Gas prices

[swatski]

I am sorry oil and gas hurt your feelings somewhere along the way..

Put your money where your mouth is and quit them cold turkey. Until then your just a blow hard..

I burn gas with gusto, and will continue as long as it is there for me to buy and burn. I've been called worse.

 

[BlkGS]

A gigantic pipeline wouldn't increase the supply available in the US, reducing the fear of shortages driving up prices right now? That's a novel concept I guess? Common core math economics perhaps?

 

[Bruce]

A gigantic pipeline wouldn't increase the supply available in the US, reducing the fear of shortages driving up prices right now? That's a novel concept I guess? Common core math economics perhaps?

Pipelines do not produce oil they only transport it. So no it would not have increased supply.

The Canadian bitumen, a precursor to oil, that might have traveled the Keystone XL pipeline is currently transported by truck and rail. Once through the Keystone XL it would have gone to gulf coast refineries that export a large portion of their output.

We are already receiving record amounts of Canadian "oil" including the tar sands bitumen.

Even without Keystone XL, U.S. set for record Canadian oil imports

The Keystone XL pipeline project may be dead, but the United States is still poised to pull in record imports of Canadian oil in coming years through other pipelines that are in the midst of expanding.

www.reuters.com

 

[zipper]

So…

I need to figure out how to sail. Not to escape gas but to escape from everyone. This world needs an enema.

You will figure it out pretty quick. You just gotta want to.
Why do you think I sail and live on a farm in the hills overlooking the Champlain Valley. I deal more with Mother Nature than I do with people. Except during pick your own season. Even our slip is out in “boonies” at the marina.

 

[Farny]

How things have changed . What were the prices Jan 2021? These are May 2021 -May 2022 prices..

 

[FSH 210 Sport]

Pipelines do not produce oil they only transport it. So no it would not have increased supply.

The Canadian bitumen, a precursor to oil, that might have traveled the Keystone XL pipeline is currently transported by truck and rail. Once through the Keystone XL it would have gone to gulf coast refineries that export a large portion of their output.

We are already receiving record amounts of Canadian "oil" including the tar sands bitumen.

Even without Keystone XL, U.S. set for record Canadian oil imports

The Keystone XL pipeline project may be dead, but the United States is still poised to pull in record imports of Canadian oil in coming years through other pipelines that are in the midst of expanding.

www.reuters.com

Kinda like how batteries don’t produce electricity they just store it .

The majority of the oil is transported by Warren Buffets trains, think about that. Reminds me of Huntington and Rockefeller.

The destination of the crude in the pipeline, just like the crude transported by rail and truck would have also been delivered to refineries along the way to gulf coast refineries.

One thing I see has been overlooked in the discussion about the leases, the access to the leases has been stymied by the federal government, those access routes that have been approved are usually tied up in court in environmental groups which receive funding from those who have vested interests in other forms of energy.

If you all want to watch a documentary that clearly illustrates the fallacy and utter toxicity of “renewable” energy watch The Planet of The Humans. https://planetofthehumans.com/ I’m not a fan of MM… it took a fair amount of convincing by a former colleague to get me to watch it.

Be Excellent to each other…
Wild Stallions

 

[Farny]

Kinda like how batteries don’t produce electricity they just store it .

The majority of the oil is transported by Warren Buffets trains, think about that. Reminds me of Huntington and Rockefeller.

The destination of the crude in the pipeline, just like the crude transported by rail and truck would have also been delivered to refineries along the way to gulf coast refineries.

One thing I see has been overlooked in the discussion about the leases, the access to the leases has been stymied by the federal government, those access routes that have been approved are usually tied up in court in environmental groups which receive funding from those who have vested interests in other forms of energy.

If you all want to watch a documentary that clearly illustrates the fallacy of “renewable” energy watch The Planet of The Humans. https://planetofthehumans.com/ I’m not a fan of MM… it took a fair amount of convincing by a former colleague to get me to watch it.

Be Excellent to each other…
Wild Stallions

also check out SpOILed the movie

 

[swatski]

A gigantic pipeline wouldn't increase the supply available in the US, reducing the fear of shortages driving up prices right now? That's a novel concept I guess? Common core math economics perhaps?

Problem is, you are not using it (common core math? whatever it is).

For starters, you are not talking about the “light sweet” crude that sets the benchmark for the value of oil, instead it is tar/bitumen; production consumes enormous amounts of energy in pursuit of... energy; gas is burned to produce steam that’s injected underground to free up tar which then requires more energy to be processed - to the tune of some $60-80 a barrel, then add to it transportation cost of $20-30 estimated for US and its profit margins start to look... farcical.

Ultimate irony: the process is so expensive, and acutely toxic, Canadians rejected several of their own pipeline projects; not to mention importing Canadian oil adds competition to domestic oil producers. Given the cost calculation alone most investors have long left this industry behind some time ago.

For one, for us in the US it would make million times more sense to figure out how to package PA natural gas instead of releasing it into thin air than mess around with Canadian tar in the Arctic circle.

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

It’s always silly discussing this topic with folks who don’t know anything about the O&G industry..My fault for assuming you might have some insight. Of course it’s just my simpleton mind ..

It would actually be silly to assume that those with differing opinions don't know anything about the O&G industry. Also important is understanding economics and the world markets.

Jim

 

[Thats]

I think a lot of the public would do well to watch this 20 minute video:

Why Gas Got So Expensive (It’s Not the War) - YouTube

 

[FSH 210 Sport]

I think a lot of the public would do well to watch this 20 minute video:

Why Gas Got So Expensive (It’s Not the War) - YouTube

Watched the vid… the authors admission at the end that this vid is an essay of influence did not go unnoticed as the vid reached the 2/3‘s mark as crucial information was left out, especially the fact that the virus was the reason for oil‘s crash and negative pricing. While the vid author states this as unprecedented, in point of fact, the unprecedented nature of oils crash was the unprecedented shutdown of the worlds economy and demand for all intents and purposes stopped, and this is not mentioned as part of his persuasive essay, which makes his essay… dubious. The causation for oils 2020 crash is left as some existential occurrence….

To be fair, the historical aspect of oil, the Caspian Sea, the fact that pipelines are 3-5 times cheaper as far as transportation cost goes, as well the safety and ecological gains of pipelines was refreshing to see.

The author also states that the BLM has 9000 unused drilling permits, but fails to mention how many are tied up in court, and more importantly how many of those leases are not reachable due to the BLM not granting road building access to the permit holders..

The vid’s author states this is the end of oil.. hardly. Oil as a fuel is only one part of what oil is used for, another glaring omission by the author. The author also states that renewables are here to stay, also an incorrect assumption as the economy of oil, and its associated tax revenue to the government, is where the government gets a large amount of its money to subsidize these “renewables”, for without these subsidies the renewable industry could not exist. Further asserted by the author is that these renewables are clean, nothing could be further from the truth, with the exception of hydro and geothermal, all other forms of renewables are a net carbon gain, and produce huge amounts of highly toxic waste products. As stated in my other posts on this subject, wind turbines and solar panels never generate the amount of power that it took to produce them, they are in fact produced by fossil fuels. As a way to diversify the IPR, wind and solar do make some but little sense, mainly due to their intermittency and non dispatchable nature. For without oil, these renewables could not be produced.

As the world economy sorts out all of the knots in the logistical system oil demand will continue to grow, and as such demand will continue to grow. The power of profit will tip the scales towards higher production, and the ensuing bum rush to produce more oil to seek profit will be great. Another persuasive essay could be made as to the ulterior motives behind the driving forces of the world markets.

 

[Bruce]

As stated in my other posts on this subject, wind turbines and solar panels never generate the amount of power that it took to produce them

While that may have been true for some very early products it is far from true now. Wind in particular has a greater energy return on investment (EROI) than many petroleum products.



Source: EROI of different fuels and the implications for society

EROI as high as 123, surpassing all oil sources, has been achieved by wind generators as early as 2003.

https://www.soest.hawaii.edu/GG/FACULTY/ITO/GG410/Wind/Kubiszewski_EROI_Wind_RenEn10.pdf

 

[Rumbo]

Watched the vid… the authors admission at the end that this vid is an essay of influence did not go unnoticed as the vid reached the 2/3‘s mark as crucial information was left out, especially the fact that the virus was the reason for oil‘s crash and negative pricing. While the vid author states this as unprecedented, in point of fact, the unprecedented nature of oils crash was the unprecedented shutdown of the worlds economy and demand for all intents and purposes stopped, and this is not mentioned as part of his persuasive essay, which makes his essay… dubious. The causation for oils 2020 crash is left as some existential occurrence….

To be fair, the historical aspect of oil, the Caspian Sea, the fact that pipelines are 3-5 times cheaper as far as transportation cost goes, as well the safety and ecological gains of pipelines was refreshing to see.

The author also states that the BLM has 9000 unused drilling permits, but fails to mention how many are tied up in court, and more importantly how many of those leases are not reachable due to the BLM not granting road building access to the permit holders..

The vid’s author states this is the end of oil.. hardly. Oil as a fuel is only one part of what oil is used for, another glaring omission by the author. The author also states that renewables are here to stay, also an incorrect assumption as the economy of oil, and its associated tax revenue to the government, is where the government gets a large amount of its money to subsidize these “renewables”, for without these subsidies the renewable industry could not exist. Further asserted by the author is that these renewables are clean, nothing could be further from the truth, with the exception of hydro and geothermal, all other forms of renewables are a net carbon gain, and produce huge amounts of highly toxic waste products. As stated in my other posts on this subject, wind turbines and solar panels never generate the amount of power that it took to produce them, they are in fact produced by fossil fuels. As a way to diversify the IPR, wind and solar do make some but little sense, mainly due to their intermittency and non dispatchable nature. For without oil, these renewables could not be produced.

As the world economy sorts out all of the knots in the logistical system oil demand will continue to grow, and as such demand will continue to grow. The power of profit will tip the scales towards higher production, and the ensuing bum rush to produce more oil to seek profit will be great. Another persuasive essay could be made as to the ulterior motives behind the driving forces of the world markets.

I think the only thing that @FHS 210 Sport left out is the influence of ESG on investment by oil companies. ESG scoring has the power to remove a company like Tesla from the S&P500. If Tesla, being a company founded by an African-American immigrant who’s primary mission is to save the planet by eliminating carbon emissions caused by transportation can be a target of ESG, what is this scoring going to do to oil producing companies? Additional investment by oil companies will without question lower their ESG scores which is ceasing investment and lending in them. Because of ESG, projected returns on investment of any carbon emitting infrastructure is very uncertain and these companies are not willing to take that risk right now.

*Note… Elon is an African-American immigrant. That is not a typo above.

 

[PJ73]

 

[Dennis P]

Guys, we produce oil here in Canada and regular is $2.10 a liter, so translates to $8,00 a US gallon, so be happy you live south of the canadian border.

 

[Rumbo]

While that may have been true for some very early products it is far from true now. Wind in particular has a greater energy return on investment (EROI) than many petroleum products.

View attachment 178577

Source: EROI of different fuels and the implications for society

EROI as high as 123, surpassing all oil sources, has been achieved by wind generators as early as 2003.

https://www.soest.hawaii.edu/GG/FACULTY/ITO/GG410/Wind/Kubiszewski_EROI_Wind_RenEn10.pdf

Apples to oranges here…@FSH 210 Sport was talking about carbon output to create wind turbines

Further asserted by the author is that these renewables are clean, nothing could be further from the truth, with the exception of hydro and geothermal, all other forms of renewables are a net carbon gain, and produce huge amounts of highly toxic waste products

Your EROI chart is referring to investment into these sources of energy. Furthermore, these EROI’s are not factoring in government incentives. Wind turbines are damn near free when paid for from tax revenue generated from fossil fuels as FSH 210 Sport stated.

 

[Bruce]

Your EROI chart is referring to investment into these sources of energy. Furthermore, these EROI’s are not factoring in government incentives.

@Rumbo, perhaps you could read more and write fewer false statements?

“Energy return on investment (EROI) is a means of measuring the quality of various fuels by calculating the ratio between the energy delivered by a particular fuel to society and the energy invested in the capture and delivery of this energy.”

As for CO2 used to construct versus saved by using wind generation this is an interesting publication.

“The analysis shows that per kilowatt-hour of electricity generated by the turbine, the energy intensity and CO2 emissions are comparable with larger wind turbines and significantly lower than fossil-fuelled generation.”

“the energy payback period was found to be between 17 and 25 months, whereas the CO2 payback was between 13 and 20 months. Across the full production range, the energy and carbon payback periods were 13–50 months and 10–39 months, respectively.”

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1243/09576509jpe306

 

[Farny]

Maybe big bad inefficient oil and gas should go ahead and shut down. Oh but then we couldn’t manufacture windmills, batteries, solar panels, generators for hydroelectric, makeup, insulted wire, textiles, food packaging, vaccines, other pharmaceuticals, masks, Marine Mat, trailer tires, plastics, build roads, yeti cups & coolers, televisions, cell phones, boats, fishing line, grease for intermediate bearings, WetSounds, (opens dictionary, reads most all nouns which are manufactured items) smh.. who writes carbon payback periods anyway? Sorry just can’t accept the CO2 premise

 

[Bruce]

@Farny, we certainly should use petroleum where and when it makes sense and is available which currently is much of the time.

This started as a discussion of fuel prices which somehow became a series of attacks on alternative energy sources based on outdated or false information.

It would be very expensive and impractical to achieve the performance and range of our boats using current battery technology but the more cars that transition to electric the more gas that will be available for boating.

As for the hydrocarbons that we manufacture so many products, even asphalt roads from, we will need to shift from using old hydrocarbons pumped out of the ground to new hydrocarbons freshly grown in fields as the pumped version becomes unreasonably difficult to access. Some products are already transitioning. Most or all will as it becomes economically beneficial.

 

[Farny]

@Farny, we certainly should use petroleum where and when it makes sense and is available which currently is much of the time.

This started as a discussion of fuel prices which somehow became a series of attacks on alternative energy sources based on outdated or false information.

It would be very expensive and impractical to achieve the performance and range of our boats using current battery technology but the more cars that transition to electric the more gas that will be available for boating.

As for the hydrocarbons that we manufacture so many products, even asphalt roads from, we will need to shift from using old hydrocarbons pumped out of the ground to new hydrocarbons freshly grown in fields as the pumped version becomes unreasonably difficult to access. Some products are already transitioning. Most or all will as it becomes economically beneficial.

Simple answer is natural gas vehicles - extremely plentiful and very clean burning. The premis of CO2 reduction by going to electric cars is the one I just can’t accept. Trace everything back and it’s some kind of natural resource mining. Much of that are rare earth elements less plentiful than oil and gas. Look up the discovery in Guyana, bigger find than Saudi. Some of the rare earth metal mining is pretty nasty as well.

have to admit I don’t know much about growing a hydrocarbon replacement through farming, but I do know it takes more to produce ethanol than the output of ethanol (Iowa caucus state)