Conversion to LiFePo batteries

[adrianp89]

The battle born is $800…. Seems $400 for same style on Amazon, am I missing something?

 

[FSH 210 Sport]

So I forgot to charge the Tracker/lithium trolling motor batteries last night and went out fishing today. I used the motor a couple of days ago and would estimate about 3 hrs of medium/light use. After about an hour and half today the motor turned off as the batteries were out of juice. So 4 to 5 1/2 hours of use. Does this sound about right? The two Trackers are 100Ah.

First of all, sorry to hear that your batteries crapped out on your day..

No it does not.. however, thinking about it, you have a 24V trolling motor, with two 100Ah tracker LiFePO4 batteries which is roughly 2.2KWh’s, at what 100% DOD the BMS (I’m guessing here) shuts off the batteries, so in theory you extracted the full 2.2KWh’s. Having said that, with my 90ah sla battery bank of 3.2 KWh’s, of which we will say 50% was useable, 1.6KWh’s before the voltage decayed too much, I could get 6-8 hours on a calm day, and 4-6 on a windy day.

There are quite a few things at play here, for one, when electric motors get to a higher output their efficiency drops off a lot compared to how many watts are being consumed for the amount of thrust that is being generated. In other words, very respectfully submitted, what you may think was medium to light usage may have indeed been moderate to heavy usage. The other issue is that we don’t really know for sure how many KWh’s were delivered to your trolling motor because you don’t have a way to measure it.

The other thing that comes to mind immediately is were the batteries properly charged? What battery charger are you using?

My suggestion would be to fully charge the batteries back up again and after letting them sit overnight with out a charger on them or load, measure the voltage on the batteries. The voltage on each battery should be around 13.6V‘s. Charging voltage should be close to 14.4V.

Let me know and we can go from there.

 

[FSH 210 Sport]

The battle born is $800…. Seems $400 for same style on Amazon, am I missing something?

Yes, quality. My adage is “nothing good is cheap, and nothing cheap is good”. Quite a few low cost LiFePO battery companies out there that folks end up having issues with.

ReLion has their deal with Bass Pro and Cabela’s, and just recently West Marine started selling them. If these low cost batteries were really good, wouldn’t it make sense that these big companies would sell them?

And without looking at amazon, the warranty.

 

[FSH 210 Sport]

very detailed thank you. The 6v are 200ah each so series I’m still at that number.
Sounds like a single 100ah should be perfect. Thinking I can drop 100lbs by switching to single lithium house and start.

If it were me, I‘d stick with a group 24 AGM or flooded start type battery. The one area where lead acid batteries excel at is starting, delivering high amperage in short bursts.

 

[FSH 210 Sport]

thats great your finally seeing the benefits from all this research you have done over the past few months.

Thanks @mrcleanr6 ! It has been quite the journey with so many, I’ll call them lies of omission to be ferreted out. I would have never known to ask the questions that you suggested and would have ended up with a bad set up.

I’m also glad that I can help others with all of the homework I’ve done. Like a lot of things in life, each manufacturer / battery has something, in my case as my needs were specialized, that is a bit of a compromise.

If it wasn’t for @Can0n11 I would have ended up with the ReLion heated batteries, I thought I had done all my homework and it was @Can0n11 who wrote me and told me those batteries could not be connected in series! You had to look at the FAQ’s to really see it. I had already ordered those batteries and just in time was able to cancel the order before they shipped. And that turned out to be a bit of a cluster.. but the nice lady at ReLion was very helpful and in about 10 days total I got my CC credited back with the money which I turned right around and bought the Battle Born batteries with, in fact, for less money.

Battle Born was very straight forward. No drama’s. And the other thing I really liked about BB was that they put their test ing out in the open, and had an outsider come in and do a scientifically controlled set of testing to verify their batteries.

 

[Can0n11]

Golf cart resource:

https://battlebornbatteries.com/electric-golf-carts/#h-what-kind-of-batteries-do-electric-golf-carts-typically-use

I am hoping to get my batteries installed in the next week or so and your install pics and advice is really appreciated! Losing 150pds or so in the front of my FSH190 36v system will help with weight and balance as well as longer run times. I am adding the smart shunt as well to the install. BB sales helped with picking out the right battery and configuration.

 

[FSH 210 Sport]

Another update:

My friend and I did a walleye fishing tournament a couple of weeks back in what can only be described as brutal conditions. A spring storm came through during the tournament that on Saturday produced rain, sleet, then snow with high winds and ambient temps in the high 20’s. On Sunday there wasn’t any precip but there was high winds with the organizer advising to go out at your own discretion. There were 60 boats that put in Saturday morning and by 1000hrs a good portion of them had pulled out, and on Sunday only 20 boats put in.

On Saturday I used 62Ah / 2.4KWh of the 100Ah / 3.8KWh battery bank.



On Sunday I used 76.8Ah / 2.9KWh of the 100 ah / 3.8KWh trolling motor battery bank. My lead acid battery bank would have been done around 40Ah.

The low SOC (state of charge ) alarm is what I set the alarm at, 80% discharge floor. On Sunday it was all spot lock in some pretty high winds gusting to over 40mph, with sustained in the 25-30 mph range and it was cold.









I do not have a smart shunt on my house battery, but it held steady at 12.7 VDC on the connext screen (13.1 on my fluke meter) indicated all day long with the live well pump running, and fish finder going.

I’m very impressed with the performance of these batteries! The smart shunt is super easy to set up and use, and gives you a realtime look at the batteries health. I may have to put another one on my house battery. And so far the TR-1 alternators seem to be charging the LiFePO house battery just fine.

 

[FSH 210 Sport]

Update:

I’ve been using the LiFePO batteries to great effect this season. The deepest discharge I’ve done on the trolling motor battery bank has been 3.2 KWh, I think that was a 82 or 83% discharge. I discovered that my MinnKota PC MK 330 (10A per battery) battery charger does work to recharge the trolling motor battery bank but…it takes 12-14 hours to recharge that battery bank from an 80% / 80 Ah discharge, this is just too long for me as there are days when I don’t get home and get the charger hooked up until 2100 or 2200 hrs and I want to head out at 0700-0800 hrs the next morning.
As @mrcleanr6 stated earlier in this thread these batteries can charged at must faster rates than lead acid batteries. I bought three Victron IP67 battery chargers which have two charge rates, 10A and 25A which in theory should charge the trolling motor battery bank in 6 hours or less when the batteries have been discharged 80%. I have not installed them yet but will in the near future and report back on their performance.

The 100ah house battery has also been performing exceptionally well. While I have not installed a smart shunt on the house battery yet and have been using the voltage read out on the connext screen as a gauge and adding .4 volts for the gauge discrepancy I’ve mentioned earlier, the lowest voltage I’ve seen on the house battery was 12.7 connext / 13.1 Fluke 77, which put the battery at 60% discharged according to Battle Born’s chart. This was after fishing all day without running the engines, occasionally running the live well pump / aerator, Solix 10 MFD, recharging I Pilot link remote, stock stereo running all day, spending the night on the boat with the anchor light on all night (bulb changed to LED), and left the Solix in stand by overnight. On other occasions where I have driven the boat around to different locations, or on those days where I had to use the main engines because it was so windy, the LiFePO4 house battery chargers back up relatively quickly, albeit from shallower discharges than the aforementioned one.

I spent roughly $3600 on these batteries which is a lot and so far they have exceeded the high expectations I had for them. It was quite a journey researching them and getting them rigged into the system, a huge thank you to all who contributed to this thread, and I will say that if you are serious about having ample battery power without adding hundreds of pounds of batteries and wanting to keep track of the state of charge of your battery system then consider the set up I have on my boat.

 

[mrcleanr6]

thats great its all working out for you. i am not surprised though. whats not to like about going lithium.

 

[FSH 210 Sport]

thats great its all working out for you. i am not surprised though. whats not to like about going lithium.

I would add that the low resistance of the LiFePO4 Batteries seem to be well suited to our low output PMG charging systems. I do intend to put a Victron smart shunt on the house battery to not only monitor state of charge, but I will also be able to see how much charge is flowing into the house battery while the engines are running.

 

[84rzv500r]

I haven't has a problem keeping both the start and house batteries topped off with the boat charging systems. I have a Dakota Lithium 60Ah start and 2 x ampere time 100Ah house batteries... i can use my big stereo all day and the almost 300 lbs weight savings from the 4 x group 29's is goodness.

LiFePO4's were ~$1200

 

[FSH 210 Sport]

I haven't has a problem keeping both the start and house batteries topped off with the boat charging systems. I have a Dakota Lithium 60Ah start and 2 x ampere time 100Ah house batteries... i can use my big stereo all day and the almost 300 lbs weight savings from the 4 x group 29's is goodness.

LiFePO4's were ~$1200

Excellent!

I figure I knocked off about 100# between the three trolling motor batteries and the group 24 house battery.

As shown by the test video I posted, on the move with the Morgan’s, over their service life LiFePO4 batteries are far less per kWh than even the standard flooded lead acid batteries. If I was to upgrade my boat sometime in the next 10 years the LiFePO4 batteries would come out and go into the next boat.

 

[FSH 210 Sport]

Swapped out my minnkota charger for three Victron IP 67 25A chargers. This should cut my charge time down to 4 hrs max from 12-14. Wish I could get the wiring cleaner but such is the case since the batteries have to pull out.

The chargers are fully configurable beyond the multiple preset charge profiles using the same Bluetooth app that I use for the smart shunt. Battle Born walked me through the set up, easy peasey.

 

[FSH 210 Sport]

Have re charged twice with the Victron chargers…what a difference! I wish I’d have put them in a while ago! 80Ah discharge took about 3.5- 4 hours to complete the bulk charge then went to absorption at 14.4V with 0 amps, instead of 12 hours. It’s also nice to be able to see what the charger is doing and it has a record of each charge cycle you can look at through the app. These chargers “feel” like they get half as hot as the MinnKota did. The location seems to be fine with these chargers as well. The next step will be to put one of these in the battery compartment to charge the house battery. I may add either another one of the IP67 chargers in the battery compartment for the AGM start battery or an IP 65 who’s charge amperage is limited to 10A.

These single IP67 battery chargers are a bit pricey at $210, and they seem well worth the money. Being able to charge my trolling motor battery bank in 4 hours or so is exactly what I needed to have.

 

[FSH 210 Sport]

A couple of screen shots of the charger app.

Don’t let the elapsed time fool you, the majority of that time was during the absorption phase which is 14.4 volts and no amperage, the charge is pretty much done at the end of the bulk phase. Again, compared to the minnkota, it’s so nice to be able to see what the charger is doing.

 

[BoatElectricians]

Hello, my name is Rod, I am a Battery Expert, with a BSEE degree.
Lead Acid ( LA), and Nickel cadmium ( NiCad) afe the oldest chemistries, and some specialties as calcium and silver, last ones for medical devices.
20 years ago the Nickel metal Hydride ( NMH) took over NiCad for consumers, but NiCad Prevails in aircraft and submarines, and will continue for long years due safety, working temperatures, vibration and very high output; charging systems are very sophisticate.

Several construction types, for LA were developed for several applications: Valve regulated Lead Acid ( VRLA) was a big improvement, later GEL (not such a great invention), and were replaced by AGM ( Absorbed Glass Mat) the acid is absorbed in kind of sponge, resembling gel, both keeping liquid acid from leaking or evaporating, and can be used sideways…there is a myriad variables: thick plate, ultra thin plate, Coiled (Optima Brand) Bars, Tubulars, also fiberglass pockets filled with lead powder, you name it.

My employer was VARTA Batteries AG a German manufacturer in Hagen, later merged into Johnson Controls, which remains in operation.

https://www.varta-ag.com/en/ueber-varta/overview/history

Regarding this Thread:
1. A heavier LiPoFe stores more energy than a lighter weight; materials energy density is measured in lbs / Kg

2. LiPOFe Is safer now, if you don’t perforate or smash it on an accident; if a propeller dig into them, that fire is unbearable.

if a whole boat gets in fire for other reason; when LiPOFe will Blow as a gas tank.
NiCad in aircraft are sealed on a stainless steel box for tha same reason.

3. Other Lithium chemistries, are still unsafe, like cheap cell phones, and electronics, airlines are not done in their battle against cell phones using Li Batteries, and shouldn’t be placed over mattresses, couches, or any fire promoter

4. LiPOFe is not made for low temp, nor for starting purposes; so warming blankets and cooling plates can mitigate, but not eliminate the fact.
If bad engine requires heavy start, i.e 5 times for 5 seconds each….. only highly oversized lithium could handle.
Same for Diesel Engines.

5. I add a burst to my LiPOFe with a box of SuperCapacitors, they resemble a battery; can give a tremendous instantaneous energy, for seconds or minutes….. but cannot compete with batteries in several hours. Here the link:

48 Volt Modules - With DuraBlue ® Technology - Maxwell Technologies

Maxwell’s DuraBlue™ Advanced Shock and Vibration Technology is the company’s latest advance in ultracapacitor reliability and performance.

maxwell.com

6. Power: P ..= VxI is a basic formula, good for resistors, but motors require complex analysis. The MK technician is correct regarding higher currents troubles.
for Lead acid 12Vx 3 =36 V which will drop to 35V instantly.
for LiPOFe 12.89 V x 3 al = 38.67 V

For same torque:
P( lead ) = 35V x100 A = 3500 W
P (LI) = 38.67 x100 A = 3867 W

Torque is proportional to Amp

Other formula: I= V/R= I ; (Amps = volts/ohms )
The resistance ( Impedance) on a motor, varies with certain design parameters.
Excluding some complex variables, lets assume for easy calculation that two motor are already running and both have same identical resistance (R) = 100 Ohm

Amp ( lead) = 3500W/100ohm = 35A
Amp (L). = 3867W/100ohm = 38.67A
In a motor, if you raise the voltage, the current will rise, and the motor will be delivering a higher power than designed for.

When the MK is running full load for 1 hour, the heat cumulated will be higher than its internal thermistor calibration and the electronic control will protect the motor.
Shut down could be avoided using the MK at 75%.

7. Engine alternator.
if the engine alternator is disconnected from the battery, the alternator diodes and regulator will burn.
if the BMS on a LiPOfe disconnects after fully charged, or discharged, or hot or cold….the alternator will be damaged.

The alternator will require a higher voltage to charge the LI, Bss you can find them at BALMAR.

Balmar Announces Regulator Support for Lithium Batteries - Balmar

Marysville, Washington – Balmar LLC, the leading manufacturer of onboard DC charging systems for cruising sail and power boats today announced enhanced support for the charging of lithium batteries. Balmar’s MC-614, MC-624 and MC-612-DUAL smart regulators have all been equipped with an...

balmar.net

A small Lead Acid Battery permanently connected to the alternators is necessary to avoid alternator damage when BMS disconnects.
And to protect the small battery from the high LiPOFe charging voltage, you need a DC/DC converter to reduce the Lead Acid battery at 12.8 V when LI are charging at 14.8V.. DC/DC
.
8. Some modern boat computers on Yamaha wakeboards, have malfunction on their computer with 14.8V or higher; Dc/Dc converters are necessary.

9. tachometers read the voltage of the alternator, to calculate the RPMs, need to be adjusted, not to be deceived with RPM real magnitude., Windlass, LEDs, and many more.

10. Lithium advancements still requires several tunning in the periferal systems.

 

[84rzv500r]

Re a couple of your points 7,8,9....

7. While this is sort of true for traditional automotive style alternators that have a 12V excited field and a full wave rectifiers... if you provide dual contacts for the load and field lines and disconnect both nothing bad will happen... now there are other alternator variations and generators.
The yamaha boats and PWC have permanent magnet three phase stators and the output is controlled by an SCR based Rectifier/Regulator that shunts excess current to ground in the older ones, and in the newer ones they use more efficient MOSFET style Rectifier/Regulators. While this this style charging system is not perfect for LiFePO4 but according to my battery MFG its in spec... I have been considering replacing my SCR R/R units with MOSFET R/R with slightly tweaked charging voltages... I have another post on this topic...

8. Most any nontrivial semiconductor based devices today will have DC/DC conversion internally for a variety of reasons however, I don't see external DC/DC converters very often in Yamaha wake boats in stock form. Could you provide a reference example?

9. Tachos on 4 stroke fuel injected Yamaha boats are driven off a CAN style bus (for brevity) or a tacho pulse both derived from the ECU which is usually signaled by a hall effect sensor on the engine somewhere (cam).

 

[FSH 210 Sport]

Installed the second smart shunt today, this one is dedicated to the house battery. In addition to knowing the state of charge on my house battery, how much power each device pulls, I’ll have a good idea now how much charging current the TR-1’s can put out.

 

[zipper]

Earth Day sale on Battle Born batteries.

 

[FSH 210 Sport]

Earth Day sale on Battle Born batteries.

Significant reduction!

I see that what appears to be a 13% off sale .