Turning Radius

[swatski]

If you think about it, the best way to get these boats to turn hard IS to give them hard throttle in a turn.

Now PERHAPS the Chap was designed with a very flat bottom....if so I don't want it! My old LX210 had a flat bottom and was AWESOME fun to spin....but was horrible in ANY kind of chop or waves as a result. Having some deadrise and V to the hull makes the ride so much nicer.

I think that @Julian hit the nail on the head.

But, a bigger point here is - I think - it is hilarious that, ALL OF A SUDDEN, being able to do slide turns is an asset in the boating world!
Yeah - that Chaparral does turn a lot more like an oversized jet ski! Bravo.

 

[swatski]

Said it before and I will say it again...some one needs to make the same bucket for the Yamaha. It can't be that difficult...

Maybe... because there is a patent?

 

[Rob9550]

Maybe... because there is a patent?

It can have a few differences and not be an infringement on current patents.

 

[swatski]

It can have a few differences and not be an infringement on current patents.

When you right you right! After all Yamaha guys managed to patent a rudder in 2015. I mean articulating keel.

 

[Cobra Jet Steering LLC]

Well Yamaha makes one on their jet ski but with my fangs I think your reverse issues are a thing of the past, however I will let the people who have them on their boats tell you that .
As for Yamaha and a keel it is pretty simple, a keel makes a boat go straight a steerable rudder makes it turn so one counters the other. I read the patent application in public par they had to do it that way to get around patents if they would have contacted me I would have licensed it to them quite inexpensively and they would have had a better design but no one asked. Heck another couple years and I will be looking to retire anyway I will be looking to license this stuff and go relax. I have been making these boats steer for 15 years , not to alienate anyone but I am a diehard Yamaha fan when it comes to their engines, pumps and reliability not so much on their hull strength but they are easy to fix. Sea doo engines and pumps are a second to them in my honest opinion based on the reliability factor and That is from years of first hand experience. Also those doo reverse buckets steer backward as opposed to what people are accustom to with a car. So really everyone has their preferences look at scarab mikes plight for example or mine with KAWASUCKI NEVER AGAIN EVER!!! You just don't know until you buy one. What's the saying buy your second boat first

 

[Glen]

I believe Yamaha is hunting up market into the Sea Ray Sundeck (and like) customers with their pattern of design over the past few years. They will give up some of the teen and 20-something desired boat capabilities, to gain more of the 30-50 crowd. It is where the money is.

 

[Cobra Jet Steering LLC]

Slides really are old hat, the jet boat feel really, these are now boats that are jet propelled. I had a jet boat 15 years ago and I hated it, so I invented steering to make it turn on a dime and hold it's position in the water when pulling tubes and skiers etc. If you want to spin and slide at speed just remember ROLL OVER , hit one wave at speed while sliding sideways and it isn't pretty. In any event the boats people are buying now are for family boating and water sports as much as anything , it's a different market , remember jet boats of old were honestly a seriously declining market everyone was jumping ship pun intended. Now they all want back in. So think about WHY. It's a new day.

 

[ptwb]

If that test is accurate and it's because of the yamaha RUDDER, all the more reason I'm disliking newer Yamaha boats. Like stated above, I want a jetboat, not a jet propelled boat.

I've also been screaming loudly for years for Yamaha to switch to a fixed reverse bucket design, it would make neutral and reverse handling tons better. My yamaha jetski has a fixed reverse bucket. Chaparel's bucket design may be patented but it's really the fixed part that makes the most difference offering the ability to send thrust out laterally and there are different designs that all work well. Biggest issue is it makes reverse behave the opposite and now would counteract the rudder.

For the longest time I was being loud about how pathetic 'wake mode' was and how it was really a band-aid hack fix for lousy throttle control and that I wanted yamaha to add electronic throttle control, something seadoo added a long time ago. Back then, a lot of yamahaers griped that they didn't want that electronic crap (what do you think wake mode was?) and that seadoos were too expensive because of all the electronic 'junk'. Fast forward, Yamahas now cost more than seadoos and FINALLY have electronic throttle control and also unfortunately expensive touchscreen interfaces.

Maybe they will switch some day. I can dream. Dump the @#@#ing STUPID RUDDER and add a fixed reverse gate!!!!!!

 

[Julian]

Perhaps they'll need to decide what market they want to serve and perhaps each Manufacturer will focus on a specific market. But I agree with @Cobra Jet Steering LLC and I enjoy a boat that tracks and is a nicer ride. It still cuts hard and is fun to drive. I'd rather have that than a flat bottomed spine crusher in waves. But each person has a different desire/need. My bet...Yamaha will stick to building family friendly boats....but perhaps they'll keep a model or two with no rudder, flat bottoms and SHO engines???

 

[smashedheadcat]

Mine turns quick enough as it is. Like you said, we can throw people out of the boat is it is. Why would we want to turn fast if we could?

You don't have an articulating keel do you? There's a reason Chaparral didn't compare their boat in this way with your boat. They will perform in a similar fashion.

 

[txav8r]

The Chap is a hull design much like Yamaha was before the articulating keel. They built what the market was asking for. Chap will get some sales based on its great heritage, but like @Julian and @Cobra Jet Steering LLC are saying, it is old school and to get more market share, Yamaha built a better boat, not just a jet boat. My 230 would out turn that chap any day of the week. My 240, maybe not, and I am pre keel tech. The deeper keel, and true tracking will sell boats, but I miss the crisp turn and slide. Can't spin a 240. But it will handle chop and rough water much better IMO.

 

[ptwb]

Is the RUDDER 240 model ride really better in rough water? I don't see yamaha advertising that improved aspect of it anywhere. All I read are about steering improvements. The hull is still the same 20deg deadrise. It seems to me Yamaha took the easy way out and so as not to need to make a complete new mold to make a new inverse mold, somebody just glued a new small 'keel' onto the bottom of the original 1st mold and they only needed to make a new inverse mold and everything else keeps fitting together. Is that tiny little keel at the back really affecting ride quality? If so, keelshield should consider introducing a glue on ride improving keel.

It would be interesting if somebody were to do a blind ride test in pre/post keel boats in rough water and see if they can tell a difference in the smoothness of the ride.

Also, I wonder if somebody were to artificially limit max turning radius on a rudderless 240 to match a ruddered 240's radius could they detect the difference in a blind test regarding on plane turning performance and handling? I'd bet most my turns are the larger radius, if not even larger, anyways. I do like knowing that if I need to turn sharper, I can.

 

[smashedheadcat]

Where did this rumor of poor ride quality in chaparral's come from?

 

[Julian]

I noticed 3 big improvements on the 242X with keel that I drove...

1. Straight line tracking....I'd say it reduced the course correcting one has to do to keep a heading by 50%
2. Wake "walking"....that feeling of wiggling you get when you cross a wake at a 45% angle was gone
3. Stern pull out when skiing/boarding-much harder to get the stern to move when I pulled out to the side (something the dedicated wake boats complain bitterly about jet boats)

 

[swatski]

And one more thing. I would like to point out in here that according to several early testers including myself a relatively inexpensive add-on FANGS make Yamaha's reverse pretty much laser sharp. At least around the dock, which is where it seems to matter most.

 

[Higgy]

Alright so I think @Ronnie has a drone he shoots video with. Surely we can find a Yamaha and a Chap vortex to do a genuine unbiased recreation of this video. No?

 

[smashedheadcat]

I am sure you'll find this video accurate if you test the same boats at the same speeds. You'll see a difference if you test a Yamaha without an articulating keel. All of it is honestly pointless as it's never-ending.

As Yamaha owners, you want to re-create the video because you are biased towards Yamaha. There's nothing wrong with that, but you'll see the same results unless you stack the deck in Yamaha's favor. If your boat isn't the winner, you'll find something that it wins in. There's nothing wrong with that either. Chaparral did the same thing. They didn't show a video of them tracking with their hands off the wheel at fwd idle speeds for a reason. It doesn't make either a bad boat, they just excel at different things.

 

[Higgy]

I am sure you'll find this video accurate if you test the same boats at the same speeds. You'll see a difference if you test a Yamaha without an articulating keel. All of it is honestly pointless as it's never-ending.

As Yamaha owners, you want to re-create the video because you are biased towards Yamaha. There's nothing wrong with that, but you'll see the same results unless you stack the deck in Yamaha's favor. If your boat isn't the winner, you'll find something that it wins in. There's nothing wrong with that either. Chaparral did the same thing. They didn't show a video of them tracking with their hands off the wheel at fwd idle speeds for a reason. It doesn't make either a bad boat, they just excel at different things.

I would agree with most of what you said... however... Dude.. c'mon.. I could do a 180° in damn school bus and turn it tighter than they did in the 192.

 

[smashedheadcat]

Doesn't the new 192 have an articulating keel? I would imagine that the only reason they picked that particular boat is because it would look bad in comparison in this test at that speed. I'm sure a 2015 or older model would turn in a similar to Chaparral fashion right? There is certainly potential for sand-bagging it though. I acknowledge that.

 

[swatski]

Doesn't the new 192 have an articulating keel? I would imagine that the only reason they picked that particular boat is because it would look bad in comparison in this test at that speed. I'm sure a 2015 or older model would turn in a similar to Chaparral fashion right? There is certainly potential for sand-bagging it though. I acknowledge that.

Just like FSH, all 190/192 have the same hull. The only thing articulating is a modified ride plate extension with a rudder attachment to pump nozzle for steering.