JetBoatPilot's New Surf Tech, Thrust Vector Wake

[mwalker4]

@swatski you bring up some good points about the long term reliability and safety impact of this and any other modification. In the automotive business, also assume in the boat business, the OEMs do significant failure mode analysis both in CAD/CAM and using protypes. This might not be required for some fins in the water, but you start redirecting the thrust of a 250 hp engine you might have some long term impacts. I hope there has been more engineering work than it appears.

 

["IN A MEETING"]

looking to upgrade my cobras and find something that will help with surf wake at the same time....

 

[cbpagent72]

I think I may have found out a lot of people steering problems. So as I try and put my boat back together after canceling the thrust vector Wake install because it won't fit on my boat without affecting the gate performance I noticed that the epoxy pieces are rubbing on my steering cable U shaped piece. it looks like I'm gonna have to take a grinder to lop off the things that I epoxied on .

Jetboatpilot you guys really need to get some non paying beta testers for these projects with varying model years that way you can iron out these issues before paying customers
buy them.

 

[swatski]

looking to upgrade my cobras and find something that will help with surf wake at the same time....

That's not difficult, actually... here is an example, let us know if you need more specific suggestions.

^^^^right on!
The transom bag is the key, we fill ours HARD, and push it back, and into the corner.
View attachment 100487

View attachment 100488

With that, ski locker bag and the wedge we throw a wave that according to Kate (wife) competes with wake boats.

I use 10.7mph as a startign point, adjust as @jcyamahariders wife indicated, sometimes a tad faster for Kate if she wants a bigger surface to play. I also "massage" the wave with tiny adjustments of my trim tabs but not always.

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[drewkaree]

I noticed that the epoxy pieces are rubbing on my steering cable U shaped piece. it looks like I'm gonna have to take a grinder to lop off the things that I epoxied on

The updated version has the upstop bracket already machined to address this. I also made note of this and how to tackle the issue - I think you might find my experience helpful, I wrote about it here:

https://jetboaters.net/threads/my-thrust-vector-wake-install-experience.22901/

Additional "heavy steering" is addressed with the updated deflectors, and the new bolt for the steering clevis (your U shaped piece). I can't tell from your pics of what the issue is that you're having with the spring, but what I did was run the adjustment screw all the way in (tighten it into the bracket), then back it out with the ball-end allen key after everything is installed. I also would recommend that you use a cap head socket screw instead of the screw you have.

Lastly, I can practically hear the frustration in your post. I WAS there in the same place as you - my install occurred over TWO WEEKENDS and multiple hours. I recommend that you take a break from this and come back to it after you have talked to Will and have ALL the updated parts and the screw I recommend.

 

[drewkaree]

Also wonder about straight line steering and top speed with TVWs.

My personal experience is that there's been no noticeable change in top speed for me, and straight line steering seems far easier to maintain than before (drove my boat about a month before installing the TVW's)

As far as the hard steering, there was a definite and noticeable improvement with the updated version vs my first generation (I was a pre-sale buyer, I think sometime in February or March).

It's my personal belief that the epoxy part of the install is contributing to issues with the throttle. The bucket is at the very end of the system, and IMO, even small amounts (see my blobs) are going to contribute significantly to the feel of the throttle,given the distance between the controller and the part being controlled. The only issue I see anymore with the steering linkage is if someone isn't using the updated angled bracket and/or the updated steering clevis bolt. Both of the original parts could cause significant contact, to the point of being unusable.

I haven't had a chance yet to test out the tubing, that may happen tomorrow if our power is restored. My experience is that the wake spray has been significantly knocked down vs stock setup. I cannot comment on Wake boarding or surfing, but I have a neighbor who wants ME to buy a board for HIM to test it out ?

 

[Rumbo]

I just spent my first day on the water with the TVW and have mixed feelings on it.

First, my install was issue free. I haven’t had any of the issues that others have had. While tolerances are close everything clears on my ‘18 AR240. I believe I have the latest version, smaller head on the upstop bolt and notched upstop bracket, etc. Mine shipped 7/1.

On the water....
Edit*** Day two on the water with some additional thoughts and changes to my initial review.

I’ll start with the negatives...
1. Steering is heavier. Not offensively heavy but immediately noticeable and consistently heavy through all speeds. Not thrilled with this but it was expected and if other benefits pan out it’s worth it.

Edit*** The steering feels normal now. I’m sure if I took these things off I would be surprised about how loose the steering would be. I too wonder about the long term effects of the additional stress on steering components but from a strictly operational perspective it feels normal. Had I driven one of these boats for the first time with this system installed I don’t think I would have second guessed anything about the steering. It feels like power steering in a full sized vehicle.

2. Throttle levers are heavy. This is consistent through the entire throttle range. Nothing is catching or obstructing the buckets or cables so I’m not sure what is causing this. Like the steering it’s not offensive but it also is not preferable.

Edit*** I can’t tell if the parts wore in or I just got used to the additional drag on the system but this is now a non issue for me.

3. My reverse buckets need adjusted. Not sure what during the install caused them to move out of adjustment but neutral now moves me backwards at about 1 mph. Simple adjustment to fix so not a big deal.

4. I don’t see how this improves anything on plane. At tubing and wakeboard speeds the spray and jet wash are huge! We haven’t pulled tubes yet but I don’t see this providing a dry tube ride. I will update on this later once I pull some tubers.

Edit*** my depth perception was off. The wake is a mess behind the boat on plane but at a standard tube rope length (I don’t know how long my surf rope is. It’s an Airdead with an 10’ or so additional piece, I did not have the additional piece on) the ride was dry. I jumped the gun on mentioning something about this before I actually pulled a tube. The ride is dry.

5. I have a noticeable list to port at all speeds above no wake. I used the gauge to adjust the upstops evenly. I think if I either adjust the port side to deflect more downward or decrease the deflection on the starboard side it will even out.

The positives...

1. Steering control at no wake speed is awesome. Steering input is very responsive. Very happy with this.

Edit*** this review is coming from a finless boat. I did not have fins before so I don’t have any other systems to compare to other than stock. The boat tracks straight and is much more responsive while turning in both forward and reverse. I was never bothered driving finless before adding these but now I can’t imagine owning a jetboat without fins.

2. Surfing is vastly improved. The wake is clean and has push. The jet wash deflector on the swim ladder cleans things up a bunch. I’m 195 lbs on a crappy board and was able to get slack in my rope. I still need to dial in my ballast and buy a quicker board and I think I will be ropeless, I’m very happy with this.

Edit*** I’m disappointed with my surf results on day two. I’m not sure what I messed up from yesterday but the wake was nowhere near as good today. Can’t imagine this has anything to do with the TVW’s as those are the only things that didn’t change. My guess would be the difference in weight between a full tank of fuel yesterday and a half tank today. My kids had slack in the rope all day but I was dragging myself all over the place trying to find anywhere that would give me some push and couldn’t find it. I think this is more of a testimony to how finicky these boats are to surf behind not a TVW thing.

3. They’re on all the time. Setup time for surfing consists of snapping the jet wash deflector onto the ladder and setting up ballast. This is what pushed me to the TVW’s over the other surf mods. I’m very happy with this aspect.

I think with some small adjustments many of the negatives I’m seeing will be resolved. I don’t think these provide quite as good of surfing results as the other surfing mods (based on videos, I don’t have personal experience with the other products) but it seems that once ballast is properly configured I will have a surfable wake.

^^^
I updated my review after day two on the water FYI

 

[capt]

I have had my new tvw's installed for a few weeks now and have been in the water with them at least 6 times pulling tubers and knee boarders. I have a 50 foot bungee rope for tubers. With this length I notice the tube riders squinting because of mild spray. I added an extra 15 ft and no spray at all. I could prob get away with just a 10 ft extension. I use a 75 ft rope for wakeboarding and knee boarding and have no spray issues at all. I am extremely happy with the reduced spray the tvw's provide.

 

[CAM212SS]

That makes me sad. I don't care about surfing. I was hoping for something improve low speed steering and reduce spray for tubes and knee boards. To paraphrase Meatloaf, One out of Three ain't bad. (old guy reference)

Read his edit. It’s good now

 

[Rumbo]

Day 3..... I’m dumbfounded by the inconsistencies of my results. I pulled my kids on tubes today and would say that the spray on them today was as bad as no fins ?, they were getting pelted. The only changes today from yesterday was less fuel and my tiny 120 lbs wife was onshore. I was pulling tubers with about ¼ tank today. Maybe less weight in the tank and my wife not sitting in the boat changed the attitude of the boat?

I can’t see TVW’s attributing to these inconsistencies but it’s starting to seem to me that they don’t give much leeway from ideal setup to work.

 

[geohil]

I'll add my $0.02 here - after three days on a lake burning 80 gallons of gas pulling tubers and wake boarders I found some goods and bads with the TVW. First the heavy steering was a non-issue. I have the latest deflector set to the V1 gauge. The throttles did feel heavier and that will be something I will look into. Reverse was almost non-existent. That fix will be priority one. Otherwise I pulled tubers from mild to wild with just the standard Costco HO tube and 60' rope and didn't have any spray complaints. Same with wake boarders but I was confused by the spray right behind the boat? Here is a clip to show what I'm talking about. 16 MPH

One thing I did notice was the more people riding in the bow of the boat, the more spray. The less fuel and weight in the boat, the more spray.
I have not inspected the parts to see if anything was rubbing as of yet. We got back late last night and I just shoved the boat in the side yard and went to bed.
All in all some tuning and tweaking is still needed, but there is potential.

 

[biffdotorg]

I'll add my $0.02 here - after three days on a lake burning 80 gallons of gas pulling tubers and wake boarders I found some goods and bads with the TVW. First the heavy steering was a non-issue. I have the latest deflector set to the V1 gauge. The throttles did feel heavier and that will be something I will look into. Reverse was almost non-existent. That fix will be priority one. Otherwise I pulled tubers from mild to wild with just the standard Costco HO tube and 60' rope and didn't have any spray complaints. Same with wake boarders but I was confused by the spray right behind the boat? Here is a clip to show what I'm talking about. 16 MPH

One thing I did notice was the more people riding in the bow of the boat, the more spray. The less fuel and weight in the boat, the more spray.
I have not inspected the parts to see if anything was rubbing as of yet. We got back late last night and I just shoved the boat in the side yard and went to bed.
All in all some tuning and tweaking is still needed, but there is potential.

That's what we are seeing as well. I actually got a chance to ride the tube yesterday. The spray 60ft out on the tube is much less with TV-wake. The amount of spray right behind the boat is way more. So it is doing what it is supposed to, but from the boat, it looks as if there is 5x as much spray. It's just not getting to the tube. But yes, weight has a huge play on how they perform. I think I am going to drop mine down to the V1 setting as well, as I am halfway in between and cannot find a clean wave. I need them lowered and more ballasts (on order)

 

[swatski]

Lol. Sorry, i couldn’t resist, if that makes me a troll...
it’s all in good fun.


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[geohil]

Lol. Sorry, i couldn’t resist, if that makes me a troll...
it’s all in good fun.
View attachment 100634

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I'm a tinker-er by nature so for me yes it is! Even if these TVW would have been perfect from the get-go I would still be messing with them and everything else on my boat. My wife likes to tease that if it ain't broke, let me tinker with it until it is.
I'm enjoying this iterative process!

 

[Scottie]

I sold my set without installing, so this is anecdotal, but I've been wondering since the beginning what the "clean wave" difference would be between V1 and whatever has come since. Will was adamant that the "claw" greatly cleaned up the wave, but then people complaining about stiff steering forced the removal of those. It's hard for me to believe you can "have your cake and eat it too". If I was going to install these, I'd want V1, which produced some great results on early videos.

 

[biffdotorg]

Lol. Sorry, i couldn’t resist, if that makes me a troll...
it’s all in good fun.
View attachment 100634

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No, I get it, there are just too many variables in these setups for folks to narrow it down.

I am following your ballast advice. Surf side transom bag as full as one can get, and ski locker full. Once that is in, then I will tune devices if needed. There is no need to touch that crap on the pumps anymore without the proper ballast in place.

It worked when the boat was full of folks, but that happens less and less until I can repeat results. So non-human ballast will eliminate variables.

 

[Matt Phillips]

I installed the V1 on my boat and it took a day. I ended up using a bench grinder to grind down the up-stops to ensure I had Clearance. The steering was noticeably heavier and there was definitely a "thunk" when the fins transitioned up. Additionally, my boat had a 1MPH creep in reverse as well.

The second time I took them out I had upgraded the cross members and readjusted the fins. I noticed a dramatic difference in lighter steering as well as no more "thunk". The last time out at the lake it was too rough to do any wake sports so I haven't been able to determine the reverse creep or how well the wake is cleaned up. I'm hoping to get some time on the water this weekend to check it out. Stay tuned.

 

[cbrown9956]

Hey guys,

So I've had version 2 of the TVW installed now for a couple of weeks on a 2019 AR195 and have noticed a few things.

First is the discoloring of the black fins. I actually noticed these after our first trip out but didn't take the time to look into it when I pulled the boat out. This past weekend after I pulled the boat out I took regular dawn soap and water to clean them all I got off was black none of the white in the picture. Anyone have ideas of what's causing this and how to clean/fix it?

The second thing I noticed is when pulling someone on the tube they are still getting a lot of splash from the wake in the face. We are using a 50ft rope and going about 20mph on average with smooth water. I've not made any adjustments because I wanted to get feed back first.

The last thing I've noticed is the steering feels a lot heavier than what I think it should. Before adding the TVW I could turn the wheel with just 2 fingers now at high speeds 25+mph and low speeds you need to put some force into it. I can understand the lower speed needing to use more force because of the fins but not at high speeds when the fins should be up.


Thanks guys.

 

[haknslash]

If the anodized parts don't also have a sealer (this is done chemically and not like a "clear coat") then the dye can bleed. Even if the anodized seals the dye you can still have bleeding or discoloration from temperature, racking, immersion, etc inconsistencies during the anodizing process. Anodized parts will also discolor over time depending on their exposure and the fastness they were anodized to. This is probably why they have switched to powder coating moving forward. There are just a lot of variables and inconsistencies that can arise with anodizing. Several of our parts are anodized and some with dyes, so making sure this process is done to the specific applications needs is vital to a good finish. Anodized parts can look cool and offer protection if done right but they would not be my choice for this application. Just my .02

As far as getting spray at 50' I think that can happen with and without these things. That's a really short length and I pull tubes at 60' behind my vdrive. They don't complain of spray but do complain the white wash underneath is rough on the butts. Having a longer length say 70' gets them out of that.

 

[biffdotorg]

That's a good explanation.

I bought some cheap anodized blue pee holes last year. And their color ran. They still look better than broken plastic, but the color is not right. I was surprised it could happen. But not anymore.