2nd bilge pump

[Hezi]

So, bilge pump is very important. A $65k+- boat is equipped with one. What if it fails? What if you get a leak and the pump is overwhelmed? My friend had to replace both motors after his boat flooded when he forgot to close the drain plug in the rear. This lead me to install a 2nd pump.

I did search the forum here but found little info on the 240/242 regarding this topic. I went ahead and bought an "ATTWOOD SAHARA S1100 1100 GPH 12V AUTOMATIC MARINE BILGE PUMP" from eBay for $60. The good thing about this pump is that it has a built in float and 3 position; On/Off/ Auto.

The hull by the motor compartment is double. I had to cut a hole through the upper layer not knowing what I would find underneath. I used a Dremel tool and try and cut as clean as possible. The conditions I was working in were not ideal and I was rushing through the job on a hot day. I wish I would have taken my time and cut a smaller more accurate hole. Note the fiberglass cross beam I exposed. Here you can drill and screw in the strainer if you are focusing on locating the new hole right above it.

Next, I epoxied the strainer and screw it in to the beam with stainless still screw. I urge you to take your time and do it right the first time. JB Weld epoxy would work. While the epoxy was curing, I ran to west marine and got me 10 ft (I needed only 7') of the over sized hose the pump takes, a through hull bilge outlet, and clamps. I suggest you get this all online before working on your boat. 10' of this hose alone cost me $55 at West Marine, and I had to take a chrome looking plastic outlet since this was the only one they had and I wanted this over with (the boat outlet is black, it would have been nice to have a black one next to it as well). I had to drill the hull right next to the existing bilge outlet, I had to drill the motor compartment wall, and run the hose next to the existing one. Mind you, this is a larger heavier and less flexible hose comparing to the existing one. After the epoxy cured, and after clamping the hose to the pump, I had to warm the hose with a hair dry blower for the hose to flex enough and not to put pressure and brake the strainer (the hose curve right by the pump upward). After I will take it to the water, the general heat in this compartment, will mold the hose to its final bends (note the white hose).

Here are the tools I used:

I went ahead and ordered 3 wire water tight plug by Delphi from eBay. This is the best I know and I used it on my Hobie TI project. Note if you go with it, you will need to have a special crimping tool and might as well get extra pins. Good chance you will destroy one or two in the process of learning to install this plug. Also check for the pins gauge. You can google this "Delphi Weather Pack 3 Pin Sealed Connector Kit 16-14 GA".
I spliced into the existing bilge wires ground to ground, and hot to on on the Attwood. A third wire which lead to the "Auto" on the Attwood I wired straight to the positive on the "House" battery (in my case I have two of them) through a 7.5 amp fuse. This way, when the existing bilge is working, the larger secondary kicks in along side. If the boat is off, I forgot to apply "auto bilge" function, or what have you reason you can think of, as soon as the water lever goes up, the float which is directly wired will kick the pump on.

I tested it this weekend and it's working like a charm. The first time I will find myself boating in sweet water, I will open the rear drain plug. I am curious to find out if the two pumps can pump water faster than the boat takes. When I do I will report back. Till than, I hope this helps

 

[LayneG]

I know this is from last year, but any update on this?

 

[Hezi]

Never tried to test if the pumps can pump faster than water coming in from open plug. But it feels good to know I have back up to the 1 stock pump

 

[Julian]

Nice mod! If I ever decide to do this, I don't think I'd bother cutting through to the sub bilge, I'd just screw it down to the engine compartment floor. My thought is this is a backup....doesn't need to be as low. I would also install a bilge alarm with the 2nd pump, so that IF it ever did trigger, I would get an audible alarm that the backup was triggered and investigate the cause ASAP. I installed a bilge alarm in my last boat, but not the 2nd bilge pump.....figured that knowing the water was rising would be important. Bilge alarm install is linked in my signature.

 

[swatski]

Not sure I follow the logic of having a bilge pump mounted pretty high up there in the middle of the engine compartment in our boats. Not a criticism, just wondering/thinking out loud.

I'm thinking:
The (double) floor of the engine bay is pretty high (maybe a foot?) above the actuall bottom of the keel.
If a cooling hose or cleanout plug fail while cruising - there will be A TON of water accumulating (in the stern, increasingly pitched lower) before that OEM pump in the engine bay has a chance to sense water and kick in (as it is not only high but also pretty far forward relative to the transom/stern).
In the above scenario, coming off plane would cause sloshing the water forward and risk swamping the air intakes... (Not good.)

I do not understand why Yamaha is choosing that spot for their "bilge" pump, and not the actual bilge. Incidentally, they also don't seem to be able to decide how to control the bilge pump as they seem to change it from year to year.
I decided to install my (secondary) bilge pump in... the bilge.

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[MidnightRider]

Not sure I follow the logic of having a bilge pump mounted pretty high up there in the middle of the engine compartment in our boats. Not a criticism, just wondering/thinking out loud.

I'm thinking:
The (double) floor of the engine bay is pretty high (maybe a foot?) above the actuall bottom of the keel.
If a cooling hose or cleanout plug fail while cruising - there will be A TON of water accumulating (in the stern, increasingly pitched lower) before that OEM pump in the engine bay has a chance to sense water and kick in (as it is not only high but also pretty far forward relative to the transom/stern).
In the above scenario, coming off plane would cause sloshing the water forward and risk swamping the air intakes... (Not good.)

I do not understand why Yamaha is choosing that spot for their "bilge" pump, and not the actual bilge. Incidentally, they also don't seem to be able to decide how to control the bilge pump as they seem to change it from year to year.
I decided to install my (secondary) bilge pump in... the bilge.

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A foot?? Is your engine bay that different from mine? My engine bay has a "sump" area in the middle. The engine mounts are maybe a foot off the bottom but the bottom of the "sump" area of the engine bay is maybe 1-2" inches from the very point of the keel. I know because when I was messing with the bilge pump I could stick my finger inside the point of the keel on the outer shell and was maybe up to my 2nd knuckle in relation to the inner shell. The inner shell has a hole cut out and the bilge pump sits on a brace that goes across right on top of the keel "point". when my bilge pump kicks on there is maybe 3" (depending on how the boat is sitting) in the very bottom hole of the back bilge area. In fact I think because of the way the boat sits in the water there is more water towards the front of the boat than in the bilge area. But yeah my bilge pump sits maybe 1-2" off the bottom of the keel point (outer shell).


EDIT:
Here is a very crude sketch of what I can see and feel in the bottom of my engine bay (thickness of the fiberglass work in shells and braces not accounted for obviously.

 

[Hezi]

Can you post pictures @swatski ??? The place I chose was the lowest I thought I could access. Could I go lower? I wasn't aware of it.
@Julian, I agree, you can easily mount it without a cutout, but it will kick in when the main will be submerged (somewhat). I wanted both pumps to work simultaneously.

Took the boat out for the first time this weekend. It was a blast. Last year I had the best summer I ever had in NYC area thanks to this boat. Just need the remaining of the Seadeck installed and figure out the annoying check engine and we are 100% season ready. I guess I will have to take it to a dealer for the check engine light. Anyway to scan this myself? (sorry I am off topic, but I couldn't find anything)

 

[Beachbummer]

This set up is very nice, but without an alarm you may be surprised by high water when is too late. Something to alert you to the fact the second pump is running would move you from much much better to excellent.

 

[swatski]

Can you post pictures @swatski ??? The place I chose was the lowest I thought I could access. Could I go lower? I wasn't aware of it.
@Julian, I agree, you can easily mount it without a cutout, but it will kick in when the main will be submerged (somewhat). I wanted both pumps to work simultaneously.

Took the boat out for the first time this weekend. It was a blast. Last year I had the best summer I ever had in NYC area thanks to this boat. Just need the remaining of the Seadeck installed and figure out the annoying check engine and we are 100% season ready. I guess I will have to take it to a dealer for the check engine light. Anyway to scan this myself? (sorry I am off topic, but I couldn't find anything)

https://jetboaters.net/threads/2nd-bilge-pump-versus-bilge-alarm.22130/[HASH=153]#post[/HASH]-376234

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[swatski]

A foot?? Is your engine bay that different from mine? My engine bay has a "sump" area in the middle. The engine mounts are maybe a foot off the bottom but the bottom of the "sump" area of the engine bay is maybe 1-2" inches from the very point of the keel. I know because when I was messing with the bilge pump I could stick my finger inside the point of the keel on the outer shell and was maybe up to my 2nd knuckle in relation to the inner shell. The inner shell has a hole cut out and the bilge pump sits on a brace that goes across right on top of the keel "point". when my bilge pump kicks on there is maybe 3" (depending on how the boat is sitting) in the very bottom hole of the back bilge area. In fact I think because of the way the boat sits in the water there is more water towards the front of the boat than in the bilge area. But yeah my bilge pump sits maybe 1-2" off the bottom of the keel point (outer shell).


EDIT:
Here is a very crude sketch of what I can see and feel in the bottom of my engine bay (thickness of the fiberglass work in shells and braces not accounted for obviously.
View attachment 94692

Okay, let me look at it! I could be off by a few inches!
When sitting in the water, the lowest point in the hull is actually way forward of the engine bay, right around the helm area.
But either way my secondary pump in the bilge sits lower than the OEM pump, regardless if the boat is leveled, moving or not.

Not to be argumentative but here is what I do know:
The OEM pump sits at least few (a few? - I'm checking it) inches above the keel/bottom of the hull.
Those OEM pumps need to be sittting in at least 2" of water - to actually pump water up the hose.
With the boat on plane (bow up) the stern can literally fill with water (think of a cooling hose coming loose or cleanout plug partially undone), as the boat's pitch changes the OEM pump will not activate until there is probably foot of standing water in the bilge when leveled up, no joke. It is that ridiculous.
The air filter boxes have their openings reaching down pretty low and there is actual risk of water aspiration if water is sloshing inside the engine compartment/bay.

I think the OP secondary is pretty awesome and 1,000 times better than not having any backup at all.
I do not understand the Yamaha logic in placing the bilge pump way ABOVE the lowest point in the hull, especially when on plane. I think they may have tried to compromise, thinking the lowest point when in the water (say wet slipping) being far forward, but it is a bad compromise, IMO.

Ever wondered where is all the water coming from when you open the drain plug on the trailer? You can have tens of gallons of water in the boat without the OEM pump activating!

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[MidnightRider]

Okay, let me look at it! I could be off by a few inches!
When sitting in the water, the lowest point in the hull is actually way forward of the engine bay, right around the helm area.
But either way my secondary pump in the bilge sits lower than the OEM pump, regardless if the boat is leveled, moving or not.

Not to be argumentative but here is what I do know:
The OEM pump sits at least few (a few? - I'm checking it) inches above the keel/bottom of the hull.
Those OEM pumps need to be sittting in at least 2" of water - to actually pump water up the hose.
With the boat on plane (bow up) the stern can literally fill with water (think of a cooling hose coming loose or cleanout plug partially undone), as the boat's pitch changes the OEM pump will not activate until there is probably foot of standing water in the bilge when leveled up, no joke. It is that ridiculous.
The air filter boxes have their openings reaching down pretty low and there is actual risk of water aspiration if water is sloshing inside the engine compartment/bay.

I think the OP secondary is pretty awesome and 1,000 times better than not having any backup at all.
I do not understand the Yamaha logic in placing the bilge pump way ABOVE the lowest point in the hull, especially when on plane. I think they may have tried to compromise, thinking the lowest point when in the water (say wet slipping) being far forward, but it is a bad compromise, IMO.

Ever wondered where is all the water coming from when you open the drain plug on the trailer? You can have tens of gallons of water in the boat without the OEM pump activating!

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Yeah I’m not disagreeing with you on the placement of the pump - the rear bilge area would be a much better place. As it is, the water flows past the pump and gathers either in the rear bilge or the front of the boat. My only wonder was that your bilge pump wasn’t mounted to the bottom of the outer hull shell. Mine is mounted to the outer shell on a brace, it could not be any lower in the hull than where it is, unless you epoxied it directly to the hull shell rather than on a brace that is fiberglassed into the outer shell. The same shell that makes up the rear bilge bottom is the same shell that my bilge pump is mounted to. The only difference in height between the two is boat attitude.

 

[swatski]

Yeah I’m not disagreeing with you on the placement of the pump - the rear bilge area would be a much better place. As it is, the water flows past the pump and gathers either in the rear bilge or the front of the boat. My only wonder was that your bilge pump wasn’t mounted to the bottom of the outer hull shell. Mine is mounted to the outer shell on a brace, it could not be any lower in the hull than where it is, unless you epoxied it directly to the hull shell rather than on a brace that is fiberglassed into the outer shell. The same shell that makes up the rear bilge bottom is the same shell that my bilge pump is mounted to. The only difference in height between the two is boat attitude.

I have been crawling all around the boat tonight doing my cockpit LED install, so I looked at things again.

The OEM "bilge" pump is mounted really far forward, approx. 4ft forward of the transom (add another 2ft for swim deck)


In my boat, the OEM pump sits less than 1" under the upper floor skin, very shallow


...which is approx. 6-7" below the shafts (for reference)


The shafts (see the pump cone tip) sit about 12-13" above the bottom of the keel


So, you were right! the OEM pump does not sit a foot above the AK... "only" about a half a foot.

The bottom line, my auxiliary pump installed close to the bottom of the actual bilge, by the transom, will start pumping before the OEM has a chance. So I guess my aux is my primary, and the OEM becomes the secondary. Problem solved, lol.
No, not really, I still have a bunch of water draining out when I open the drain plug, lol, ...

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[bronze_10]

So my boat is a bit older than the ones here but my bilge doesnt work as I thought it would.. I installed an 1100 GPh bilge approximately one foot in front of the rear drain plug. My thoughts are each time you hit the gas, water will transfer to the back of the boat. But the only time I see a bilge pump activate is about twice an outting for like 2 seconds when everyone is swimming or hanging out in the back. But it's the stock bilge that spits water for a second and not the one in the back that I thought was lower. I always thought that was weird!

 

[swatski]

So my boat is a bit older than the ones here but my bilge doesnt work as I thought it would.. I installed an 1100 GPh bilge approximately one foot in front of the rear drain plug. My thoughts are each time you hit the gas, water will transfer to the back of the boat. But the only time I see a bilge pump activate is about twice an outting for like 2 seconds when everyone is swimming or hanging out in the back. But it's the stock bilge that spits water for a second and not the one in the back that I thought was lower. I always thought that was weird!

The pitch is very different when sitting in the water vs riding on plane, and water shifts accordingly.

When floating off-plane the low point is NOT at the articulating keel/stern. The bottom (keel) at midship/bow will draft few inches deeper than the keel at the stern.

View attachment 64261

Just look at any pic of a new 24' sitting in the water. Or @captras sig pic - above.

And that is also why water doesn't drain into the bilge until the boat is on plane (or on a trailer) - with the bow way up.

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Being an older model owner, yes both me and the boat, I have been looking for info to see if Yamaha has fixed this issue before I invest in a new(er) boat. It would be nice to be able to leave off the mooring/towing/bow/cockpit covers at the marina occasionally. But those pop up thunderstorms which happen now and then will put water in the boat that will drain to the bow, not the scupper, and rise until it reaches the ski locker door seal. Water will fill the front edge of the gutter and leak past the seal and into the locker/bilge, yes even a new one with the latch adjusted properly. The mooring covers keep the water out, but hides the issue of water draining the wrong way. Pour some water in the bow while afloat and watch where it goes, do not let your weight effect its movement. I always see water in the ski locker drain and none at the bilge pump until the keel angle changes at lower speed before plane. And even then, the pump is so high off the keel thru the engine floor I rarely see it pump. So there will always be water down there until I pull the boat out of water. My fix for the deck drainage issue was tying about 325#s of ballast bag on the upper swim platform. It is a PITA, but it works to drain water aft to the scupper. I know I ranted off topic for a minute, but I consider this a deal breaker for me on a new purchase. Does the deck on your newer boats drain this same way?

For me, I worry about a situation where you would have water intrusion at cruise or WOT when I would not be able to notice it for a while. Water shifts to the back then.

It’s kind of the same as if your drain plug is not in - and you realize it while sitting in the middle of the lake. The best you can do is run as fast as you can, pushing the water aft, it will actually drain out partially before you can beach.

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[MidnightRider]

@swatski makes more sense what you are saying now that I see what you are talking about. Does look like you actually may have a bit more space between your outer and inner hull in the engine "sump" area than me as well. I don't have that flat spot on the bottom of mine, mine is a basically a subtle 'V' to the bottom of the engine bay. There is about 1-2" of space max between the outer and inner hull in that spot on my boat so that is what I meant that the bilge pump sits as low as it can go there. The attitude of the boat makes all the difference. When my boat is just sitting in the water I have the same depth of water sitting in the engine bay as I do in the rear bilge ( I think there is more actually up front in the boat than either of those positions). As you say though, under power is a different situation as all the water runs and gathers in the back. At any rate it stands that its strange they didn't put the bilge pump in the back - at least then when you get up and go all of it can get pumped out.

 

[Julian]

At any rate it stands that its strange they didn't put the bilge pump in the back - at least then when you get up and go all of it can get pumped out.

Since they used to put the bilge pumps in the "true bilge" area when they first started building these boats (my LX210 for example) I think they took customer feedback and moved them into the "engine room". Why? Because when you put it in the true bilge, it becomes effectively inaccessible without dismantling the clean out tray and standing on your head! This means you can't to your annual maintenance of cleaning the bilge pump screen without a lot more work. So I for one am happy they moved it to the engine bay.

Both positions discussed are good for a secondary bilge pump. I do still like the idea of a bilge alarm too....

 

[swatski]

Since they used to put the bilge pumps in the "true bilge" area when they first started building these boats (my LX210 for example) I think they took customer feedback and moved them into the "engine room". Why? Because when you put it in the true bilge, it becomes effectively inaccessible without dismantling the clean out tray and standing on your head! This means you can't to your annual maintenance of cleaning the bilge pump screen without a lot more work. So I for one am happy they moved it to the engine bay.

Both positions discussed are good for a secondary bilge pump. I do still like the idea of a bilge alarm too....

I access mine (in the bilge) by reaching down the little hatch in the middle of the tray...

Thought may also be worth mentioning it is actually way easier (for me) than testing the OEM pump in the engine compartment. Yes, YMMV, lol, if you are young, nimble and better yet - lanky - you may not have that issue!

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[Beachbummer]

Remember, the second pump extends your available time from the moment the leak starts to the time you are screwed, but it's the alarm that lets you know that your timer has started.

 

[swatski]

Remember, the second pump extends your available time from the moment the leak starts to the time you are screwed, but it's the alarm that lets you know that your timer has started.

That is a good point!
I think the Connext shows when the OEM bilge pump is activated.
Time to read the manual again. This thread has been a good reminder!

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[Hezi]

I am convinced. What is the alarm you recommend? Is it a stand alone float which close a circuit when water level is up?