vehicles and engines in general. "Dynomometers consistently prove" that running E85 in an engine like an LSA or LS9 is good for an easy 75hp to 100hp over pump gas. Fact.

I DO NOT run E85 in my boat though.

edit- midnight2v- I just read your signature. IF I had your boat, I ABSOLUTELY would be running full E85 in it. But I wouldn't be running it on a Riva tune.

Ignorance is bad, but there was none in my post.

E85 is not E10, they are two entirely different fuels that simply happen to have common ingredients. I have no problems at all with E85 and occasionally run it in my Mustang (2014 GT). I might even know a thing or two about it.

E85 is a great RACE fuel based on price to performance ratio. My personal opinion is that it is nothing special as far as a conventional automotive fuel with its benefits and drawbacks being a wash at best with current automotive technology. Maybe that will change in the future.

E10 does in fact lose 10% power on a dyno. Your comparison of gasoline to E85 is absolutely irrelevant. When gasoline is the supermajority fuel component, ethanol does not contribute power, the reaction rates are too different. If you know anything about the ideal ignition timing differences for these fuels you understand why.

I said nothing negative about ethanol in general, I was specific in my comments to gasohol E10. The vast majority of ethanol produced for fuel is added to gasoline, not for E85.

The reason e85, despite having only 2/3 the energy density, can get better results on a dyno is its extreme resistance to detonation. This gives it a huge advantage with extreme advanced ignition timing to overcome it's slow burn rate and low burn temp. Another advantage to E85 is that running lean leads to power loss, but not detonation. Basically means you can go way past stoich or run out of pump/injector without blowing your engine.

Even though E85 can make the same or more power than gas for a given displacement engine, you need at least 10% more fuel flow. To go beyond what gas can produce is simple math at that point.

There are MANY weaknesses with e85, and the reasons I do not run it in my boat are fairly simple.
1. You will eventually have fuel problems and water absorption if you don't use all the fuel prior to storage, that is not feasible in my situation.
2. Our boats already have pretty poor range, using E85 would reduce it even further.
3. If you don't occasionally run gas to properly lubricate the fuel system, it will fail.
4. Our boats don't have knock sensors or fuel content sensors, so I would have to run straight e85 or straight gas with the right tune, otherwise my boat would run like straight $#!+. Too much hassle.
5. Finding E85 on the water is similar to finding a unicorn.

As to why I use a Riva Tune, as a customer they have met all my needs and exceeded my expectations with fantastic products, service, and zero problems. What more could I ask for?

 

[gmtech16450yz]

Lolz.

You said it all at "...my Mustang". hahaha.

Have a nice day.

 

[Julian]

First of all I'm not an expert on the alcohol in gas debate, but I find it hard to understand how one side says E85 is like rocket fuel, and one side says E10 kills your power. I would think that alcohol in general would have the same power producing ability regardless of the ratio it is mixed at? Now power is only one aspect of the discussion. I can also see that alcohol might produce more power, but require more of it to do so...thus mileage per gallon goes down? Perhaps this is where things are getting mixed up/confusing?

My understanding is we introduced alcohol to reduce our ever growing dependence on foreign oil (arab countries). Since it is in much of what we consume now, hard to argue that we haven't succeeded in that regard-unless it takes more than a gallon of E10 to make a gallon of E10?

 

[seanmclean]

The final word is this: If you have a modern engine, E10 is fine. Full stop. Add Stabil for the winter, if applicable (for E0 or E10).

 

[Jgorm]

problems at all with E85 and occasionally run it in my Mustang (2014 GT). I might even know a thing or two about it.

E85 is a great RACE fuel based on price to performance ratio. My personal opinion is that it is nothing special as far as a conventional automotive fuel with its benefits and drawbacks being a wash at best with current automotive technology. Maybe that will change in the future.

E10 does in fact lose 10% power on a dyno. Your comparison of gasoline to E85 is absolutely irrelevant. When gasoline is the supermajority fuel component, ethanol does not contribute power, the reaction rates are too different. If you know anything about the ideal ignition timing differences for these fuels you understand why.

I said nothing negative about ethanol in general, I was specific in my comments to gasohol E10. The vast majority of ethanol produced for fuel is added to gasoline, not for E85.

The reason e85, despite having only 2/3 the energy density, can get better results on a dyno is its extreme resistance to detonation. This gives it a huge advantage with extreme advanced ignition timing to overcome it's slow burn rate and low burn temp. Another advantage to E85 is that running lean leads to power loss, but not detonation. Basically means you can go way past stoich or run out of pump/injector without blowing your engine.

Even though E85 can make the same or more power than gas for a given displacement engine, you need at least 10% more fuel flow. No 33%, go beyond what gas can produce is simple math at that point.

There are MANY weaknesses with e85, and the reasons I do not run it in my boat are fairly simple.
1. You will eventually have fuel problems and water absorption if you don't use all the fuel prior to storage, that is not feasible in my situation.
2. Our boats already have pretty poor range, using E85 would reduce it even further.
3. If you don't occasionally run gas to properly lubricate the fuel system, it will fail.
4. Our boats don't have knock sensors or fuel content sensors, so I would have to run straight e85 or straight gas with the right tune, otherwise my boat would run like straight $#!+. Too much hassle.
5. Finding E85 on the water is similar to finding a unicorn.

As to why I use a Riva Tune, as a customer they have met all my needs and exceeded my expectations with fantastic products, service, and zero problems. What more could I ask for?

Incorrect statements in red. I'd avoid believing what you read on mustang forums.

 

[SamCF]

These are built and tuned to be safe running 10% ethanol. I did extensive testing on all fuel types available to me, and my stock 192 ran best on 87 octane with 10% ethanol. Again, Yamaha built the entire fuel system and tuned the boat knowing these would run on ethanol fuel. If there was a problem, I'm sure it would have made it to the forums by now.

As for power, these boats are tuned to be safe on E10. They run the same tune with no correction based on fuel type. That means non ethanol is going to run slightly rich. This could cause poor fuel mileage, fouling spark plugs, and loss of power.

I still run ethanol fuel, but only run 93 octane with my mods.

The other side of this argument is storage. I agree that E10 is more likely to have issues being stored for long periods of time. ANY fuel should be treated with fuel stabilizer before storage. If treated properly, there should be no issues with either fuel.

I do remember a thread a while back where someone had bought a used boat that was running rough. I believe it turned out to be bad fuel. He changed the plugs, poured in some fuel treatment and drove that tank of fuel out. No problems after that.

The best fuel advice I have heard is to only purchase fuel at high volume filling stations. Start with fresh quality fuel, use a fuel stabilizer and don't worry about it.

 

[Midnight2V]

Lolz.

You said it all at "...my Mustang". hahaha.

Have a nice day.

Glad to know you had something of substance to add.

First of all I'm not an expert on the alcohol in gas debate, but I find it hard to understand how one side says E85 is like rocket fuel, and one side says E10 kills your power. I would think that alcohol in general would have the same power producing ability regardless of the ratio it is mixed at? Now power is only one aspect of the discussion. I can also see that alcohol might produce more power, but require more of it to do so...thus mileage per gallon goes down? Perhaps this is where things are getting mixed up/confusing?

My understanding is we introduced alcohol to reduce our ever growing dependence on foreign oil (arab countries). Since it is in much of what we consume now, hard to argue that we haven't succeeded in that regard-unless it takes more than a gallon of E10 to make a gallon of E10?

Julian, you ask a good question. The answer is that although gasoline and alcohol and both combust, they do so at different rates of reaction, with different ideal conditions extracting the maximum amount of energy from a internal combustion event. There are lots of other factors such as compression, air temp, rpm,etc. But ignition timing is the single biggest reason why E10 isn't a solution.

Ignition timing is all about the combustion event occurring at the correct moment so that after combustion occurs, the heat expands the gases, which push the piston down during the power stroke. To early and you oppose the piston motion, too late and you miss your window. It's kind of like pushing your kid on a playground carousel.

Ethanol requires far more ignition advance than gasoline to properly harness the energy in an internal combustion event. That means you ignite the fuel earlier in the crank cycle so that by the time it has combusted and is expanding due to the heat, it lines up with the sequence of pushing the piston while it moves down, transferring torque to the crankshaft. Its ideal timing is beyond the useable range for gasoline.

Simply mixing the two fuels does not average the reaction rates. If you ignited gas at ethanol's ideal time, the gasoline would combust and expand gases in opposition to the piston movement. The mild version is knock, the extreme version is pre-detonation. This can destroy an engine.

If you have a alcohol supermajority such as e85 it's not a big deal, the alcohol combustion products act as a heat sink buffer to prevent predetonation in the gasoline reaction. But in a gasoline supermajority fuel such as e10 it is extremely detrimental and there is not enough buffer, you have to use a gasoline based ignition map that can have a VERY small bump, most tuners wouldn't even bother. Because of the ignition timing requirements of gasoline, by the time alcohol has combusted compared to gas, it's too little too late, Gasoline has done all the work, the piston is no longer in the proper position to receive work from the ethanol.

 

[gmtech16450yz]

Nice. I knew logic, reasoning and actual real knowledge would prevail! lol. Sorry I had to bring out the Mustang card, but it looks like my point was understood.

SamCF, dead on! You are 100% correct in what you posted. The important part you brought up is some (many) modern engines actually run WORSE on E0 than E10. I know this not because I read it on the internet, but because I've seen the calibration files with my own eyes. Engine calibration files usually have a Stoich table, even if they aren't flex fuel vehicles. This value sets what the ECM uses in hundreds of different fueling tables as it's stoichometric value. In newer vehicles, this value is actually SET TO THE STOICH FOR E10. Here's the table from an older LS engine. 0% alcohol is 14.67, standard stoich value for gasoline.




The following screen shot is from an engine calibration for a 2017 vehicle. It's set to 14.08, which just happens to be the stoich value for E10. Run straight gasoline in this engine and it will run worse. Fact.




midnight, sorry dude but the more big words you use, the more inaccurate your message is becoming. ("virtually no energy to the reciprocating engine parts") hahahahaha. We get it that you don't like E10. lol. If you have a problem with the politics of Ethanol, that's a whole 'nuther subject. Don't confuse the two. If you're passionate about the politics and believe Ethanol is bad POLITICALLY, you'll be able to find plenty of ammunition on the web to "prove" E10 is the devils fuel. That doesn't mean it is.

 

[the MfM]

You all figur d out if my boats gunna implode if I don’t stop running E10 yet?

 

[Midnight2V]

Perhaps my voicing of some politics was inappropriate, and for that I apologize. I'll keep that off this site from here forward.

Politics aside, I'm sorry for using "big" words. That's just who I am, I always try to be as accurate as I can given my career choices and the hobbies I pursue. I'm not trying to talk over anyone. If you think that my statements are amusing, enjoy the entertainment. But if you think the term "reciprocating parts" is too big a term, sorry, I can't bridge that gap.

I dont appreciate when my words are distorted or taken out of context to imply I am giving bad information. E10 is not the devil's fuel, it's a fuel that is simply inferior to E0. The manner in which it was brought to market was shady, and the best interests of the consumers were completely ignored.

You guys are talking about custom tuning, which is great, except you were comparing my information about original production equipment to your custom tuned information without providing the proper context and then saying I'm wrong...not very cool. Maybe I was oblivious, but I never saw any thing about custom tuning brought up in this thread.

Jgorm, when I say that ethanol is a slower burn rate and lower burn temp than gasoline, explain how that is inaccurate?

Please explain how a production automobile that is production tuned for e0 losing 10% on e10 gas is inaccurate. I'm not talking about a race tuned vehicle where you can skirt warranty, skip bad gas padding, engineering safety factors, and ignore EPA emissions concerns. I'm talking about original production ecu programming for e0, and then running on e10. Ive seen it on dynos, and I've seen it at the track in et's and trap speeds. That is the condition for millions of older cars still on the road today.

Jgorm, while you need additional fuel flow for e85 to make the SAME power, the additional amount depends entirely on how aggressive or conservative the original factory gas tune was, and how aggressive the E85 tune you use is as well. You might need 33% more, you might need less, especially depending on stock timing, compression, and stock programmed AFR...hence my statement of AT LEAST 10%. In a fully tuned gasoline vs e85 comparison, yes, you need 33 percent more flow. I guess my assumption that the statement I made regarding ethanol being 2/3 the energy density would be noticed was incorrect.

Gmtech16450yz, as to the statement that a vehicle tuned for e10 will have a different stoich, and run worse on E0 - congratulations, water is wet. Yes they have different stoichs, and when you run any fuel on a tune designed for a different fuel it will not be ideal. Manufacturers had to change stoichs when they realized the majority of available gasoline was not what the engine was programmed for. Take the same vehicle and properly tune it for both E10 and E0 and then use the correct fuel, and guess which comes out on top. Fact.

It's TRUE, modern flex fuel vehicles can monitor combinations of e85 or gas and use different stoich based on the fuel content. It's been that way for years. It doesn't change the fact that when E10 was forced into use, vehicles on the road weren't equipped to use it, and neither were manufactures ready either.

Gmtech16450yz, I see you can find and paste stoich values for a production vehicle. Maybe you could take a screenshot of the stoich values for any of our boat engines instead? That would settle the original discussion real quick wouldn't it? From what @SamCF says regarding different fuel testing it sounds like they're tuned for E10.


Your info isn't wrong...given the context of custom tuning. That being said, very few of us on this board use it. It's the same with automobiles, there are millions of people who either never knew or cared but were adversely affected by e10 anyway. There are even less that took it upon themselves to come up with a solution.

I do agree that current technology vehicles and custom tuning can address the problems and somewhat close the gap between E10 and E0, but this is a recreational boat forum, and as far as I could tell a recreational boat thread.

Has any of us taken our boat into a shop and yanked the engine and strapped it to a dyno? Even if anyone had, what's the relevance in comparing custom tunes at all in this discussion if we are trying to figure out what Yamaha's stock configuration is?

 

[F.M.]