***WARNING*** 2015-18 YAMAHA “AR” BOAT OWNERS WITH FORWARD SWEPT WAKEBOARD TOWERS

[djetok]

I would think that 4 outta 5000 failures would be an acceptable number, considering it's less than 1%.

I don't know about acceptable, but I understand your reasoning. The majority of these boats are on lakes and typically are not in the waves like in the ocean for 3 to 6 hours each way. I do believe that would be the difference. Maybe if 5000 ar240s crossed at the same time and only 4 failed that would be different.

 

[2kwik4u]

Interesting discussion. Not sure I agree with @2kwik4u assertion that these failures are statistically insignificant. If 4 towers collapsed out of 5000 boats sold, then sure, in terms of Polling/election statistics, this is insignificant. However, if as a result, 4 people were injured by these falling towers, or almost injured, then that becomes a statistic the NTSB would be interested in. The same applies to cars....if a car had a problem that can cause it to accelerate on its own, 4 in 5000 times, they will look at that and say....fix the issue (from my perspective). Even if they don't, it is good for members to know about the issue. It is primarily an issue for ocean boating where the towers take the most flexing....but could happen anywhere.

This is correct. My assertion that they are statistically insignificant is based on the automotive recall way of thinking. As board members, we have one case of personal injury from this issue, and several reports of close calls. With the injury coming from a damaged product. As compared to the number of boats sold, this is low, very low. I wasn't intending to relieve the severity of injuries from the discussion. We honestly can't make those predictions without knowing true claim numbers, and true sales numbers. I doubt Yamaha will ever release those to us though.

These boats are fine in the ocean. I would like @swatski to be clearer in how he drove the boat that day (in my opinion, faster than he should have for the conditions).

I agree.

 

[Sbrown]

I wanted to chime in here with my observations really quickly, since I have the experience of crossing to Bimini, I am a VERY particular and detail oriented mechanic and machinist, and I have been keeping a close eye on my tower bolts since originally reading this post last year. Also, I raise and lower my tower every outing, because I tow with the tower down. Here is what I've experienced so far:

I checked the tower knobs after reading this post originally and I got about an eighth of a turn out of them both. No big deal in my opinion. Every time I've checked them after that they've never been loose.

I ran the boat to Bimini, and even though it was a pretty calm ride for the most part, we did hit some larger waves, though not nearly as large as the 2017 crew encountered. During the crossing, my tower was making an odd and loud Crack! noise on the harder landings. I did check the handwheels and both were still tight. I loosened both slightly to let the tower reset itself and then tightened them back down.....no more noise. I took both bolts out in Bimini and inspected the threads of the bolts as well as the threads in the tower itself. I found no problems with either. I have since used the tower to tow 4 tubers on two different tubes all at the same time with no observable ill effects.

I do agree that it is ridiculously easy to crossthread those bolts though and I always use two people to raise and lower my tower so that I can get it in the exact perfect position for the bolts to go in as easy as putting the lid back on a gallon of milk. If someone managed to crossthread the bolts, I could see how the threads could easily pull out. I believe this crossthreading could easily be done by an owner or a service technician not paying close enough attention when setting the tower up. I also believe the tower bases are not in perfect alignment with the tower and this makes crossthreading even easier to achieve. I realigned my tower bases to alleviate this situation somewhat, but setting the tower up still requires careful attention.

With all this being said, and all the goings on about the failures, I check my tower bolts several times during an outing and I have never found them loose or backed out other than that first time I checked last year. I strongly believe in taking personal responsibility for my family's safety, but I feel Yamaha could have covered raising and lowering the tower a little better in the owner's manual, along with making checking the bolts part of a recommended pre-launch inspection routine.

 

[swatski]

These boats are fine in the ocean. I would like @swatski to be clearer in how he drove the boat that day (in my opinion, faster than he should have for the conditions).

No problem, @Julian. Here are my comments:
Not sure what does your "faster than he should have" comment mean exactly, I kept the same speed before and after the tower collapsed if that gives you some perspective. I did not need to refuel, came in the tail of the group (excluding boats there were stuck - out of fuel). The conditions were not great, but there were no advisories, either. It's kind of what these boats are supposed to do - go out to sea. And yeah, I like to stay on plane when cruising. Not sure what else to add...

And - how about this one:

@swatski even with the smooth crossing today about 12 miles outside bimini @Ramblin Wreck wife said she heard a funny noise coming from the tower no BS my passenger side tower bolt backed completely out during the crossing. We screwed it back in but that was crazy for a smooth crossing.

Keep in mind, I received numerous PMs regarding the tower locking mechanism issues, from various members here who never posted.

As far as Yamaha is concerned, they can go and f@@@ themselves.
Please note, I only started this thread AFTER being completely screwed - made waste huge amount of my time and effort by being given misleading directions and statements that dragged on for few weeks, and ultimately being offered no help whatsoever - most of it documented in my notes and on tapes (Yamaha refused to provide a single piece of anything in writing throughout!).

I could add significantly more information here that I think would be embarrassing, someone dare me! I think Yamaha is well aware of the issue and their lack of action on it is a carefully calculated move.



Lets talk about statistics of this!

Interesting discussion. Not sure I agree with @2kwik4u assertion that these failures are statistically insignificant. If 4 towers collapsed out of 5000 boats sold, then sure, in terms of Polling/election statistics, this is insignificant. However, if as a result, 4 people were injured by these falling towers, or almost injured, then that becomes a statistic the NTSB would be interested in. The same applies to cars....if a car had a problem that can cause it to accelerate on its own, 4 in 5000 times, they will look at that and say....fix the issue (from my perspective). Even if they don't, it is good for members to know about the issue. It is primarily an issue for ocean boating where the towers take the most flexing....but could happen anywhere.

Well, we have two internal polls going on (both polls are laughably flawed, but what else can you do here?):
one is on the tower locking mechanism https://jetboaters.net/threads/poll-have-you-had-your-folding-forward-swept-tower-fail-bolts-back-out-sheer-etc.19539/
the other is on the Timing Chain breakage https://jetboaters.net/threads/poll-have-you-had-your-timing-chain-break-on-your-1-8l-engine-s.19540/

The latter poll concerning a "know issue" with the TC (can we agree on that?) can serve as an internal control of sorts, a surrogate for participation index. Maybe that will shed some light on statistical relevance of the tower issue? IDK.


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[2kwik4u]

I for one would love to see what kind of documentation Yamaha responded with. I figured you were tied down with a "gag order" or sorts and couldn't reveal anything.

I know if I was Yamaha I wouldn't have agreed to do a damn thing other than buy the boat back from you.

 

[haknslash]

Why are my polls laughably flawed? Someone was saying maybe there should be a poll and I made one. Fck me for taking an initiative on here. If someone has a better poll by all means post it or better yet, make a SUGGESTION for other poll questions. I'm just trying to get some data on here and help. Not trying to measure my dick or anyone else's. Can we please stop with the childish mud slinging and get to the point? We're all on this together but I swear to god this forum has turned into a big high school drama class and is quickly becoming a huge turnoff for me to even participate on here. I feel like sometimes I have to walk on egg shells in what I say and who I say what to on here. Shouldn't be that way IMHO.

 

[swatski]

I for one would love to see what kind of documentation Yamaha responded with. I figured you were tied down with a "gag order" or sorts and couldn't reveal anything.

I know if I was Yamaha I wouldn't have agreed to do a damn thing other than buy the boat back from you.

Well, this is the crazy part... We were totally easy to work with, totally non-apprehensive. We had given them the lead and asked exactly what do they want us to do. We did exactly what we were told. No arguments, all polite, friendly, and compliant.

I for one would love to see what kind of documentation Yamaha responded with.

Zero (none) documentation was provided by Yamaha - to us.
Interestingly, all (phone) communications eventually became a part of the deposition in a MO court. Interesting read!

I figured you were tied down with a "gag order" or sorts and couldn't reveal anything.

We offered to sign a release. We were super easy-going and ready to accept a variety of offers/solutions, sign off on whatever they would need. We clearly stated we were not interested in pursuing that, just wanted the boat/tower fixed.

I know if I was Yamaha I wouldn't have agreed to do a damn thing other than buy the boat back from you.

I know, right!? How about even just offering to fix the damage?
(At some point we actually had the boat at our dealer who had the work order ready to go - before Yamaha stopped him and ordered him to release the boat back to us, with nothing - no coverage under 1-year factory warranty, and 2 year extra YES, BTW)
In court - they lied and made shit up. One of the gems in their deposition was when their expert argued our aftermarket wake surfing ballast system that was installed in our boat was to blame for tower collapse!!! And I kid you not. The judge was a bit confused until she realized how completely asinine that argument was...

I really can not tell you how crazy I think they are. Their customer service/legal must be run by complete amateurs. This thread and the entire discussion could have been avoided entirely had they proceeded along one of many ways for them to do it right. Now, it looks like they are on record for refusing to acknowledge and act upon a serious consumer safety issue.

There is ZERO doubt in my mind the issue is real.

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[swatski]

Why are my polls laughably flawed?

Not your fault - you did the best anyone could, I think.
But - those are polls covering different issues with non-overlapping production dates, etc. etc.

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[haknslash]

That's why I specifically said if someone voted yes to TC failure they need to state their year, engine build date, etc. The poll system on here isn't easily editable once you create it. You can only add more questions, but not edit existing ones already created. Kind of sucks but I understand why it's made that way so s0meone can't mess with the vote statistics after people have already submitted their vote. For that I'm sorry if it doesn't have all the questions sorted in a easy to digest method. I made them quickly because I am sick as a dog right now and don't have a ton of energy. Just got back from wasting 2.5 hours of my life at a jack in the box doc so I'm sorry if I'm coming across abrasive on here. Not really my style. I'm here to help and that's all I like to do. I will gladly delete my polls and let someone take over on creating a better poll. I don't care and it won't hurt my feelings lol. I was just trying to get some data going.

Edit - I can't delete my polls. Sigh. Oh well I'm sorry guys if it's not the best. Just let me know how you want it setup and I can make changes to it. Or if an admin wants to nuke them and someone else create polls that's fine with me too.

 

[Julian]

So many companies get their undies in a twist too quickly vs doing the right thing quickly. This could have been a customer service win for them (pretty cheaply) but instead they ended up in court and lost. Hopefully they learned something. They even got mad at Bruce and I for raising the issue to them. Oh well....

 

[Ancient canoe]

Whatever the statistics, a mechanical issue has a lot less likely chance to cause serious bodily injury than a tower collapse. The level of acceptable failure should be a lot lower because the lawsuit won't be for repairs if it collapses on someone's head.

 

[haknslash]

@Julian or @Administrative please delete my polls. I can't delete them.

 

[Bruce]

@Julian or @Administrative please delete my polls. I can't delete them.

What polls are these?

 

[haknslash]

What polls are these?

These
TC failure poll https://jetboaters.net/threads/please-delete.19540/
Tower failure poll https://jetboaters.net/threads/please-delete.19539/

I will let someone else create a poll in the future.

 

[Weeb]

I took my tower down once to see if it would fit in a dry rack. When I went to put it back up I could tell the tower hole didn’t line up for the bolts without pushing and pulling on it. I looked at my wife and said WTF these things are going to strip the threads trying to do this all the time. I got a wet slip. I have had to tighten the bolts twice and I crank them as much as I can by hand. If I was driving to Bimini in rough water the last thing I would want to do is stop and check bolts half way there. Thanks to @swatski post I knew there was an issue. And there IS. Like others have said Yamaha needs to change the mount to something that works on their other boats that doesn’t strip or come loose and is easier to put the tower up and down.

 

[Brandon_SC]

@swatski My hat is off to you my friend. I have been watching this closely since your incident first occurred, and I commend you for updating your posts and supplying a much needed solution for those who could be hurt by their tower. You are a wonderful member of this forum, and I always pay attention to what you post [whether I agree or not]. Your posts are that informative and helpful. Thanks!

 

[swatski]

So many companies get their undies in a twist too quickly vs doing the right thing quickly. This could have been a customer service win for them (pretty cheaply) but instead they ended up in court and lost. Hopefully they learned something. They even got mad at Bruce and I for raising the issue to them. Oh well....

You said that very well, and I agree.

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[swatski]

I took my tower down once to see if it would fit in a dry rack. When I went to put it back up I could tell the tower hole didn’t line up for the bolts without pushing and pulling on it. I looked at my wife and said WTF these things are going to strip the threads trying to do this all the time. I got a wet slip. I have had to tighten the bolts twice and I crank them as much as I can by hand. If I was driving to Bimini in rough water the last thing I would want to do is stop and check bolts half way there. Thanks to @swatski post I knew there was an issue. And there IS. Like others have said Yamaha needs to change the mount to something that works on their other boats that doesn’t strip or come loose and is easier to put the tower up and down.

I agree, like others stated folding those up is best done with two people.

And BTW - those towers are GREAT for towing/water sports, w/solid factory hull mount reinforcements w/no issues, the locking bolts will NOT wiggle out from the tower when towing/pulling from the tow point, under pressure!

It's the locking mechanism fail when cruising that's the one to watch.

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[Weeb]

I agree, like others stated folding those up is best done with two people.

And BTW - those towers are GREAT for towing/water sports, w/solid factory hull mount reinforcements w/no issues, the locking bolts will NOT wiggle out from the tower when towing/pulling from the tow point, under pressure!

It's the locking mechanism fail when cruising that's the one to watch.

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I go out a lot by myself and knew there’d be an issue sooner or later with the bolts and threads. That’s why I went with the wet slip plus it has shore power to keep the batteries charged.

 

[2kwik4u]

I stepped away for a few days. had to drive home from Pittsburgh, then spent two days on the lake. Nice little escape from life there for a minute.

Had an interesting experience on Saturday involving this VERY subject.

Loading up the boat as normal, got the family together and in the truck and headed out. Had to stop for fuel, then for food, then made it to the lake. Upon arrival at the lake I found one of the bolts completely unthreaded and dangling. I immediately wondered if I was about to eat crow on this topic, or if I had somehow not threaded that side when I got the boat out of the garage. Had I just trailered 60miles with only one bolt in the tower? had it rattled out on the trip between home and ramp? What the damn hell is going on here. If nothing else the timing was a little unnerving after last weeks discussion here.

We had a great day on the water, and the bolts never showed any sign of loosening despite some pretty rough water, and plenty of watersports. I was hyper aware of checking them at this point, and was just this side of being neurotic about it.

Off the water and headed home, I stopped twice in the 60 mile trip to check them. Tight, every time. No problem. Had I really "forgotten" to tighten a side when I was putting the tower back up in the driveway? I had no real way of knowing, and asked the wife if she remembered anything unusual. She did not, but commented that our neighbor across the street has security cameras that point at our driveway. I sent him an email late last night asking if he would check the footage for me and see what he could see. The response this morning was both a relief and a n eye opener for me.

I only installed one in the driveway! WTF was wrong with me? How did I not get that done? Best we can tell from the footage, I had either the wife or the oldest boy come ask me a question from inside the garage and distracted me from the normal routine. I clearly only put in the starboard bolt, answered whatever question was asked, then proceeded to put the cover on and never went back to the port bolt.

This immediately solidified two things for certain; the pre-launch checklist WORKS. We don't have a written list, but we both have a mental list to check, and rarely do we forget something when launching as the wife and I double check each other along the way. I'll be instituting a "pre-trailering" checklist as well between her and I for the same reasons. The second is that the structure of a the threaded connection is absolutely not a concern. A 60 mile road trip with a single bolt out produced plenty of opportunity for the last remaining bolt to fail. It did not. I have the stops removed from tower to get it lower and into the garage, so if the bolt had failed, it would have most likely busted the cover, side windows, and steering wheel as well. Disaster narrowly avoided I think.