***WARNING*** 2015-18 YAMAHA “AR” BOAT OWNERS WITH FORWARD SWEPT WAKEBOARD TOWERS

[J-RAD]

Yes, it's done. It's been an interesting experience, I'd rather not go any further than to state costs of fixing damages have been covered.

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Well that's something! I can respect that, I commend you for seeing it thru to some sort of end.

 

[haknslash]

Trying to gauge how widespread this happens. How many members on here have their tower bolts constantly need to be adjusted throughout the day or are backing out on their own? If it's anything like the timing chain issue we would see this more visibly. Maybe it's being posted and I just haven't seen the thread but is there a single poll thread or something I can view to see all of those affected by this?

My bolts have never backed out and they are used every time we take the boat out since I store the boat in my garage. I am very mindful of threading them in, especially the starboard side since my tower plate was never aligned perfectly from the factory and requires pulling the tower towards me while I thread in the bolt. If I was someone not paying close attention or just a first time user the bolt wouldn't have gone in easily and could be cross threaded. The issue on my boat is a misalignment of the tower base relative to the tower itself. The centerlines of the tower hole and the tower base hole must be concentric or else it's going to be difficult to thread in the bolt and could result in someone cross threading them. When you thread in the bolt there should not be any twisting resistance until the bolt becomes seated. If there is any resistance then stop what you're doing and carefully back the bolt out and examine for any damage to the threads.

I don't see the tower itself as a bad design. There are many towers just like ours that are used on older wake boats, pontoons and runabouts. I've never taken my boat to Bimini but she's been airborne several times and slammed into big rollers and waves no matter if it's in the gulf or on the larger lakes. My boat has slammed down before and the bolts have never backed out. Not saying it doesn't happen as clearly some people have experienced this. I would just like to know what is the amount of people that have it happen?

 

[Robconn]

Trying to gauge how widespread this happens. How many members on here have their tower bolts constantly need to be adjusted throughout the day or are backing out on their own? If it's anything like the timing chain issue we would see this more visibly. Maybe it's being posted and I just haven't seen the thread but is there a single poll thread or something I can view to see all of those affected by this?

My bolts have never backed out and they are used every time we take the boat out since I store the boat in my garage. I am very mindful of threading them in, especially the starboard side since my tower plate was never aligned perfectly from the factory and requires pulling the tower towards me while I thread in the bolt. If I was someone not paying close attention or just a first time user the bolt wouldn't have gone in easily and could be cross threaded. The issue on my boat is a misalignment of the tower base relative to the tower itself. The centerlines of the tower hole and the tower base hole must be concentric or else it's going to be difficult to thread in the bolt and could result in someone cross threading them. When you thread in the bolt there should not be any twisting resistance until the bolt becomes seated. If there is any resistance then stop what you're doing and carefully back the bolt out and examine for any damage to the threads.

I don't see the tower itself as a bad design. There are many towers just like ours that are used on older wake boats, pontoons and runabouts. I've never taken my boat to Bimini but she's been airborne several times and slammed into big rollers and waves no matter if it's in the gulf or on the larger lakes. My boat has slammed down before and the bolts have never backed out. Not saying it doesn't happen as clearly some people have experienced this. I would just like to know what is the amount of people that have it happen?

I have only had two warranty issues with 2016 AR192. First was the dash above instrument cluster started to bubble at year 2. The denied claim twice. Said it was a blemish, not a defect in material. Then the next year the TIMING CHAIN. I have not had issues with tower. However, I do not use boat in rough water. Reading this issue though I now inspect tower regularly. When boat came back with rebuilt engine the service manager went ahead and replaced dash. The boat had 50 + hours when TC snapped.

 

[swatski]

Trying to gauge how widespread this happens. How many members on here have their tower bolts constantly need to be adjusted throughout the day or are backing out on their own? If it's anything like the timing chain issue we would see this more visibly. Maybe it's being posted and I just haven't seen the thread but is there a single poll thread or something I can view to see all of those affected by this?

My bolts have never backed out and they are used every time we take the boat out since I store the boat in my garage. I am very mindful of threading them in, especially the starboard side since my tower plate was never aligned perfectly from the factory and requires pulling the tower towards me while I thread in the bolt. If I was someone not paying close attention or just a first time user the bolt wouldn't have gone in easily and could be cross threaded. The issue on my boat is a misalignment of the tower base relative to the tower itself. The centerlines of the tower hole and the tower base hole must be concentric or else it's going to be difficult to thread in the bolt and could result in someone cross threading them. When you thread in the bolt there should not be any twisting resistance until the bolt becomes seated. If there is any resistance then stop what you're doing and carefully back the bolt out and examine for any damage to the threads.

I don't see the tower itself as a bad design. There are many towers just like ours that are used on older wake boats, pontoons and runabouts. I've never taken my boat to Bimini but she's been airborne several times and slammed into big rollers and waves no matter if it's in the gulf or on the larger lakes. My boat has slammed down before and the bolts have never backed out. Not saying it doesn't happen as clearly some people have experienced this. I would just like to know what is the amount of people that have it happen?

I'm glad your tower is fine and you like the design.

I personally know of at least eight cases of complete or near complete pull out. I believe not all owners involved are comfortable identifying themselves, I have no intention of posting for anyone. This is obviously a bit of a tricky situation where one must consider safety but also resale value etc.

For me, safety comes first and I would not hesitate to post this all over again - hoping the AR owners take notice.

With that said, I'm also done posting about it! About time!
I think there is enough information here for anyone interested to make their own conclusions.

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[haknslash]

I never said "I liked" the design nor is my tower "fine". Maybe you didn't read the rest of my post where I explained mine is far from perfect and that I have to do a little routine every single time I want to use it lol? Anyways I mainly said I didn't think it was a bad design since MANY boats have near the same exact tower design with locking bolts in the rear and if this were truly an issue with bolts holding the tower then you would see this FAR more prevalent across this forum and any other boating forum where a similar tower design is used.

I simply asked if there was any thread that had data to show how many people are affected. If people can't provide this data then it's really a moot point saying this is a known issue or that there are several boats affected or that this happens a lot. Without that data it's just hearsay. Look, I know you have a vested interest in the tower since it failed in you. I get it, I really do, but without knowing all the data out there're there's just nothing to come from this other than it could have been a freak accident or that 9 unlucky people (out of thousands) had their bolts do someone. Was it user/install error, tower base misalignment or something else? We will never known unless there is proof and data. Imagine if people didn't come forward with the timing chain issue and make it public? You think Yamaha would still be paying for their out of warranty engines? Nope. So IF there is a legitimate problem people need to come forward and forget about their resale value and keeping this issue in the closet. That will for sure never get an issue fixed or Yamaha involved.

Using resale value as an excuse for anyone out there who had a failure on their boat, then obviously that person cares more about the almighty dollar above all else. Pretty shitty thing someone would do especially if safety is involved IMO.

 

[J-RAD]

@haknslash, I don't mean to speak for @swatski but after 1 year + of dealing with the matter on many levels including a lawsuit and 22 pages of discussion here. I think he's just done disputing it...

Anyway, if you want numbers then perhaps start a new thread/poll (anonymous maybe) where people and add to the tally?

 

[robert cabrerea]

This just sucks. Bimini sounds fun. White nuckle and crazy the more I hear read about. No wonder the all knowing wife says " you can go out in the ocean on your own" these are lake boats at best a bay boat.

 

[Robconn]

I'm glad your tower is fine and you like the design.

I personally know of at least eight cases of complete or near complete pull out. I believe not all owners involved are comfortable identifying themselves, I have no intention of posting for anyone. This is obviously a bit of a tricky situation where one must consider safety but also resale value etc.

For me, safety comes first and I would not hesitate to post this all over again - hoping the AR owners take notice.

With that said, I'm also done posting about it! About time!
I think there is enough information here for anyone interested to make their own conclusions.

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I'm glad your tower is fine and you like the design.

I personally know of at least eight cases of complete or near complete pull out. I believe not all owners involved are comfortable identifying themselves, I have no intention of posting for anyone. This is obviously a bit of a tricky situation where one must consider safety but also resale value etc.

For me, safety comes first and I would not hesitate to post this all over again - hoping the AR owners take notice.

With that said, I'm also done posting about it! About time!
I think there is enough information here for anyone interested to make their own conclusions.

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i feel the same Way with my warranty issues. Hopefully that’s all behind me now, and time to focus on the fun stuff. I’m glad I could contribute on the forum with both the good and bad which others can benefit from.

 

[haknslash]

@haknslash, I don't mean to speak for @swatski but after 1 year + of dealing with the matter on many levels including a lawsuit and 22 pages of discussion here. I think he's just done disputing it...

Anyway, if you want numbers then perhaps start a new thread/poll (anonymous maybe) where people and add to the tally?

I understand he would grow tired of this topic. I wasn't trying to cast doubt on him and he should hopefully understand that. I'm mainly concerned with finding the data to see how widespread this is/or isn't happening across the jetboaters community. Just trying to bring light to this is all.

At any rate I've created a poll thread to see if people will participate https://jetboaters.net/threads/have-you-had-you-forward-swept-tower-fail-bolts-back-out-sheer-etc.19539/

 

[swatski]

..


I understand he would grow tired of this topic. I wasn't trying to cast doubt on him and he should hopefully understand that. I'm mainly concerned with finding the data to see how widespread this is/or isn't happening across the jetboaters community. Just trying to bring light to this is all.

At any rate I've created a poll thread to see if people will participate https://jetboaters.net/threads/have-you-had-you-forward-swept-tower-fail-bolts-back-out-sheer-etc.19539/

Why don't you append the tower poll with a TC poll, as a reference to a known "real issue", and surrogate for participatory management.

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[haknslash]

Well we don't really have a formal poll for the TC issue however it seems Bruce's TC thread serves as the main hub for any and all TC issues and discoveries. It's worded close to a poll so I guess that's why people see it https://jetboaters.net/threads/have-you-had-a-1-8-timing-chain-failure-was-it-in-warranty-and-how-has-yamaha-handled-it.10799/. Maybe he can add a poll to it? I can create a poll for the TC as well but not sure some of the original affected people that posted in Bruce's thread still hang around here and would vote for the TC poll.

 

[2kwik4u]

That is correct. I came up with a solution that I refer to as a "part two" in my fix.
There are other way to accomplish that of course, but unfortunately none taken by the OEM.
My "fix" is very low tech and has drawbacks, but seems to work well as far as preventing a pull out.

Of course the OEM hasn't taken action. These are isolated and statistically insignificant occurrences. You have (apparent) documentation of 8 instances. I don't know sales numbers for forward swept equipped towers with this attachment configuration, but would wager it's at least two orders of magnitude larger than these instances. QC and design changes are driven on statistics. The OEM isn't going to change a statistically proven design.

I think you are completely missing the point.

"Robust" is not a subjective word/definition here. It implies ruggedness that can only be revealed in relevant field tests necessary to back up any mechanical design's theoretical considerations.

Any mechanical design is only as good as its field testing reports.

Most mechanical failures in boating, car industry, and space exploration are NOT due to a lack of theoretical considerations. In case of the AR240 tower, the design is actually robust for pulling/towing objects but fails (repeatedly) where it matters most - cruising in rough water.

Even the best thought out/brilliant designs can fail rigorous field testing. Yamaha used to test their boats and towers as documented in at least one 2008(?) leaked factory video. There is no question in my mind that that kind of testing would reveal the need for improvements in the 2016 model AR240 tower locking mechanism.

Robust as defined by Meriam-Webster, includes several definitions. The one in play here is "capable of performing without failure under a wide range of conditions" So far we have anecdotal evidence of 7 issues, and one documented failure. So there has been a singular set of conditions that has caused the tower to fail. Rough sees combined with a damaged mechanism. Going back to the statistical reference above, this is insignificant in comparison to the number of boats sold with this design. We have a wide range of boaters here using their towers for a wide range of activities in a wide range of conditions. I'm unsure how you can equate what is currently a single failure as evidence that it isn't a robust system.

I'm not saying that leaving it as it is from factory is a mistake. To each his/her own.

No, that is EXACTLY what you are saying. You have repeatedly told everyone who will listen that this design is faulty, and must be repaired/modified or doom and damage will befall them in short order. This is chicken little style spreading of misinformation.

If you have the time and the attention span to keep a watchful eye on the tower locking wheel-bolts - by all means do it!
If you leave the boat in someone else custody, be it a dealer, don't forget to carefully examine the threads keeping in mind the risk of cross thread which may not be obvious to an untrained eye.

I don't see this as an option. People should make the time. You have equated this issue to personal safety a number of times, and rightfully so. It hit you in the head while underway. Saying "if you have the time" to check these is like saying "if you have the time" to putting on a seatbelt. Is this an issue of safety, or is it just something you should check when you get a minute? For me, I make the time, and suggest others do the same. This comes back to the acceptable risk conversation, take the risks you want, and I'll take the risks I want, but to say "if you have the time" is NOT the same as saying it's a life safety issue. Lets be clear in our positions here.

In regard to your "correct installation and utilization" comment, I do not actually know what that is... Your statements in that regard may be correct but are not backed by anything in the operator manual.

How have we gotten to here and this not been made clear. The manual is lacking, of course I'm not backed up by the manual. The dealers can't be trusted to be informative (as evidenced by the guy that hydrolocked an engine the other day). The OEM can't be trusted to be completely forthcoming either. Where is the personal responsibility here to ensure that your equipment is in good working order? This is most certainly a case of if you don't know, ask. I would expect any person that hears the tower rattling because of a loose connection, or a connection that is significantly difficult to engage, to ask why, and is this normal. Perhaps I expect to much and should wait to be told how to protect myself.

What I do know is that these bolts back up in different boats on a regular basis. What else do I need to know not to be worried???????

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Again, 7 anecdotal occurrences (who don't step forward), and one documented complete failure is not a "regular basis". I can't respond to the second portion, as my risk level is clearly different than yours and I have no idea what will make you feel better at this point. No amount of science has gotten you there, and I don't do religion, so I'm at a loss.



So.........as a response to all others that read this. Please take all the information you can find, listen to as many people as you can, do as much research as you like, and make a decision on how you feel about the watercraft that you own or use. It is ultimately your responsibility to ensure safety of yourself, your crew, and your property. Just like any other activity, I encourage everyone to evaluate the risks involved and proceed as they see fit.

For me, the tower works great. It's a damn simple design that works quickly, easily, and provides a functionality I like. I'll continue to raise/lower my tower twice for each outing, and won't think twice about it on the water. Hell I pull a tube from it with my 7yr old in the water, and sleep in a hammock hung from it with my 4month old son. Clearly my trust in the system is high.

 

[Speedling]

Bloody hell, why don't yall just gimmie one of these malfunctioning boats already! No more risk to you! We would both sleep well at night!

 

[swatski]

Of course the OEM hasn't taken action. These are isolated and statistically insignificant occurrences. You have (apparent) documentation of 8 instances. I don't know sales numbers for forward swept equipped towers with this attachment configuration, but would wager it's at least two orders of magnitude larger than these instances. QC and design changes are driven on statistics. The OEM isn't going to change a statistically proven design.



Robust as defined by Meriam-Webster, includes several definitions. The one in play here is "capable of performing without failure under a wide range of conditions" So far we have anecdotal evidence of 7 issues, and one documented failure. So there has been a singular set of conditions that has caused the tower to fail. Rough sees combined with a damaged mechanism. Going back to the statistical reference above, this is insignificant in comparison to the number of boats sold with this design. We have a wide range of boaters here using their towers for a wide range of activities in a wide range of conditions. I'm unsure how you can equate what is currently a single failure as evidence that it isn't a robust system.



No, that is EXACTLY what you are saying. You have repeatedly told everyone who will listen that this design is faulty, and must be repaired/modified or doom and damage will befall them in short order. This is chicken little style spreading of misinformation.



I don't see this as an option. People should make the time. You have equated this issue to personal safety a number of times, and rightfully so. It hit you in the head while underway. Saying "if you have the time" to check these is like saying "if you have the time" to putting on a seatbelt. Is this an issue of safety, or is it just something you should check when you get a minute? For me, I make the time, and suggest others do the same. This comes back to the acceptable risk conversation, take the risks you want, and I'll take the risks I want, but to say "if you have the time" is NOT the same as saying it's a life safety issue. Lets be clear in our positions here.



How have we gotten to here and this not been made clear. The manual is lacking, of course I'm not backed up by the manual. The dealers can't be trusted to be informative (as evidenced by the guy that hydrolocked an engine the other day). The OEM can't be trusted to be completely forthcoming either. Where is the personal responsibility here to ensure that your equipment is in good working order? This is most certainly a case of if you don't know, ask. I would expect any person that hears the tower rattling because of a loose connection, or a connection that is significantly difficult to engage, to ask why, and is this normal. Perhaps I expect to much and should wait to be told how to protect myself.




Again, 7 anecdotal occurrences (who don't step forward), and one documented complete failure is not a "regular basis". I can't respond to the second portion, as my risk level is clearly different than yours and I have no idea what will make you feel better at this point. No amount of science has gotten you there, and I don't do religion, so I'm at a loss.



So.........as a response to all others that read this. Please take all the information you can find, listen to as many people as you can, do as much research as you like, and make a decision on how you feel about the watercraft that you own or use. It is ultimately your responsibility to ensure safety of yourself, your crew, and your property. Just like any other activity, I encourage everyone to evaluate the risks involved and proceed as they see fit.

For me, the tower works great. It's a damn simple design that works quickly, easily, and provides a functionality I like. I'll continue to raise/lower my tower twice for each outing, and won't think twice about it on the water. Hell I pull a tube from it with my 7yr old in the water, and sleep in a hammock hung from it with my 4month old son. Clearly my trust in the system is high.

I really do not want to continue this discussion, as I have said what I wanted to say and I do not have anything else to offer.
But - I'm so confused!
Are you saying these bolts do NOT back out/wiggle out on their own, or - if they do - it's because the particular owners are at fault?

Are you questioning the veracity of accounts of these bolts wiggling and vibrating out?

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[2kwik4u]

I really do not want to continue this discussion, as I have said what I wanted to say and I do not have anything else to offer.
But - I'm so confused!
Are you saying these bolts do NOT back out/wiggle out on their own, or - if they do - it's because the particular owners are at fault?

Are you questioning the veracity of accounts of these bolts wiggling and vibrating out?

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I'm saying that the bolts that have walked/backed out are statistically insignificant in comparison to the number of boats sold.

To be 100% clear. SOME bolts have backed out. Those that do back out are most likely damaged at some level. Who is at fault for the damage is unknown, and most likely never will be known. It very well could be the owners fault, but we don't know. You are now both jumping to conclusions, as well as spreading misinformation of this "widespread" problem.

And yes I am questioning the veracity of the accounts. I've now seen 3 posts of problems, and one complete failure. The rest is hearsay at this point. If it's an issue, and it's from a member here, they should step forward and say so. Without clarity of data and sources we can not determine if this is going to become statistically significant, or if these are isolated incidents. Who are you protecting from not saying who it is, and who are they protecting from not admitting they have an issue?

 

[swatski]

I'm saying that the bolts that have walked/backed out are statistically insignificant in comparison to the number of boats sold.

To be clear: I know nothing about your boat (AR190s), those obviously have different size towers and I don't have an opinion, really.

As far as AR240s, what I know is that on the way to Bimini in 2017 there were 5 or 6 boats in my group 2015+ AR240s of which three (3) experienced a complete bolt pull out, @ThatJeepGuy , @Rob9550, and myself included, so - I saw it with my own eyes.
(Statistically speaking - that's what? half...?)
There are 2 or 3 additional reports in this thread, and several PM communications to me.

Hearsay? Whatever, dude. It means nothing to me if your are convinced or not. As far as I'm concerned, I put the information out here, and I am done. I don't think I have ever been called chicken little in my life, but I think that says more about you than me.

I have nothing more to prove here, for now. I was able to convince a judge and a court in Missouri that Yamaha is responsible for my damages, and that's all that matters for now. They played dirty but it did not work. I have no intention of making this a bigger deal than it is. I hope no one gets hurt but I will not be shocked if someone does. I was very lucky and I have a stupid hard head (lucky for Yamaha).

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[2kwik4u]

Wow... Statistically how many Yamaha boat owners are NOT members here? I’ve met probably a dozen local Yamaha owners that have never even heard of jetboaters.net so how could they report their many boat issues?

Last year one of my handbolts came loose and jammed on the last 2 threads before coming out. My local dealer tried unsuccessfully to overnight new ones to Bimini but FedEx and the airline couldn’t get things sorted out. A local Bahamian was able lend me a grinder to clean the threads myself, and absolutely refused any compensation.

I’m always over prepared. Safety is our #1 priority. I’ve checked these bolts every day and weekend trip, even before they backed out. I’m the only person that touches these on my boat.

These were 100% tight before we left for Bimini, checked as I untied from the dock. My fender lines hang on these bolts to act as a reminder to check them. Within 2 hours it backed out.

I’m not here to argue this. If you want to give folks false hope that their tower will never fall then that’s your business....

My false hope encpuragement is equally beset by others chicken little style warnings.

I sincerely hope all of this bickering can help potential new owners make informed decisions when they come here and read threads before buying a new boat. Sadly, they'll probably only see the giant "WARNING" thread title, and go along their way.

Those of us that visit here often will easily decide on our own if this is really a problem or not.

I'll finish up by saying it's clearly not a major problem as I don't think anyone has sold their boat because of it.

 

[Julian]

Interesting discussion. Not sure I agree with @2kwik4u assertion that these failures are statistically insignificant. If 4 towers collapsed out of 5000 boats sold, then sure, in terms of Polling/election statistics, this is insignificant. However, if as a result, 4 people were injured by these falling towers, or almost injured, then that becomes a statistic the NTSB would be interested in. The same applies to cars....if a car had a problem that can cause it to accelerate on its own, 4 in 5000 times, they will look at that and say....fix the issue (from my perspective). Even if they don't, it is good for members to know about the issue. It is primarily an issue for ocean boating where the towers take the most flexing....but could happen anywhere.

This just sucks. Bimini sounds fun. White nuckle and crazy the more I hear read about. No wonder the all knowing wife says " you can go out in the ocean on your own" these are lake boats at best a bay boat.

These boats are fine in the ocean. I would like @swatski to be clearer in how he drove the boat that day (in my opinion, faster than he should have for the conditions).

 

[djetok]

This just sucks. Bimini sounds fun. White nuckle and crazy the more I hear read about. No wonder the all knowing wife says " you can go out in the ocean on your own" these are lake boats at best a bay boat.

Mother Yamaha had its own boat (212x) in Bimini and a video of it wakeboarding in the same places that this group goes too.

 

[Arcadyus]

I would think that 4 outta 5000 failures would be an acceptable number, considering it's less than 1%.