The Vaccine

[Beachbummer]

What makes you think asking folks to keep Masks on vaccinated persons, wasn't political earlier?? ( As in, we know it protects, but we can't control who complies, so tough luck everyone wears a mask?) The proof is in the pudding. 50,000 new cases per day still, 99%+ of all hospitalized and dead are not vaccinated. only 30% of population vaccinated. So, It works, Is that not proof enough? I ask openly with a desire to learn your thoughts, Do you believe this to be true or do you have a trust problem with that info?

If your beef is with the additional restrictions in spite of this knowledge, I share it, but it's a method of sheep control to try to reduce the cases among the non-vaccinated. I don't like it either, but I don't have an easy method to correct it.

 

[I_squared_r]

What makes you think asking folks to keep Masks on vaccinated persons, wasn't political earlier?? ( As in, we know it protects, but we can't control who complies, so tough luck everyone wears a mask?) The proof is in the pudding. 50,000 new cases per day still, 99%+ of all hospitalized and dead are not vaccinated. only 30% of population vaccinated. So, It works, Is that not proof enough? I ask openly with a desire to learn your thoughts, Do you believe this to be true or do you have a trust problem with that info?

If your beef is with the additional restrictions in spite of this knowledge, I share it, but it's a method of sheep control to try to reduce the cases among the non-vaccinated. I don't like it either, but I don't have an easy method to correct it.

You're talking about another thing. My previous argument wasn't about the effectiveness of vaccines. I am talking about the continuation of lockdown measures in this country that have eroded confidence in the vaccine and hurts people's livelihoods. The government and CDC was sending a message "the vaccine doesn't mean we will go back to normal" and this announcement from the CDC is a change of direction.

I am realizing the locations of a lot of people are southern states that may as well be another country compared to NY. Our personal experiences are very different. Here in NY, the government policies in response to coronavirus have been terrible since day 1. And as a result, the economy here in NY has suffered tremendously. I've been following the vaccination numbers here and 50%+ of people have the vaccine. Then consider who has antibodies.. There's a significant part of our population that have protection from covid, but the lockdowns needlessly continue. It's been a disaster for everyone here except for the people who stay home and collect generous democrat unemployment checks and stimulus (illegal immigrants get a lot of covid benefits too!)

 

[Beachbummer]

Then Yes, I'm sorry for your situation and I share your gripe. These over-excessive measures erode public confidence. I have some family in Spain and they are suffering through similar crazy restrictions, few appear appropriate, but others seem to be theater or power-grab style draconian measures to exercise emergency powers. Can't travel with your family to owned empty house in another town..Who the heck will get more or less sick If that travel is made? Good Luck!

 

[Julian]

On the CDC's new guidance on removing masks for vaccinated persons:

When I tried to return to the USA they required covid testing including fully vaccinated people. The other option was to get proof of recovering from covid within 90 days. This was a major red flag for me because this implies that the government doesn't have faith in the vaccine. This policy is still in effect. Furthermore, the CDC released that statement a few weeks ago that fully vaccinated people need to continue to wear a mask. Everyone in position of power was telling the general public they need to take the vaccine, but it doesn't award anything that suggests protection from the virus. A lot of people I know trust vaccines and are hesitant because the government hasn't put any faith in the vaccine through ending lockdowns and restrictions. "Trust the science" but we still need to hide in our houses while fully vaccinated. This new development is a step in the right direction and it's a major relief. But I can't help but think this is very political because the timing coincides with the decrease of vaccine demand. This government over reach is appalling and violates the freedoms that this country was founded on. There was times in this pandemic that politics were edging closer to south american style politics of enforcing laws that force people to their homes through fines and jail. And it should be needless to say (it isn't in modern day america), there's not 1 country south of the USA that I would like to emulate.

The CDC just announced that vaccinated people don't need to wear masks. That is about as positive a statement about the vaccine as one can make. The REAL problem with making this statement is that now States will relax the mask mandates and have NO WAY to tell if your are vaccinated or not. Business owners don't want that burden! So in effect, buy announcing this, they've encouraged the spread of the disease. The absolute definition of a Catch-22 situation if ever there was one.

But by not announcing this sooner, people think that the vaccine isn't effective. No win situation.

I don't understand your statement around "The other option was to get proof of recovering from covid within 90 days. This was a major red flag for me because this implies that the government doesn't have faith in the vaccine." No clue whatsoever why this is a red flag for the vaccine. All they've said is they'll let you in if you've recently recovered from Covid. That says nothing about the Vaccine. It DOES say something about their hope (hopefully based on data) that immunity built from surviving the infection protect you to some degree.

More and more data is being collected on the effectiveness of the vaccine in terms of preventing the spread. The initial concern was that vaccinated people COULD still spread the disease. We had little data to prove otherwise. Now,. over time, they are seeing that this is not the case. Vaccinated people aren't spreading it (or at a MUCH lower rate). This is MUCH harder to prove and takes much more time.....or large populations over time, to prove.

March - they are hopeful about reduced spread from vaccinated people: Dr. Scott Gottlieb sees promising signs that Covid vaccines reduce virus transmission
April - more data - much stronger position: Yes, vaccines block most transmission of COVID-19
End of April - a study supporting lower spread: Vaccines cut household COVID-19 transmission by up to a half, English data shows

 

[I_squared_r]

Gov. Cuomo says NY isn’t ready to follow federal advice on going maskless

While the CDC released some new maskless guidelines for vaccinated Americans, Gov. Andrew Cuomo said he has not determined if New York will follow suit just yet.

nypost.com

There's an example. I already knew that he will continue masks for at least a few more months.

Then Yes, I'm sorry for your situation and I share your gripe. These over-excessive measures erode public confidence. I have some family in Spain and they are suffering through similar crazy restrictions, few appear appropriate, but others seem to be theater or power-grab style draconian measures to exercise emergency powers. Can't travel with your family to owned empty house in another town..Who the heck will get more or less sick If that travel is made? Good Luck!

I've heard of Spain's issues. I know of lot of countries in south america that have crazy restrictions also. In Bolivia its like, if your last name ends in A then you can go out on a Tuesday. And these restrictions are enforced with police checking people and writing expensive tickets. I can't say for sure why these countries have these issues, but the common denominator is socialist governments.

The city I stayed in Brazil had a conservative mayor and the restrictions weren't too bad. People did common sense things like wear masks and not gather indoors. It was good. But it changed when a leftist mayor was voted in and he lockdown the city and beaches. Then he goes to an island maybe 500ft off shore and brings all of his family to barbecue and enjoy the summer hahaha "do as I say, not as I do"

And another random thought: My friend owns an automated car wash in NY that is 100% contactless. Monthly subscribers drive through without opening their window, the license plate is scanned, and they leave. No interior cleaning. Anyways, the police came at least a dozen times because people were calling the police on him to report someone violating covid restrictions.

 

[tabbibus]

Yeah. I love that we don’t need masks if we are vaccinated. I hate that this will actually lead to non vaccinated/anti vaccine/anti mask people just frolicking around. I'm curious to see if we will find ourselves in another spike or it enough of us are vaccinated to just see an increase but not an overwhelming one. I can deal with that. If people wanna risk getting sick and dieing but it won't overwhelm the system so be it.

India variant is the curve ball. That shit is scary.

 

[I_squared_r]

I don't understand your statement around "The other option was to get proof of recovering from covid within 90 days. This was a major red flag for me because this implies that the government doesn't have faith in the vaccine." No clue whatsoever why this is a red flag for the vaccine. All they've said is they'll let you in if you've recently recovered from Covid. That says nothing about the Vaccine. It DOES say something about their hope (hopefully based on data) that immunity built from surviving the infection protect you to some degree.

The government gives 2 options to return to the country:

1. proof that I recovered from covid within 90 days
2. covid test for vaccinated and unvaccinated people (they specifically said vaccinated people)

I interpret it as this, having the antibodies is more of a guarantee not carrying the virus than being vaccinated. This doesn't make sense to me. And now we don't have to wear a mask, but we still have to get the test?

 

[adrianp89]

Yeah. I love that we don’t need masks if we are vaccinated. I hate that this will actually lead to non vaccinated/anti vaccine/anti mask people just frolicking around. I'm curious to see if we will find ourselves in another spike or it enough of us are vaccinated to just see an increase but not an overwhelming one. I can deal with that. If people wanna risk getting sick and dieing but it won't overwhelm the system so be it.

India variant is the curve ball. That shit is scary.

We already have not been wearing masks. No one says anything around here, nor does anyone really care. Funny how FL is doing so much better than NY.

 

[I_squared_r]

We already have not been wearing masks. No one says anything around here, nor does anyone really care. Funny how FL is doing so much better than NY.

People are walking around outside, by themselves, with 2 masks on. And i'd say 10% of people are driving cars with masks, by themselves, with the windows up.

 

[Dean P]

We already have not been wearing masks. No one says anything around here, nor does anyone really care. Funny how FL is doing so much better than NY.

Your comparing Fl to NY; really? Florida's population is about 21 million people spread out over 65,758 mi². NY is 19 million people spread out over 302.6 mi². This is not exactly comparing apples to apples; more like apples to oranges. NYC was the epicenter for several weeks (more than once). Florida (had spikes) was not. This is not a political thing, to me it looks more like a population thing.

 

[I_squared_r]

Your comparing Fl to NY; really? Florida's population is about 21 million people spread out over 65,758 mi². NY is 19 million people spread out over 302.6 mi². This is not exactly comparing apples to apples; more like apples to oranges. NYC was the epicenter for several weeks (more than once). Florida (had spikes) was not. This is not a political thing, to me it looks more like a population thing.

That looks like population density of florida state versus New York City? I really want to start digging into numbers and stuff, but I need to have restraint and go back to pretending to my company that I am actually designing buildings here. The construction industry hit the brakes hard after a lot of people left NY for Florida. I would go too if Dade County had some mountains to bike on

 

[2kwik4u]

The government gives 2 options to return to the country:

1. proof that I recovered from covid within 90 days
2. covid test for vaccinated and unvaccinated people (they specifically said vaccinated people)

Why does #1 carry more weight than #2.

I read this as EITHER 1 OR 2.

I interpret it as this, having the antibodies is more of a guarantee not carrying the virus than being vaccinated. This doesn't make sense to me. And now we don't have to wear a mask, but we still have to get the test?

Why do you read that differently than I do? What in those requirements is leading to the implication that recovering is any larger of an asset than a negative test.

If they just said "a negatvie covid test", then everyone that is vaccinated would say "why do I have to get a test"......And the answer is the same reason that people who wear condoms sometimes impregnate women. It's really rare, but it happens.

 

[I_squared_r]

If they just said "a negatvie covid test", then everyone that is vaccinated would say "why do I have to get a test"

But vaccinated people are still asking "why do i have to get a test".

......And the answer is the same reason that people who wear condoms sometimes impregnate women. It's really rare, but it happens.

The same can be said about recently recovering from covid within 90 days. The CDC has been saying that reinfection is possible.

 

[Dean P]

That looks like population density of florida state versus New York City? I really want to start digging into numbers and stuff, but I need to have restraint and go back to pretending to my company that I am actually designing buildings here. The construction industry hit the brakes hard after a lot of people left NY for Florida. I would go too if Dade County had some mountains to bike on

LOL on the mountains. You'll be luck to find a hill !

I am talking population. COVID was so sneaky that it took a couple days before someone started showing symptoms. So people were spreading it without knowing it. High populated areas got infected so quickly no one knew what the hell hit them. The results...well that is now history.

 

[kgower]

Gov. Cuomo says NY isn’t ready to follow federal advice on going maskless

While the CDC released some new maskless guidelines for vaccinated Americans, Gov. Andrew Cuomo said he has not determined if New York will follow suit just yet.

nypost.com

There's an example. I already knew that he will continue masks for at least a few more months.



I've heard of Spain's issues. I know of lot of countries in south america that have crazy restrictions also. In Bolivia its like, if your last name ends in A then you can go out on a Tuesday. And these restrictions are enforced with police checking people and writing expensive tickets. I can't say for sure why these countries have these issues, but the common denominator is socialist governments.

The city I stayed in Brazil had a conservative mayor and the restrictions weren't too bad. People did common sense things like wear masks and not gather indoors. It was good. But it changed when a leftist mayor was voted in and he lockdown the city and beaches. Then he goes to an island maybe 500ft off shore and brings all of his family to barbecue and enjoy the summer hahaha "do as I say, not as I do"

And another random thought: My friend owns an automated car wash in NY that is 100% contactless. Monthly subscribers drive through without opening their window, the license plate is scanned, and they leave. No interior cleaning. Anyways, the police came at least a dozen times because people were calling the police on him to report someone violating covid restrictions.

Our incompetent Governor here in VA will probably dp the same.

 

[Dean P]

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
When you try to please everyone, you end up pleasing no one.
When should living/life take precedence?
Opinions are like butt holes, everyone has one.
I'll stick with the science over anyone's "opinion".
Honestly, what would you do if you were in their shoes with the same responsibility?
Like I said...Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

 

[tabbibus]

But vaccinated people are still asking "why do i have to get a test".



The same can be said about recently recovering from covid within 90 days. The CDC has been saying that reinfection is possible.

So in our hospital we used to make people get covid test before surgery or endoscopies. Now proof of vaccination is enough.

 

[2kwik4u]

But vaccinated people are still asking "why do i have to get a test".

The same can be said about recently recovering from covid within 90 days. The CDC has been saying that reinfection is possible.

Exactly. Reinfection is possible. So is initial infection after vaccination. Odds are against either of those happening, but it's still possible, thus the testing.

So why do you feel that the government is weighting having covid and recovering as higher importance than having the vaccine? It's the same level of risk, you have to prove a negative test in both conditions.

 

[Julian]

@I_squared_r also, that guidance you speak of is no longer the case. If you have a vaccine, you no longer need to get tested to come into the country (from some countries anyway) - like the Bahamas!!! WOOT https://travel.usnews.com/features/where-can-you-travel-if-youre-vaccinated

As for NY vs FL - this was a primary argument (that I agreed with) on why States should be allowed to drive their own response. The population density in NYC is higher than probably ANY other place in the US. It was the epicenter for a reason - people in close proximity - that are dependent on public transport (when I lived in NYC MANY people didn't own cars - it was a PITA to have a car there and keep fighting or paying out the ass for parking). It is the definition of perfect place to spread an airborne disease.....enclosed subways and buses STUFFED with people!!! (still think the FEDs should have given guidance on high density vs low density Covid response).

 

[I_squared_r]

@I_squared_r also, that guidance you speak of is no longer the case. If you have a vaccine, you no longer need to get tested to come into the country (from some countries anyway) - like the Bahamas!!! WOOT https://travel.usnews.com/features/where-can-you-travel-if-youre-vaccinated

As for NY vs FL - this was a primary argument (that I agreed with) on why States should be allowed to drive their own response. The population density in NYC is higher than probably ANY other place in the US. It was the epicenter for a reason - people in close proximity - that are dependent on public transport (when I lived in NYC MANY people didn't own cars - it was a PITA to have a car there and keep fighting or paying out the ass for parking). It is the definition of perfect place to spread an airborne disease.....enclosed subways and buses STUFFED with people!!! (still think the FEDs should have given guidance on high density vs low density Covid response).

We still need testing to come into the united states, vaccinated or not. I'm going to mexico next month so I looked a few days ago. Mexico doesnt require testing, but United States does.

You're right that very few people have cars here. My friend is buying 1 and I warned her multiple times that it's not worth the problems. Better to rent a car. Especially in her neighborhood there isn't parking garages and people spend 30+ minutes driving around for parking spots. Then there is parking enforcement that goes around writing tickets 24/7 and you can't slip up at all. I always check every sign, marking, etc. to ensure that i'm parked legally, but I still get tickets. They wrote me a ticket because my emissions inspection sticker had a crease in it. NYC is very anti-car and they do everything to encourage people to use their overcrowded public transportation. But its worth noting that since the pandemic, a lot of people are buying cars and the traffic is worse.