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CoVID-19 / SARS-CoV-2 Information and Questions

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ripler

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Mask mandates are going away around my area and most others it seems.

Dr Fauci has been awfully quiet the last couple weeks.
Mask mandates are going away in my area also since I live in an area that is considered to have a low community level. I also have to point out that I know more people with Covid now than at any time during the pandemic. The CDC is saying that once you've recovered from Covid you have natural immunity for 90 days, well 2 of the people I know with Covid now are at least 4 weeks away from that 90 day mark, they are all from areas that are considered low on the CDC community level.
 

HangOutdoors

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I am also seeing the same thing here. Mandates have been dropped around here and so has mask wearing in general. I know more people who are sick now than I have at anytime during the last couple years at one time. I continue to mask, KN95, in heavily congested places and at the office. Looking forward to the day when I don't personally feel I need to do that. The local hospital is full up with Covid Cases. Also on this past Monday the school dropped the Mask requirement. Some of the kids friends are out sick today. Not sure for what though.

One relative of ours has COVID right now and it will be his 3rd time since January 2021, which I didn't think is possible. He is in his 40's and fairly healthy. Bizarre. But It appears since there is an Invasion going on in the Ukraine, current info on the subject and what is going on is hard to come by. I called an ER Doctor I know to see what was going on.
 

Robconn

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Thanks we just got our boat numbers and can't wait to take her for a spin. 🙌🙌

My main question had nothing to do with unvaccinated people but how do I have the authority to diagnose a patient with covid based off a lab result vs Dr. documentation? I don't expect you to know ICD-10 coding guidelines as you are a front-line worker and I am a remote certified medical coder...I am an important part in facility reimbursement but I code off QHCP documentation...not labs unless read and documented by a QHCP....until Covid came along...now I dx positive covid cases all day long as long as the lab shows positive. I can't code positive flu, postive strep, or positive mono labs....Does that sound reasonable to you and if so please enlighten me as to why I have the privilege in diagnosing someone based off a lab test without M.D. behind my name and the documentation to back it up?
If it ain't documented, it ain't done and lab tests are just that...lab tests.
I wish I new more about coding aspects. All I know from what I see is that once a PCR test is positive, a chest x-ray and cat scan are ordered completed and read all before an admission. Phlebotomy tests are ordered as well. So I see the activity of the physicians with consults in radiology, pulmonology, cardiology, primary care providers, hospitalist , and Intensevist. I may not know enough about coding to answer your question with any exactness. But I do feel my facility is on the up and up.
Regarding patients that arrive to the ED and are asymptomatic that discover they have covid , diagnostic and laboratory tests are treated the same way with that population.
I only mentioned vaccines as it applied to overall experience especially how it related to staffing. The nurses in employee health have been pulling double duty since the beginning. Running vaccine clinics while running the day to day operations. They are another overlooked part of daily hospital operations. Following up on staff to update them and get everyone safely back to work.
the temps are rising, going to give the shop a call to get the boat ready by April. Keep us posted with lots of pics.
rob
 
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TXsweetcheeks

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Are you arguing that a positive SARS-CoV-2 or influenza test does not indicate that the subject has those viruses?

I fail to understand the significance of your concern? Are you not just the billing guy? Are you prescribing treatment or just updating the billing records?
Coding is a step prior to billing. We code dx and procedures from providers documentation so that it can go to billing for final payment.
Also, I'm not a guy so that was pretty presumptive of you.
You obviously no nothing about coding and and the ICD-10 coding guidelines.
Ignorance is part of being human so I forgive you.
 

Jim_in_Delaware

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@TXsweetcheeks, apologies, but I do not understand the point of your posts? Are you insinuating that covid numbers in hospitals are being vastly overestimated? Or, maybe insurers are paying for too many covid tests? Could you please elaborate your concerns?

I, personally, would expect all patients coming into hospitals be tested for covid, and the presumption be they are positive until testing shows otherwise. Given the accuracy of the covid testing done in hospitals, I don't see any nefarious activity in what you have already posted.

Jim
 

tabbibus

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Coding is a step prior to billing. We code dx and procedures from providers documentation so that it can go to billing for final payment.
Also, I'm not a guy so that was pretty presumptive of you.
You obviously no nothing about coding and and the ICD-10 coding guidelines.
Ignorance is part of being human so I forgive you.
I guess it depends on where you work? At places I have worked, coders have a good deal of power if it makes sense in the clinical context.

On a separate note, man am I confused about the CDC guidelines. They changed the definition of what is a high incidence area, so basically the map went from all red to barely any red. Hence masks are no longer needed. I still tell my patients who are high risk to continue to be careful.

It is funny, people can go back to work and not need masks and what not, but for the SOTU everyone got a covid test and those who were positive couldn't go. Us plebes don't get that benefit. Only time will tell what will happen with this new strategy. The reality is that among the vast majority of my colleagues (ED, pulmonary, infectious, critical care), the CDC long ago lost its clout/credibility.
 

adrianp89

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Coding is a step prior to billing. We code dx and procedures from providers documentation so that it can go to billing for final payment.
Also, I'm not a guy so that was pretty presumptive of you.
You obviously no nothing about coding and and the ICD-10 coding guidelines.
Ignorance is part of being human so I forgive you.
Ignore him, his mind is as closed as it gets. Challenging the narrative on this forum will result in warning/ban.
 

Robconn

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Ignore him, his mind is as closed as it gets. Challenging the narrative on this forum will result in warning/ban.
Is that it? I considered it to be an honest and fair question and I would be interested in the mutual exchanges of opinions and ideas. I may have interpreted the initial prompt differently as well than what was intended giving room for more dialog. Isn’t that what this should be about?
 
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the MfM

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The reality is that among the vast majority of my colleagues (ED, pulmonary, infectious, critical care), the CDC long ago lost its clout/credibility.
I think that’s true among large portions of the population.
 

TXsweetcheeks

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@Jim_in_Delaware The point to my posts is I am not allowed to code from labs. Now, I can code from Covid lab tests. I don’t expect you to understand because you are not a coder. To educate you on the subject I would have to charge you money because it would take some time.

We also have a department called CDI…ever hear of it? It stands for Clinical Documentation Improvement because Drs. are trying to save the world and their documentation isn’t always the best which makes my job even more difficult. If documentation is conflicting, then we must query the Dr. Sometimes they get irritated with queries because they are busy saving the world, but we are trying to code to the highest specificity and that’s why their documentation is very important to be as precise as possible.

When a pt comes in just for labs we code a screening code, exposure code, or an encounter for preprocedural lab work (Z codes) but we as coders do not interpret the results even though they are there for us to see. That is in the scope of the HCP. Now, when a Covid test comes along if its negative we code the exposure code but if its positive we code U07.1 My concerns are if we have the ability to code from Covid labs why can we not code from all positive lab tests, HIV, STDS, Influenza, Strep, any bacteria’s found, etc.….I will tell you why…because we are not doctors and we do not interpret labs with the exception of Covid.

Can you see my concern now? If not, please go educate yourself on the matter. I accept paypal, venmo, Zelle…You’re Welcome 😊
 

AZMark

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Ignore him, his mind is as closed as it gets. Challenging the narrative on this forum will result in warning/ban.
As my boss frequently tells me when I get to bitching too much, vote with your feet man…
 

tabbibus

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Did we forget our morning alkaloid of choice? I sure did take a good dose of caffeine. Lets continue to have a civil discourse without snark and aggressiveness towards each other. We are more than capable. Even when we misinterpret a post or make a mistake that is not in bad faith, I don't see a need to belittle others or be passive aggressive.

To your point @TXsweetcheeks, yeah, it is kinda odd that you can do that. I can not pretend to know the reasoning, although as always I'm sure money is involved somewhere. And yes, I loathe CDI queries, but I appreciate what they do.

edit: typo
 

Robconn

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@Jim_in_Delaware The point to my posts is I am not allowed to code from labs. Now, I can code from Covid lab tests. I don’t expect you to understand because you are not a coder. To educate you on the subject I would have to charge you money because it would take some time.

We also have a department called CDI…ever hear of it? It stands for Clinical Documentation Improvement because Drs. are trying to save the world and their documentation isn’t always the best which makes my job even more difficult. If documentation is conflicting, then we must query the Dr. Sometimes they get irritated with queries because they are busy saving the world, but we are trying to code to the highest specificity and that’s why their documentation is very important to be as precise as possible.

When a pt comes in just for labs we code a screening code, exposure code, or an encounter for preprocedural lab work (Z codes) but we as coders do not interpret the results even though they are there for us to see. That is in the scope of the HCP. Now, when a Covid test comes along if its negative we code the exposure code but if its positive we code U07.1 My concerns are if we have the ability to code from Covid labs why can we not code from all positive lab tests, HIV, STDS, Influenza, Strep, any bacteria’s found, etc.….I will tell you why…because we are not doctors and we do not interpret labs with the exception of Covid.

Can you see my concern now? If not, please go educate yourself on the matter. I accept paypal, venmo, Zelle…You’re Welcome 😊
Similar to my experience that knows how to interpret data but can not officially define the data. Good point! At some level do you work under a physicians license? I have a medical director above my director. Maybe a vague Layer of liability and ethics that is accepted.
 

TXsweetcheeks

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@Robconn No, I work under the ICD-10 CM Official Coding guidelines and the facility specific guidelines.
Here's the intro to the guidelines and who oversees the rules and conventions for my scope of practice:

The Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS) and the National Center for Health Statistics (NCHS), two departments within the U.S. Federal Government’s Department of Health and Human Services (DHHS) provide the following guidelines for coding and reporting using the International Classification of Diseases, 10th Revision, Clinical Modification (ICD-10-CM). These guidelines should be used as a companion document to the official version of the ICD-10-CM as published on the NCHS website. The ICD-10-CM is a morbidity classification published by the United States for classifying diagnoses and reason for visits in all health care settings. The ICD10-CM is based on the ICD-10, the statistical classification of disease published by the World Health Organization (WHO). These guidelines have been approved by the four organizations that make up the Cooperating Parties for the ICD-10-CM: the American Hospital Association (AHA), the American Health Information Management Association (AHIMA), CMS, and NCHS. These guidelines are a set of rules that have been developed to accompany and complement the official conventions and instructions provided within the ICD-10-CM itself. The instructions and conventions of the classification take precedence over guidelines. These guidelines are based on the coding and sequencing instructions in the Tabular List and Alphabetic Index of ICD-10-CM, but provide additional instruction. Adherence to these guidelines when assigning ICD-10-CM diagnosis codes is required under the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA). The diagnosis codes (Tabular List and Alphabetic Index) have been adopted under HIPAA for all healthcare settings.
A joint effort between the healthcare provider and the coder is essential to achieve complete and accurate documentation, code assignment, and reporting of diagnoses and procedures. These guidelines have been developed to assist both the healthcare provider and the coder in identifying those diagnoses that are to be reported. The importance of consistent, complete documentation in the medical record cannot be overemphasized. Without such documentation accurate coding cannot be achieved. The entire record should be reviewed to determine the specific reason for the encounter and the conditions treated. The term encounter is used for all settings, including hospital admissions. In the context of these guidelines, the term provider is used throughout the guidelines to mean physician or any qualified health care practitioner who is legally accountable for establishing the patient’s diagnosis.
Only this set of guidelines, approved by the Cooperating Parties, is official.
HTH:)
 

Robconn

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@Robconn No, I work under the ICD-10 CM Official Coding guidelines and the facility specific guidelines.
Here's the intro to the guidelines and who oversees the rules and conventions for my scope of practice:

The Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS) and the National Center for Health Statistics (NCHS), two departments within the U.S. Federal Government’s Department of Health and Human Services (DHHS) provide the following guidelines for coding and reporting using the International Classification of Diseases, 10th Revision, Clinical Modification (ICD-10-CM). These guidelines should be used as a companion document to the official version of the ICD-10-CM as published on the NCHS website. The ICD-10-CM is a morbidity classification published by the United States for classifying diagnoses and reason for visits in all health care settings. The ICD10-CM is based on the ICD-10, the statistical classification of disease published by the World Health Organization (WHO). These guidelines have been approved by the four organizations that make up the Cooperating Parties for the ICD-10-CM: the American Hospital Association (AHA), the American Health Information Management Association (AHIMA), CMS, and NCHS. These guidelines are a set of rules that have been developed to accompany and complement the official conventions and instructions provided within the ICD-10-CM itself. The instructions and conventions of the classification take precedence over guidelines. These guidelines are based on the coding and sequencing instructions in the Tabular List and Alphabetic Index of ICD-10-CM, but provide additional instruction. Adherence to these guidelines when assigning ICD-10-CM diagnosis codes is required under the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA). The diagnosis codes (Tabular List and Alphabetic Index) have been adopted under HIPAA for all healthcare settings.
A joint effort between the healthcare provider and the coder is essential to achieve complete and accurate documentation, code assignment, and reporting of diagnoses and procedures. These guidelines have been developed to assist both the healthcare provider and the coder in identifying those diagnoses that are to be reported. The importance of consistent, complete documentation in the medical record cannot be overemphasized. Without such documentation accurate coding cannot be achieved. The entire record should be reviewed to determine the specific reason for the encounter and the conditions treated. The term encounter is used for all settings, including hospital admissions. In the context of these guidelines, the term provider is used throughout the guidelines to mean physician or any qualified health care practitioner who is legally accountable for establishing the patient’s diagnosis.
Only this set of guidelines, approved by the Cooperating Parties, is official.
HTH:)
Thank you for explaining in great detail. On occasion I do hear physicians mention coding but never quite understood the context.
 

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@Jim_in_Delaware The point to my posts is I am not allowed to code from labs. Now, I can code from Covid lab tests. I don’t expect you to understand because you are not a coder. To educate you on the subject I would have to charge you money because it would take some time.
I get that you are operating under a set of standards, which exist to assure that correct and precise coding (and billing) of medical services rendered. However, in a public health emergency, things change. Where are you getting the new direction on Covid test coding? From the federal government (maybe CMS?) or somewhere else?

I have almost 40 years of federal service. When I help train our new investigators on evaluation of evidence, we teach them "So What?" Meaning, how is what they are seeing important?

I would asked that if there has been a change in coding for Covid testing, "So What?" Could you please explain why you think the change is important? Do you think these patients with a positive test result don't have Covid? Is it that you think Covid numbers in hospitals are being vastly overestimated? Maybe, insurers are paying for too many Covid tests? Or something else?

Jim
 

Julian

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It just goes against every grain of my coding background to code based off a positive lab test when that is the only thing the patient came in for. Yes it was ordered by the provider but I am literally coding Covid for just a positive lab test...no provider documentation to go with that test. I can't do that with a lab only visit for a positive flu test...are you following me??
The guidelines I have are actually attempting to do the opposite of what you are suggesting - and override the "Uncertain Diagnosis" section of the guidelines that have been around a while (that are intended to support what a Doctor thinks the patient has vs just what test results may say). In the latest publication, they are saying just because a doctor says "probable" Covid - do NOT code it as Covid, only code it if they CONFIRM DIAGNOSIS. Otherwise just code the symptoms.

I think what you are asking about is the first sentence: "as documented by the provider or documentation of a positive COVID- 19 test result." The "OR" in that sentence suggests that you can code on provider documentation OR just the test result. But the paragraph says TWICE "code only a confirmed diagnosis", and goes onto say - NOT if they say probable. Which for all other diseases (except Covid, Zika, HIV and Acute respiratory failure) you should code "Probable" as having the disease.

It would seem to me that someone has told you to code on the Lab result only - perhaps incorrectly? (Basing this off coding guide FY 2021 – UPDATED January 1, 2021, perhaps there is a newer version? )

Relevant Sections of ICD-10-CM pasted below:

Section II H:
Uncertain Diagnosis
If the diagnosis documented at the time of discharge is qualified as “probable,” “suspected,” “likely,” “questionable,” “possible,” or “still to be ruled out,” “compatible with,” “consistent with,” or other similar terms indicating uncertainty, code the condition as if it existed or was established. The bases for these guidelines are the diagnostic workup, arrangements for further workup or observation, and initial therapeutic approach that correspond most closely with the established diagnosis. Note: This guideline is applicable only to inpatient admissions to short-term, acute, long-term care and psychiatric hospitals.

Section 1, C 1 g 1 (a)
g. Coronavirus infections
1) COVID-19 infection (infection due to SARS-CoV-2)​
(a) Code only confirmed cases​
Code only a confirmed diagnosis of the 2019 novel coronavirus disease (COVID-19) as documented by the provider or documentation of a positive COVID- 19 test result. For a confirmed diagnosis, assign code U07.1, COVID-19. This is an exception to the hospital inpatient guideline Section II, H. In this context, “confirmation” does not require documentation of a positive test result for COVID19; the provider’s documentation that the individual has COVID-19 is sufficient. If the provider documents "suspected," "possible," "probable," or “inconclusive” COVID-19, do not assign code U07.1. Instead, code the signs and symptoms reported. See guideline I.C.1.g.1.g.​
 

TXsweetcheeks

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@Jim_in_Delaware
I really appreciate the valuable insight on your So what? Training. The questions that you are alluding to my thought process on why I can now code from a positive Covid lab test is way off, but I can see how you would take that narrative with your Federal So what? Training.

When someone says, So what? To me, it comes across as very cold, inhumane, super low to nonexistent EI (Emotional Intelligent), dismissive and maybe a little narcissistic. So what? Who cares? What does it matter? Why do you question authority? Conform and accept.
Yeah, that sounds like some federal BS training right there.

BTW, One of my favorite artist has a song titled So What?
I play it a lot and sing it loud and proud when I feel like I need a little empowerment.
You should try it...It's way more freeing than scrutinizing everything and everybody.

So, so what?
I'm still a rock star
I got my rock moves
And I don't need you
And guess what?
I'm having more fun
And now that we're done
I'm gonna show you tonight

I'm alright
I'm just fine
And you're a tool
So, so what?
I am a rock star
I got my rock moves
And I don't want you tonight

Have a great day Jimmy 😊
 

the MfM

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@Jim_in_Delaware
I really appreciate the valuable insight on your So what? Training. The questions that you are alluding to my thought process on why I can now code from a positive Covid lab test is way off, but I can see how you would take that narrative with your Federal So what? Training.

When someone says, So what? To me, it comes across as very cold, inhumane, super low to nonexistent EI (Emotional Intelligent), dismissive and maybe a little narcissistic. So what? Who cares? What does it matter? Why do you question authority? Conform and accept.
Yeah, that sounds like some federal BS training right there.

BTW, One of my favorite artist has a song titled So What?
I play it a lot and sing it loud and proud when I feel like I need a little empowerment.
You should try it...It's way more freeing than scrutinizing everything and everybody.

So, so what?
I'm still a rock star
I got my rock moves
And I don't need you
And guess what?
I'm having more fun
And now that we're done
I'm gonna show you tonight

I'm alright
I'm just fine
And you're a tool
So, so what?
I am a rock star
I got my rock moves
And I don't want you tonight

Have a great day Jimmy 😊
Welcome to the forum. You seem familiar.
 

Jim_in_Delaware

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@Jim_in_Delaware
I really appreciate the valuable insight on your So what? Training. The questions that you are alluding to my thought process on why I can now code from a positive Covid lab test is way off, but I can see how you would take that narrative with your Federal So what? Training.

When someone says, So what? To me, it comes across as very cold, inhumane, super low to nonexistent EI (Emotional Intelligent), dismissive and maybe a little narcissistic. So what? Who cares? What does it matter? Why do you question authority? Conform and accept.
Yeah, that sounds like some federal BS training right there.
Sigh, you obviously don't understand what I am saying. :rolleyes:

"So what?" is not cold, inhuman, dismissive, or any of the other things you have listed. It is part of a thought process to help determine the significance in what they are seeing. Just because something is different doesn't make it wrong. Even if something is wrong, it may or may not be significant.

Again, I understand that you code Covid test results different from other test results. I have already twice asked you why you think doing so might be significant. Twice, you have given me a snarky response and not answered the question. You have also not answered my previous question of whose directions are you following in the coding. The purpose of this thread is so that we can all learn something from each other. I genuinely want to know why you think it is it significant.

Jim
 
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