The Vaccine

[Crob83]

If they are dying and not related to the vaccines why are they being reported in the system?

Probably the same reason people were dying from other underlying conditions and we're being labeled as covid deaths is my guess. Numbers are always not going to be exactly accurate (if there is a chance, then that's what they report it as) is how I interpret it

 

[tabbibus]

CDC reviews death of Michigan woman who got Johnson & Johnson vaccine -- everything you should know (clickondetroit.com)

It appears that they couldn't attribute the death to the vaccine. She died after getting the vaccine which may or may not have been a contributing factor.

The association is with CVST not with SAH, which is what she died from. One is a clot, the other is a bleed. Every death sucks. Specially in young people. But at the moment, there is no known association with JJ (or any other covid shot) and SAH. And as a related aside, SAH is something that can happen spontaneously as well, without any precipitating factor.

 

[HangOutdoors]

@tabbibus I guess my point was, is that how things that happen are reported and how they are "Made" to look. The family was on the local news stations a short time ago, blaming government, CDC, Governor and everyone else because they believed it was the direct cause of the vaccine and they also hired an attorney to sue whomever they can for undisclosed sums. It seems to me that a lot of the info put forth also fits the narrative of the source at times.

 

[2kwik4u]

It seems to me that a lot of the info put forth also fits the narrative of the source at times.

One must ALWAYS consider the source, and the subsequent motives. Rarely are reports altruistic, or just an information dump. Even basic "evening news" from your local station has some level of "In our next segment (after this short ad break) we reveal....". The lack of segmentation between information dispersion and entertainment delivery is a hard line for many many people to follow (myself included).

This, IMO, is at the forefront of many "disagreements" on key issues in any number of arena's. I'm not sure I have a solution beyond (the admittedly overly broad premise of ) better education.

 

[Julian]

One must ALWAYS consider the source, and the subsequent motives. Rarely are reports altruistic, or just an information dump. Even basic "evening news" from your local station has some level of "In our next segment (after this short ad break) we reveal....". The lack of segmentation between information dispersion and entertainment delivery is a hard line for many many people to follow (myself included).

This, IMO, is at the forefront of many "disagreements" on key issues in any number of arena's. I'm not sure I have a solution beyond (the admittedly overly broad premise of ) better education.

Unfortunately there is a lot of money to be made in cooking up stories that sounds plausible (have some kernels of truth) but are wildly wrong - but appeal to our biases and predispositions to believe them. Click bait to its core. We see if everywhere now. A photo an insanely steep looking bridge (taken from a SUPER long lens that distorts perspective) - with a caption - the most dangerous bridges in the US - total hogwash...but people click on it - and they make money every time they do. The problem is, there is no way to stop the disinformation. So the only way to counter it is to be informed, and critical, of anything and everything you read. Check their sources. Read the fact check sites. And do our best to try to understand the data.

Yes....over 5000 people have died after being vaccinated. From the CDC's perspective - there is no trend - and 5000 people were expected to die in that sample size.

 

[HangOutdoors]

The problem is, there is no way to stop the disinformation. So the only way to counter it is to be informed, and critical, of anything and everything you read. Check their sources. Read the fact check sites. And do our best to try to understand the data.

But there in lies the problem. It takes effort to do these things. For a good portion of the populous that is just too much work. Look at all the jobs available right now and I see so many people whom would rather sit at home and get paid less because it takes no effort. It is easy to just consume what is fed to you as fact rather then actually working through all the data and information to come to an informed well foundated decision.

I don't anticipate it will be getting any better as time moves on either. It makes me sad.

 

[tabbibus]

Unfortunately there is a lot of money to be made in cooking up stories that sounds plausible (have some kernels of truth) but are wildly wrong - but appeal to our biases and predispositions to believe them. Click bait to its core. We see if everywhere now. A photo an insanely steep looking bridge (taken from a SUPER long lens that distorts perspective) - with a caption - the most dangerous bridges in the US - total hogwash...but people click on it - and they make money every time they do. The problem is, there is no way to stop the disinformation. So the only way to counter it is to be informed, and critical, of anything and everything you read. Check their sources. Read the fact check sites. And do our best to try to understand the data.

Yes....over 5000 people have died after being vaccinated. From the CDC's perspective - there is no trend - and 5000 people were expected to die in that sample size.

I know the bridge you are talking about. lol. I clicked on it once. /sad

 

[2kwik4u]

But there in lies the problem. It takes effort to do these things. For a good portion of the populous that is just too much work. Look at all the jobs available right now and I see so many people whom would rather sit at home and get paid less because it takes no effort. It is easy to just consume what is fed to you as fact rather then actually working through all the data and information to come to an informed well foundated decision.

I don't anticipate it will be getting any better as time moves on either. It makes me sad.

You're 100% correct here.

I think we could all see this trend coming from a mile away. When the "smart kids" in school are shunned during an extremely vulnerable time of developing self image, you end up with a community of poorly educated individuals. Beyond the change in education I mentioned above, there HAS to be a shift in community perspective on what is and isn't important, and critical thinking, problem solving, and individual intelligence has to rise to the top. We, as a country (arguably as a world), are doing really really poorly at that.

 

[Julian]

My brother's restaurant in Brandon (O'Toole's) has survived the last year of Covid, and now he can't get employees. He's facing having to shut down during the day because employees would rather sit home and take unemployment than work for $15-20/hour. Applicants are calling to interview, ask him to send them the appointment info in an email, then they never show up. They use the email to file their claim that they are looking. It is insane.....and this will continue through September.

 

[BigN8]

Sad.....

 

[mark_m]

My brother's restaurant in Brandon (O'Toole's) has survived the last year of Covid, and now he can't get employees. He's facing having to shut down during the day because employees would rather sit home and take unemployment than work for $15-20/hour. Applicants are calling to interview, ask him to send them the appointment info in an email, then they never show up. They use the email to file their claim that they are looking. It is insane.....and this will continue through September.

Yep. Hearing similar stories from friends that are having issues staffing across skilled facility healthcare. Heck, our local waste, recycle pickups is a day late now because they’re short staffed and can’t cover the routes. Hopefully things will return to equilibrium organically as we move past this.

 

[jlcj7]

I understand the early incentive to pay people to stay home (especially those who lost jobs as a result of quarantine) but at this stage with vaccines widely available and many others who have already had it, I would have liked to see the government incentivize people to go back to work (maybe even tie in the vaccine to it if that is the intent). For example in NC most lower income workers can stay home on unemployment + extra federal kick in that equate to $15/hr (probably no coincidence they are pushing a min wage of that amount). A better stimulus would be pay that money to people who re-enter the workforce. Instead of paying people to stay home. Put that money on top of their regular income. The multiplier effect would be huge. But again. I think the real intent is to force companies to pay the $15 wage without passing legislation( which I am not opposed to). I work in an industry that is competing for this labor force (I hire 2,000 plus people a year with heavy turnover) those companies that don’t get there quick will lose out in the long run. But again. (In my opinion) one is what would incentive productivity and GDP growth. The other is what gets an agenda through.

I’m no genius though. So what do I know.

 

[Robconn]

almost non existent is not the same as they "don't exist. period. end of discussion". I never said they were the bulk of patients. I just commented that we have been noticing an increase in younger patients. Which made him call me stupid. I try not to take offence from keyboard trolls, but the degree of hubris was too much for me to stay quiet.

Not to mention our co-worker, 20 something, covid +, vented, S/P code, survived not able to return to work due to extended recovery. Remember CHOA? had their share of covid+ vented children. I believe they had the first Reported infant death in state of GA if not the country. The public has a general sense of skepticism regarding covid. For licensed medical personnel to express such strong convictions that contribute to a false sense of security is not entirely in keeping with serving the public’s best interest. Exploring the remote occurrences as possibilities and a little common sense goes a long way.

 

[Robconn]

I had Covid back in December. I don't want to start an argument but would like to hear input why I would need the vaccine. I had the antibody test showing I had them. Please be gracious to others opinions if you share yours.

My only response is a question. Is it possible to have had covid and still be susceptible to one of the many “newer” strains of covid that are emerging around the world. I honestly don’t know the answer. However, I have seen patients have tested positive for covid, recover from it and subsequently test positive again. Was it due to an impaired immune system? Advanced age? Declining health? Erroneous test results? I don’t have an answer. Although the probability is remote acquiring covid more than once, it may justify considering the vaccine if you already had covid. The vaccine at its best only reduces the severity of symptoms and does not 100% prevent you from acquiring it. Both my son and sister in law have tested positive for covid. Both experienced severe enough symptoms requiring them to go the ER. They both decided to get the vaccine. I would be interested in knowing what your doctor feels is the best course of action for you since you had it.

 

[Julian]

We have now had 3 death in my company in India, ages 26, 32, 42. My lead there had a cousin (31) die. My sample size is getting bigger and more worrisome (in that lots of younger people are dying from this 617 variant)

Since we now know you can get covid multiple times, it is becoming clearer to me that this beast will be like the Flu (only deadlier) and the importance of getting a vaccine will be even higher. Unfortunately given the current trends, its apparently going to take a lot more deaths (more than the 600-700,000) to drive this home in the US.

 

[adrianp89]

We have now had 3 death in my company in India, ages 26, 32, 42. My lead there had a cousin (31) die. My sample size is getting bigger and more worrisome (in that lots of younger people are dying from this 617 variant)

Since we now know you can get covid multiple times, it is becoming clearer to me that this beast will be like the Flu (only deadlier) and the importance of getting a vaccine will be even higher. Unfortunately given the current trends, its apparently going to take a lot more deaths (more than the 600-700,000) to drive this home in the US.

If it isn't driven home for someone yet, it never will be. COVID is a thing of the past here, no one (in general) cares about it in our area. The line in the sand has been drawn and its not changing for 99% of people, you either are getting the vaccine or your not. My echo chamber seems to be most don't care, the economy is booming here and its held back by a lack of workers. Hotel rooms are going for $1000/night because demand is so high, but restaurants are half full because they are at 1/3rd staff. Everything has become insane here, waits for everything, traffic has significantly increased. I meet groups of people from out of state several times a week and they are all here because we are open and they don't care about COVID.

I think one item being discredited in this discussion is that this virus should evolve to be even less deadly (even though many of us don't think it is very deadly anyways).

Now they are talking about booster shots. That is the nail in the coffin for people on the edge of thinking about a vaccine.

 

[Dean P]

My understanding is the virus is fighting to survive so it mutates. It seems with each mutation, it gets stronger (by infecting more people rapidly) and more deadlier than before. If they're advising a 3rd shot, this is due to either longevity of the first or the virus mutating and getting stronger. Either way I'm glad I have some protection. Some is better than nothing. Never liked playing Russian Roulette...too much to live for

 

[HangOutdoors]

I think one item being discredited in this discussion is that this virus should evolve to be even less deadly (even though many of us don't think it is very deadly anyways).

Should isn't really the way it could go, there is no way to tell. It could go in either direction. Virus evolution should never be generalized.

 

[adrianp89]

Should isn't really the way it could go, there is no way to tell. It could go in either direction. Virus evolution should never be generalized.

My understanding is the virus is fighting to survive so it mutates. It seems with each mutation, it gets stronger (by infecting more people rapidly) and more deadlier than before. If they're advising a 3rd shot, this is due to either longevity of the first or the virus mutating and getting stronger. Either way I'm glad I have some protection. Some is better than nothing. Never liked playing Russian Roulette...too much to live for

In order for it to survive (and thrive), it would need to get more contagious and less deadly. I met a biologist a few months back that explained this in a detail that was over my head, but that was what I took away from it.

 

[Beachbummer]

True, but remember the changes are driven by randomness...there is no gradual hone to target, more of random lottery drawn every time it copies and a copy comes out off/different, what does that copy do differently? If it has "better" properties it duplicates more frequently because of that advantage. There is no intelligent thought, "If I kill them less I will reproduce more, let's not go for lung lesions" kind of thing.

The virus is a "THING" just a little ticket with instructions that confuse our bodies into reproducing it. There is a lot of writing and research on whether a virus is dead or alive. My personal conclusion that makes sense of the world I perceive tells me it's dead. (Doesn't eat nor poop, no children or reproduction or growth)

Fascinating topic.