txav8r's new barn construction (RV but could be boat)

[itsdgm]

Looks great Mel.

 

[txav8r]

Thanks guys. @biglar155 , I wish I could weld. Those guys can be very good fabricators. Ironically, I did solve two or three big problems but I didn't weld them. A couple of recommendation for attachments and tools. The portable dewalt band saw is a must for anyone working with metal. And either or, shears for your drill/impact driver, or a metal nibbler are amazing! I like the process and having built my house (contracted) but also did a good deal of the work, electrical, finish hardware and lockset installation, decks and railings, all doesn't sound like much but it was a bunch in addition to being the GC. The building came out great, but not without challenge. I hope it can help anyone looking for a solution to storage.

 

[txav8r]

I am still working on wiring...

I removed the 100A service panel and installed the new 200A service panel in its place in the old boat barn. I have all the wiring pulled...2GA with a double pole 100A breaker in the 200A box to feed the RV barn's 100A panel. I HATE PULLING HEAVY GA WIRE!!! I have the outdoor pedestal we have been using, installed permanently now to the side of the entrance to the new barn for outdoor needs. Running the 6GA for the pedestal where I moved it to, required cutting the 6GA cable and splicing it to add another 30', and that is something I had not done before. It puts me at the limit for 6GA but that is ok, it will never pull 100% of the 50A load. And it is protected with a 50A double pole breaker in the service panel, and a 50A double pole breaker in the pedestal. It is run off of the main 200A service panel. If I had to hire an electrician to do all this work, it would have been as much as foaming the new RV barn! The wiring I now have left is just within the RV barn itself. I will have a walk door light above it, as well as a light above both the overhead garage doors. I am using new 4' LED fixtures that provide equivalent illumination to 80 watts of florescent lighting each, but only draw a total of 18W each...and installing 4 down each side of the barn ceiling for a total of 8 of those fixtures. It should provide good illumination. It is high up however, at about 13' I think. And they will be angled toward the coach by the pitch of the roof. If this doesn't provide adequate illumination, I will lower them at some point. But the coach is almost 12' tall to the roof line and another foot above that for a/c and other roof mounted items. So my thoughts were to make sure the roof was well illuminated and at the same time, the floor and wall area of both the barn and the coach. I think that I may need at least two more of these fixtures on the front and back to illuminate the rear and front of the coach if needed. But...with garage doors on both ends, if they are open, it blocks the ceiling and any lighting mounted there. So any lighting needs to be suspended below the open door. I think maybe a flexible gooseneck lamp mounted on the wall would serve to illuminate any task lighting needed there as opposed to trying to get general lighting to cover it.

A note to any of you with those garage or utility 4' fixtures that are florescent...KEEP THEM! For literally a buck or two, you can change the ends the tubes twist into, they are called tombstones, and you need non-shunted tombstones to use the new LED tubes. You cut out the ballast box and use the existing wiring to convert them to LED. I converted my house over and had 24 of these fixtures in my garages, utility, and closets. I ordered 50 LED tubes on eBay for less than $8 each, replaced the florescent, have two spares, and have clean, instant, non flicker, non temperature affected, bright white lighting. I wish I could have found a dozen of these fixtures surplus to put in the old barn and the new RV barn. Buying them for $30 each didn't make sense and then spending $2 converting them, so I bought the fixtures I bought that don't use the tubes, and just have the same strip LED inside them. So if you have these fixtures in your closets or utility rooms and garages, you are going to want to keep them and convert them when you need to replace bulbs or ballasts, as it is cheaper all the way around.

In addition to the lighting runs in the new barn, I have to run the wiring for 20A 110V outlets. My plan calls for 4 outlet boxes on each side of the barn, and two on each end. All of these need the wiring protected. The wiring will be behind the OSB composite plywood, I am lining the interior barn walls with. I could just run the romex cable behind the walls without putting in conduit. Several have mentioned code to me, and interior buildings don't require conduit unless the wiring is exposed. But in a barn, it is iffy as to intent too. In my existing barn, I ran the romex on the rafters and stapled it down without concern and behind the OSB on the walls. In the new barn, I don't have surfaces to mount as easily to, and that has me thinking conduit. I will use the conduit for exposed runs just for a clean look. But behind the walls, I am not convinced it is the best option. I have talked about this before, and don't know if any of you have any ideas you might want to share here. My thoughts have been to just lay the wiring behind the conduit in the foam and cover with the OSB...done. But if you ever need to run something else, extend something, or make a change, you can't easily do that without removing the OSB from the wall in question. That is what I do in the old barn when needed, just like adding the new run to the new barn.

I think maybe some may ask why I post this thread in a boat forum. Well, honestly, it is perfectly applied to a boat barn, or even a home improvement project. And we all have them. And just like everything else here, it is what we share that makes this forum so great. I have learned a huge amount from jetboaters over the years, and giving back is a pleasure! So I hope this helps a few of you to find solutions and adaptations to help you with your projects in the years to come!

 

[zipper]

I am still working on wiring...

I removed the 100A service panel and installed the new 200A service panel in its place in the old boat barn. I have all the wiring pulled...2GA with a double pole 100A breaker in the 200A box to feed the RV barn's 100A panel. I HATE PULLING HEAVY GA WIRE!!! I have the outdoor pedestal we have been using, installed permanently now to the side of the entrance to the new barn for outdoor needs. Running the 6GA for the pedestal where I moved it to, required cutting the 6GA cable and splicing it to add another 30', and that is something I had not done before. It puts me at the limit for 6GA but that is ok, it will never pull 100% of the 50A load. And it is protected with a 50A double pole breaker in the service panel, and a 50A double pole breaker in the pedestal. It is run off of the main 200A service panel. If I had to hire an electrician to do all this work, it would have been as much as foaming the new RV barn! The wiring I now have left is just within the RV barn itself. I will have a walk door light above it, as well as a light above both the overhead garage doors. I am using new 4' LED fixtures that provide equivalent illumination to 80 watts of florescent lighting each, but only draw a total of 18W each...and installing 4 down each side of the barn ceiling for a total of 8 of those fixtures. It should provide good illumination. It is high up however, at about 13' I think. And they will be angled toward the coach by the pitch of the roof. If this doesn't provide adequate illumination, I will lower them at some point. But the coach is almost 12' tall to the roof line and another foot above that for a/c and other roof mounted items. So my thoughts were to make sure the roof was well illuminated and at the same time, the floor and wall area of both the barn and the coach. I think that I may need at least two more of these fixtures on the front and back to illuminate the rear and front of the coach if needed. But...with garage doors on both ends, if they are open, it blocks the ceiling and any lighting mounted there. So any lighting needs to be suspended below the open door. I think maybe a flexible gooseneck lamp mounted on the wall would serve to illuminate any task lighting needed there as opposed to trying to get general lighting to cover it.

A note to any of you with those garage or utility 4' fixtures that are florescent...KEEP THEM! For literally a buck or two, you can change the ends the tubes twist into, they are called tombstones, and you need non-shunted tombstones to use the new LED tubes. You cut out the ballast box and use the existing wiring to convert them to LED. I converted my house over and had 24 of these fixtures in my garages, utility, and closets. I ordered 50 LED tubes on eBay for less than $8 each, replaced the florescent, have two spares, and have clean, instant, non flicker, non temperature affected, bright white lighting. I wish I could have found a dozen of these fixtures surplus to put in the old barn and the new RV barn. Buying them for $30 each didn't make sense and then spending $2 converting them, so I bought the fixtures I bought that don't use the tubes, and just have the same strip LED inside them. So if you have these fixtures in your closets or utility rooms and garages, you are going to want to keep them and convert them when you need to replace bulbs or ballasts, as it is cheaper all the way around.

In addition to the lighting runs in the new barn, I have to run the wiring for 20A 110V outlets. My plan calls for 4 outlet boxes on each side of the barn, and two on each end. All of these need the wiring protected. The wiring will be behind the OSB composite plywood, I am lining the interior barn walls with. I could just run the romex cable behind the walls without putting in conduit. Several have mentioned code to me, and interior buildings don't require conduit unless the wiring is exposed. But in a barn, it is iffy as to intent too. In my existing barn, I ran the romex on the rafters and stapled it down without concern and behind the OSB on the walls. In the new barn, I don't have surfaces to mount as easily to, and that has me thinking conduit. I will use the conduit for exposed runs just for a clean look. But behind the walls, I am not convinced it is the best option. I have talked about this before, and don't know if any of you have any ideas you might want to share here. My thoughts have been to just lay the wiring behind the conduit in the foam and cover with the OSB...done. But if you ever need to run something else, extend something, or make a change, you can't easily do that without removing the OSB from the wall in question. That is what I do in the old barn when needed, just like adding the new run to the new barn.

I think maybe some may ask why I post this thread in a boat forum. Well, honestly, it is perfectly applied to a boat barn, or even a home improvement project. And we all have them. And just like everything else here, it is what we share that makes this forum so great. I have learned a huge amount from jetboaters over the years, and giving back is a pleasure! So I hope this helps a few of you to find solutions and adaptations to help you with your projects in the years to come!

It probably will not be an issue for you, but a 50a breaker is designed to trip at 80% of Max amperage or around 40 amps as I said probably not an issue, you would have to plug in a lot of stuff to reach 40.

 

[txav8r]

Yes, almost all our load situations in our homes and in our boats, should have the same 80% protection margin. My coach is a 50A RV. It needs and is designed to run its systems and requires a 50A double pole, service to do that. While you carry two 110V lines, a total of 220V, it is actually divided at the coach by the EMS, and half powers one side and half powers the other. The generator carries these loads while mobile. You wouldn't want to put in a higher than 50A breaker for the coach, but you can run one a/c unit and most of the other systems on a 30A plug (and breaker). RV pedestals and wall mount boxes, generally are either 50A, 30A, or just 20A. And an up to date park pedestal will usually have all three. At a park, I can't see how they distribute and provide this service, I can just see it at the pedestal, and plug into it. However, my Fleetwood Discovery has built in EMS and checks any provided power for correctness before connecting it to the coach. I go one step further, and have a Surge Guard 50A external accessory cable that acts as a surge protector and monitor. When I plug in, it looks at the power for correctness and total, and won't pass it to the coach until it sees what it needs, then the coach EMS does the same thing, and wa la...let there be light! For setting it up at home, I have to get power to the coach both in the barn, and outside if needed. So I am running my outside pedestal off of the old barn 200A service panel, through a 50A breaker, and at the end of that 6GA wire run, is another 50A breaker in the pedestal (as well as a 30A and 20A breaker, that protects just the pedestal (its outlets) and beyond. This is my outdoor water tight pedestal...

You can see that each of the outlet distribution is protected by its own breaker, as well as the 20A being a gfci. My interior panel for the coach power is provided from the 200A service in the old barn, via a 100A breaker, via 2G cable, to the 100A main breaker on the secondary service panel (sub panel), and from there to the indoor panel, via the 50A breaker in the 100A panel, to the RV panel via 6GA cable, to the 50A and 20A breakers at the RV panel. Its how they do it in RV parks and provides good protection and keeps the 80% margins you mentioned. Here is my indoor panel for the RV...

I can see how you may take the total rating of the panel, and get that you might need to install a 60A breaker because that is what the box is rated for, or a 100A breaker for the outdoor pedestal. Because if you plugged in and used all three (or two on the indoor panel), you would be using all that supply capacity. The reason that I am told I do not need to provide all that additional wire size as well as breaker capacity, is that same thing as in your home...you have lets say a 200A panel. Yet you have a 40A oven, two 50A a/c units, a 30A water heater, and only God knows how many 20 and 15A circuits you have...and they total a good deal above the capacity of the protected 200A panel. This is because we don't run all the circuits at the same time, but if we reach the capacity, you will trip a breaker. It is common in some RV's to overload and trip a breaker, because folks are literally living in them and running the washer, microwave, a/c units, water heater, and then throw in a blow dryer for good measure...and your over the 80% limit! And it is so common for them to be drafty and lack that warm comfort in the winter, that some will also plug in a space heater of another 1500w or more!

Providing power to the pedestal isn't to run 3 separate circuits at once, and you may be right, I may need to up the wire diameter and distributing breaker by code in some communities. But like your house, I don't intend to plug anything into that panel except for one cord at a time. The RV has its own 110V outlets and the barn also has 20A protected 110V outlets all over it, so using the pedestal 20A outlet while the RV is plugged in won't be done, and would be same as you plugging in 50 blowdryers in your 50 110V outlets at home! Either way, if you or we do, we trip a breaker! At any rate, I don't know if I addressed your thoughts @zipper , but if not, or if I have a misconception, let me know!

 

[zipper]

We are good, it's just that when you posted above "it will never see 100% of the 50a load." My thoughts were of course not it could only see 80%. I understand what you are talking about, I used to design electrical circuits based on their loads both constant and intermittent for a design firm working at IBM, National semi. and Dominion semiconductor 20 years ago before I went back to the land.
Hence the electrical questions I asked on your thread.

 

[txav8r]

@zipper , you are far beyond my capability! I'm basically a homeowner and nothing more except for a fairly knowledgable DIYer. I typically over engineer, because I didn't do thanything math. But your questions caused me to look farther out, concerned I might not have. I personally have been overly scrutinious on all kinds of mods and upgrades, both at home and on the boat. I have learned offering help works better then raining an eyebrow. So in the infamous words of Ross Perot, I'm all ears if your thinking I didn't cover all bases!

 

[zipper]

I concur with all that I have read on your thread, I enjoy reading what you have done. I guess I am a builder at heart. I have built the 3 houses I have lived in since 1990 including wiring and plumbing I am a big DIYer myself. My current house is a timber frame. All the wood came from my farm. I cut the trees, milled the logs, hired out the joinery and timber frame construction, and I did the rest. That was 15 yrs. ago. I am still working on trim work upstairs. For a DIYer finding time to finish can be the hardest part. What you have built Mel is awesome. PS I voted for Ross, we share that name, tho mine is a middle one. But I guess his was too.

 

[txav8r]

I knew we had many shared passions @zipper , Ross. I am also a lover of timber frame construction and the old ways of barn building. I am in awe, logs from your own property even. I would have had a 25% overage however, because I would have tried to cut those joints myself! It is a skill, and not mastered in one build. I was fortunate to get to apprentice on one timber frame erection in the 90's, but all the joints had been cut months earlier and the lumber on site to age with the climate, before the build.

 

[DawgDaze]

It looks awesome Mel!

 

[txav8r]

I seem to run into another challenge at every corner. My spray foam crew arrived at 9am this morning as promised, and after discussion, they convinced me to run my conduit for electrical "before" rather than "after". So we postponed the foam until next week.

My issues are running conduit on this barn. The barn walls are corrugated so to speak, with 7.5" valleys and ridges along the wall and roof. So running anything isn't possible without finding an existing bolt to attach to the thread of the 5/16" x 18 bolt extending past the serrated lock nut on the wall. I made three trips to Home Depot today following a trip to Fastenal to pick up longer bolts that I had ordered three times now to get what I needed. I didn't get what I needed even on the third try. I needed, a 5/16" x 18 thread x 1.75" long, flange bolt that wasn't serrated (the nut is serrated). Three tries didn't get the job done. Another call to Future Buildings and they basically say to "KISS". I get it. But if it wasn't an issue, why do they provide 5800 bolts, 5800 nuts, and tell you to do everything by the book? Well, I am over it. He even said I could remove bolts and use Althread with a nut and just any old washer to seal the fastener. I know better, it will leak. But I caved and bought hex head bolts in the 2" length, added a flat washer, a sealing poly washer, and then torqued them as I did all the bolts. That way, they will protrude through the foam and allow me to attach my OSB.

I did get the RV barn service panel set and hole drilled in the steel purlin with the male 1.25" threaded fitting and lock washer installed, all the 2Ga cable pulled through 2 45's and connectors into the service panel, and the wire attached to the bus bars. It looks clean, but I wish I had made more progress today. At least I got those long bolts done too. I will get some conduit run tomorrow. I want to get lights up and on, so I can see with the doors down. And I want to get those outlets and the RV inside panel up. I am having to design some sort of bracket to attach to the walls. I will post a few pics tomorrow.

 

[txav8r]

A shot of the LED lights mounted. I have one conduit on each to connect to make final connections and have lighting!!!

 

[txav8r]

Here's a better shot.

 

[Julian]

Not sure if there is any way to add small skylights in that roof....but it would add a ton of natural light during the day if you could....

Been fun to watch this progress! Great job! More than I'd ever take on!

 

[txav8r]

They make skylights for it @Julian . But the added heat load in Texas is something I want to stay away from. I am having it spray foam insulated which is costly. Ironically, a single skylight designed for this building, is half the price of foam! Two would be as much as foam. I did put two foot by one foot Windows, two in each door. They let in a good amount of light to see, without the heat. the LED's should give me good task lighting and if I open the two 14' tall garage doors, I have good lights for lighting and ventilation.

 

[txav8r]

Simple 110v 112/2 w ground for outlets and 14/2 w ground for lights. It took days and seems a challenge at every corner. But I have all the conduit and outlets in with wire, but I only completed a single outlet on each side until the building is foamed. Finished the lights and the outlet for garage door opener. Moved the temporary control wire for door opener into conduit. After I was complete, I had no light thru switch. I mistakenly assumed I could use a common neutral but the LEDs were finicky and wanted there very own neutral. I still have the RV power box inside the barn, conduit, wire pull, and setting the box. But foam is on its way now and we have light!

 

[buckbuck]

Looking good Mel. I'll bet your anxious to get the foam installed.
Just curious, how did you pull the wire through the j-boxes mounted up high next to the overhead door?

 

[txav8r]

Looking good Mel. I'll bet your anxious to get the foam installed.
Just curious, how did you pull the wire through the j-boxes mounted up high next to the overhead door?

I used a sissor lift and really just pushed wire through @buckbuck

 

[buckbuck]

But the conduit is installed into the cover. How did you pull wire through that conduit?

 

[txav8r]

Without that lift, all the work on this barn would have been a huge pain and taken MUCH longer and some wouldn't have been possible with just a ladder.

I put J boxes in critical locations so I didn't have to pull wire too far without getting another shot at it.