EV discussion - hate or love?

[adrianp89]

Throttle House did a really good review on the Ioniq 5N. Seemed to like it from what I could gather. I doubt I'll ever own one. I've been in a couple Hyundai rentals this year, and I just don't like the interior design styling and operation. The SanteFe I had for a week was neat with the giant screen and very modern styling, but was just OK to drive, and I grew tired of the over the top styling quickly. The Santa Cruz I had back in January was actually pretty nice. Much more traditional styling and interior. DCT transmission wasn't great though.

As much of a car enthusiast as I might be (or have been), a lot of these drift modes, and other such features are more sizzle than steak. Cool to have, but not sure how often I would use them. Of course so is 1,025hp in an R1S.

I'm like 99% convinced I want an EV as my next vehicle. I'm tired of oil changes and gaskets and clutches, and belts, and filters, and all that crap. However, that's not to say a lease on ICE wouldn't solve those same issues for me. I really like the idea of not standing outside in the winter in Buffalo to put fuel in the car too.

I have a couple big gripes with the R1S, but it keeps being the one I come back to. 3rd row, long base range (371mi), as well as some decent off-road chops with the A/T package. Nothing else has really "blown my socks off" any better.

The way EVs are depreciating - I wouldn't even consider buying one. Lease is the way to go, they are giving them away. I've seen some stupid deals. I saw a Nissan Leaf for $50/month yesterday. Tacans were getting 30k off, Lyrics were like $299 a month.

"I really like the idea of not standing outside in the winter in Buffalo to put fuel in the car too." - better than freezing to death in your dead car.

 

[2kwik4u]

Agree on the leasing. The depreciation is very steep on EV's, and a pre-negotiated "get out" point is the only way to go.

"I really like the idea of not standing outside in the winter in Buffalo to put fuel in the car too." - better than freezing to death in your dead car.

I think we can agree that's a heavy handed bit of hyperbole there.

ICE has just as good of a chance of dying in extreme weather as an EV. Arguably, if it's cold enough to freeze me to death outside I would be just as worried about fuel line freeze up, or other such mechanical failures as I would an EV battery failing. Especially if I turn it off to refuel then stand outside of it. A situation that is almost entirely avoided in an EV to begin with.

 

[2kwik4u]

Fixed for you

Rivian is on borrowed time. They're transitioning to a software company, the deal with VW that's their current lifeline is basically them acting as software developers for VW. They will eventually fizzle out as an automaker and get scooped up by a legacy automaker (probably VW) for their software.

Disagree completely on this one. Rivian has a pretty clear path forward.

Beyond the R1 line, there is an R2 and R3 coming. As well as the continued revenue from delivery vans, or which I think they signed two new clients this year with large orders. The VW partnership to license tech is just another revenue stream. No different than Apple selling licenses to use it's software in infotainment. I've read rumors of them setting up a used vehicle marketplace as well (which turns the lease deals being offered with high residuals into marketing/investment dollars spent, not just wasted cash).

 

[2kwik4u]

I don't think any EV is gonna "blow your socks off". That's not where they are at in the market, or where the auto industry is as a whole. The auto industry as a whole is chasing "good enough with high margins". Nobody is really trying to wow or impress, they're trying to pass off "cheaper" as modern. They're cost cutting features out (like moonroofs that open), and setting the stage for a "goods as a service" model.

"Blow my socks off" was more in the premise of having the right mix of features versus price. Things like an opening roof, a tow rating, and a 3rd row for under $100k. SQ8 eTron gets close, but the range is pretty rough, no 3rd row, and no tow rating (3,300lbs! Seriously Audi?). Hummer SUV is close, but no third row and a $140k price tag. Lightning, Silverado, Sierra have most everything except a 3rd row, but they're either stupid expensive or have not great towing range. Rivian is the closest thing I've found that checks as many boxes as possible, and has the fewest gripes.

If GM is secretly listening......Take a Tahoe, and electrify it like Ford did with the F150. I want that chassis and body with an EV driveline. I'll buy one tomorrow.

 

[adrianp89]

"Blow my socks off" was more in the premise of having the right mix of features versus price. Things like an opening roof, a tow rating, and a 3rd row for under $100k. SQ8 eTron gets close, but the range is pretty rough, no 3rd row, and no tow rating (3,300lbs! Seriously Audi?). Hummer SUV is close, but no third row and a $140k price tag. Lightning, Silverado, Sierra have most everything except a 3rd row, but they're either stupid expensive or have not great towing range. Rivian is the closest thing I've found that checks as many boxes as possible, and has the fewest gripes.

If GM is secretly listening......Take a Tahoe, and electrify it like Ford did with the F150. I want that chassis and body with an EV driveline. I'll buy one tomorrow.

Even if you get the tow rating, how far do you have to tow? Anything further than 100 miles round trip - good luck.

What about a Kia EV9?

 

[Julian]

Even if you get the tow rating, how far do you have to tow? Anything further than 100 miles round trip - good luck.

What about a Kia EV9?

EV9 has a max tow capacity of 5000lbs....which is low.

GM should have built a Yukon or Suburban EV!

 

[Murf'n'surf]

Ford's keypad system is such an underrated feature. At least for people who might be on a boat, kayak, the beach, biking, really doing anything outdoors. Unfortunately Ford sees it as a cost adder that none of its competitors offer rather than a key differentiator in the market, and is making it a dealer installed.option on most vehicles. Modern cars are the race to the bottom.

Jaguar/Land Rover had a cool take on it too, their activity band. It was basically an RFID card like most have as a backup now, but was a rubberized band you could wear if you were doing outdoorsy stuff. Shame it was wasted on JLR, would be a killer feature on a Jeep or Subaru or GM.

I do like the keypad systems on Ford's, very useful when you are doing outdoorsy things and leave you $1000 phone in the car.

 

[adrianp89]

EV9 has a max tow capacity of 5000lbs....which is low.

GM should have built a Yukon or Suburban EV!

Should handle 19-21' boats no problem. I believe 2kwik has a 19'

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

Should handle 19-21' boats no problem. I believe 2kwik has a 19'

Except it may not. He posted in a different thread that his 19’ does not have trailer brakes. I believe the EV9 has a tow limit of around 1650 lbs if the trailer does not have its own brakes.

Jim

 

[adrianp89]

Except it may not. He posted in a different thread that his 19’ does not have trailer brakes. I believe the EV9 has a tow limit of around 1650 lbs if the trailer does not have its own brakes.

Jim

For his requirements he may have to do some work. He can add brakes for under 1k. The car is well under his 100k threshold.

Side note, I never knew they published tow rating for brake or no brake trailers.

 

[BlkGS]

For his requirements he may have to do some work. He can add brakes for under 1k. The car is well under his 100k threshold.

Side note, I never knew they published tow rating for brake or no brake trailers.

Fun fact, the max tow rating for all vehicles is usually with trailer brakes, and in a lot of cases for BoF vehicles is with a WDH. All those 10k pound ratings on trucks? They require a WDH.

I think 2slow4me is thinking about upgrading boat size, and that's why he's worried about tow rating.

My point about socks.being blown off is that none of the automakers are really providing what they should for the price point anymore. I just read an article where the Ford CEO Elsa's bragging about how they cut $800 out of the midsize ev pickup they're working on. $500 from the battery being undersized, $300 other places. They seem to not get that if we are already paying a ton, we would rather pay the extra $800 and not have the vehicle be a cost reduced piece of crap.

The auto industry deserves the bloodbath that they're headed for.

 

[BlkGS]

EV9 has a max tow capacity of 5000lbs....which is low.

GM should have built a Yukon or Suburban EV!

They have the Escalade iQ coming out. I think that segment is really primed for a PHEV. Enough EV range for taking the kids to school and sports, but a ICE powertrain for towing and long distance road trips.

 

[2kwik4u]

Even if you get the tow rating, how far do you have to tow? Anything further than 100 miles round trip - good luck.

What about a Kia EV9?

The landscape around towing with an EV has changed between the last time I evaluated and when I moved to Buffalo.

R1S can get me around 150mi to a charge while towing. Max pack with Dual Motor setup is rated at 410mi with 100% charge. Take some off for reserve, and use some reported consumption numbers around 1.2-1.4mi/kWh from the forums, and I land around that 150mi round trip acceptable radius.

All of the lakes I would tow to up here, have a supercharger (previously inaccessible for non Tesla EV's) between me and them, so stopping for a 20min "top-off" to get back to the house is possible. The move has also reduced the total distance to the lakes I would "day trip" to. Those geography/infrastructure changes, combined with the larger pack availability, put EV towing back on the table for me. A year ago, I would've agreed.

In Indiana I was a minimum 90mi round trip with frequent trips into the 160mi range to get to our local lakes and back. That combined with the trips being through a "charging desert" in rural IN/KY meant it would be a far more sketchy experience than I would have accepted.

This really drives home the point that EV's still aren't a "one size fits all" solution. They work for some and not for others. I wouldn't expect a trip in the western states with mountains and large distances between "civilization" to be nearly the same workload as what I'm looking at here in western NY region.

The Kia EV9 isn't bad, but the tow rating is lower than I would prefer, and I really don't like the Kia interior designs. They're not bad, just not for me.

 

[BlkGS]

Disagree completely on this one. Rivian has a pretty clear path forward.

Beyond the R1 line, there is an R2 and R3 coming. As well as the continued revenue from delivery vans, or which I think they signed two new clients this year with large orders. The VW partnership to license tech is just another revenue stream. No different than Apple selling licenses to use it's software in infotainment. I've read rumors of them setting up a used vehicle marketplace as well (which turns the lease deals being offered with high residuals into marketing/investment dollars spent, not just wasted cash).

They may have plans, but do they have customers? Their cash burn is insane, the 1B they got from VW is only gonna last them a year (maybe less, it wasn't just a "here's a free billion dollars", VW expects work as a result of it).

R2 and R3 will be critical products for them. Unlike Model 3 though, there's already plenty of competition for them when they launch. model 3/Y, all the big automakers are gonna have their stuff on the market, some of them will be nearing second generation EVs,. There's been a major slowing of growth in EVs, and the price wars are just starting.

I wouldn't be surprised to see them spin off into an EV software unit and a EV delivery van unit, with those two parts being snapped up by other legacy automakers or outside firms.

 

[2kwik4u]

My point about socks.being blown off is that none of the automakers are really providing what they should for the price point anymore. I just read an article where the Ford CEO Elsa's bragging about how they cut $800 out of the midsize ev pickup they're working on. $500 from the battery being undersized, $300 other places. They seem to not get that if we are already paying a ton, we would rather pay the extra $800 and not have the vehicle be a cost reduced piece of crap.

The auto industry deserves the bloodbath that they're headed for.

That's an auto industry problem not an EV problem.

I'm finding here that we fall on different sides of the "glass half full or glass half empty" debate

 

[BlkGS]

The landscape around towing with an EV has changed between the last time I evaluated and when I moved to Buffalo.

R1S can get me around 150mi to a charge while towing. Max pack with Dual Motor setup is rated at 410mi with 100% charge. Take some off for reserve, and use some reported consumption numbers around 1.2-1.4mi/kWh from the forums, and I land around that 150mi round trip acceptable radius.

All of the lakes I would tow to up here, have a supercharger (previously inaccessible for non Tesla EV's) between me and them, so stopping for a 20min "top-off" to get back to the house is possible. The move has also reduced the total distance to the lakes I would "day trip" to. Those geography/infrastructure changes, combined with the larger pack availability, put EV towing back on the table for me. A year ago, I would've agreed.

In Indiana I was a minimum 90mi round trip with frequent trips into the 160mi range to get to our local lakes and back. That combined with the trips being through a "charging desert" in rural IN/KY meant it would be a far more sketchy experience than I would have accepted.

This really drives home the point that EV's still aren't a "one size fits all" solution. They work for some and not for others. I wouldn't expect a trip in the western states with mountains and large distances between "civilization" to be nearly the same workload as what I'm looking at here in western NY region.

The Kia EV9 isn't bad, but the tow rating is lower than I would prefer, and I really don't like the Kia interior designs. They're not bad, just not for me.

I think it's that 20 minute charge in the middle that will be the deal breaker for most people. After a long day on the water, in the woods, outside in general, nobody is gonna want to have to stop for 20 minutes and wait while they top off charge to get home. You're sweaty, smelly, tired, and just want a shower. Worse yet, what if all the stations are taken? What if it's a busy holiday weekend and there's cars waiting in from of you? What if the charge rates are slow? Obviously these are situations that a gas station would have too, but a gas station is gonna fill you up in 2-5 minutes, not 20+. Then factor in that charging at a station is usually more expensive than gas is, it's kind of a losing combo.

I think you'd be happiest just leasing something that offers a luxury experience with loaners and all that. Negotiate a secretary into your next contract to take care of car stuff for you, lol

 

[2kwik4u]

For his requirements he may have to do some work. He can add brakes for under 1k. The car is well under his 100k threshold.

Side note, I never knew they published tow rating for brake or no brake trailers.

Yea, the 190 I have now has no brakes. I wouldn't mind adding them. I despise surge brakes and will not own them any longer than it takes me to upgrade to either full electric, or an EOH system. For the 190, I would just add a full electric setup. I think Fulton made a product called "sharkskin" brakes awhile back. Fully submersible electrics.......that's a conversation for another day.

We are looking into moving to the 25ft class. Not sure if we'll continue to tow regularly or slip for the summers up here. Have at least another summer with the 190 to explore the area and decide if we're in the wrong water, or if we need a bigger boat.

Owners manual on every vehicle I've had that towed had a separate listing for braked and un-braked allowable trailer weights. Same with WDH requirements. Usually both are listed as a threshold type spec like "Trailer weight limited to 1,500lbs without appropriate brakes)" or "Max tow rating only achievable with Weight Distributing Hitch". Never an easy to read table that you would expect.

 

[2kwik4u]

I think it's that 20 minute charge in the middle that will be the deal breaker for most people. After a long day on the water, in the woods, outside in general, nobody is gonna want to have to stop for 20 minutes and wait while they top off charge to get home. You're sweaty, smelly, tired, and just want a shower. Worse yet, what if all the stations are taken? What if it's a busy holiday weekend and there's cars waiting in from of you? What if the charge rates are slow? Obviously these are situations that a gas station would have too, but a gas station is gonna fill you up in 2-5 minutes, not 20+. Then factor in that charging at a station is usually more expensive than gas is, it's kind of a losing combo.

I think you'd be happiest just leasing something that offers a luxury experience with loaners and all that. Negotiate a secretary into your next contract to take care of car stuff for you, lol

I've made over 20 road trips this year. 1 of which was a 2k+ tow to Florida and back. I have been purposefully watching the clock all year, just to get an understanding of what kind of time a fuel stop makes. Maybe I should be harsher on the passengers, or practice more NASCAR style stops, but I have yet to break 15min for a stop for fuel. If the family is with me it's easily over 20min. Putting a 20min charge in there isn't going to have a meaningful effect on time spent in the car, or at the stop. As for the trip home after a day on the lake. Most of the time they're either asleep or on devices. Again, a 30min charge stop isn't going to move the needle on a 12+hr day.

Beyond that, I'm not going to plan a major purchase around having these sort of details completely sorted for every possible "worst case" scenario. If I lived like that, I wouldn't ever leave the house. Had two flat tires on the trailer during the trip to Buffalo this spring. Doesn't mean I'm going to start carrying 3 spares with me, I just figured it the eff out and moved on with me day. If I planned everything and prepared for every possible worst case scenario, cheese and rice it would be exhausting. At some level, you just gotta take your lumps if you have an outlier of a day, or shit goes sideways.

 

[BlkGS]

That's an auto industry problem not an EV problem.

I'm finding here that we fall on different sides of the "glass half full or glass half empty" debate

Totally agreed. It's industry wide. Every new model seems just a little cheaper than the outgoing one, which is a very bad thing when your prices are going up. The whole point of a new model is to improve and make people want to buy the new one. You make the interior more upscale, add new features, make it more powerful and efficient, that kinda stuff. Now they're like "the new model we have removed buttons and out it all in a screen! When you want to turn on your heated seats, press the home icon on the screen, then go to climate, then go to driver, then go to seating, then go to heater, then pick what level of heating you want. Much more modern than a single button to do it!"

I think the auto industry is going to really regret cost cutting so much. And all brands are doing it on like all models. BMW got irid of its excellent laser lights for regular old LEDs, because cheaper. They're switching to "vegan leather" plastics because they're cheaper. The big issue is when you cost cut and push prices too high, when you hit the tipping point, it's too late, you've already lost your market share.

 

[BlkGS]

I've made over 20 road trips this year. 1 of which was a 2k+ tow to Florida and back. I have been purposefully watching the clock all year, just to get an understanding of what kind of time a fuel stop makes. Maybe I should be harsher on the passengers, or practice more NASCAR style stops, but I have yet to break 15min for a stop for fuel. If the family is with me it's easily over 20min. Putting a 20min charge in there isn't going to have a meaningful effect on time spent in the car, or at the stop. As for the trip home after a day on the lake. Most of the time they're either asleep or on devices. Again, a 30min charge stop isn't going to move the needle on a 12+hr day.

Beyond that, I'm not going to plan a major purchase around having these sort of details completely sorted for every possible "worst case" scenario. If I lived like that, I wouldn't ever leave the house. Had two flat tires on the trailer during the trip to Buffalo this spring. Doesn't mean I'm going to start carrying 3 spares with me, I just figured it the eff out and moved on with me day. If I planned everything and prepared for every possible worst case scenario, cheese and rice it would be exhausting. At some level, you just gotta take your lumps if you have an outlier of a day, or shit goes sideways.

Totally agree, but I also don't make expensive purchases on things that are going to be intentionally less useful.

That said, if the charge times work for you, then it's a moot point. My kids are still young enough that we can make a stop pretty quick. We also decided that taking long trips with two young kids sucks and we aren't gonna be doing that much, lol.

That said, you're a 2 car house. I don't think it makes sense to have 1 car that has to do everything. It'd make a LOT more sense for your EV to be just an easy, low effort commuter, and have your wife's car be a towing, hauling, family vehicles.