The Vaccine

[Jim_in_Delaware]

Science is a body of knowledge. And this is why it can change over time. This body of knowledge is a lot more useful than any single person saying such and such is bad (or good) based on their personal experience.

I do find the conclusion of the Brownstone Institute's Review and Autopsy of two COVID Immunity Studies to be a bit silly, as it attempts to show that one study is better than the other. Given that the effected populations are not the same and there are likely different variants involved, I'm not sure a direct comparison can be made. My personal opinion, is that they are both valuable studies and feed into the body of knowledge that we have on this virus.

Jim

 

[MidnightRider]

I think Science is the best we know "NOW". There are many things we don't know.

but let me make the opposite argument...

Skepticism alone for fear of unknown, when we KNOW with data certain things to be true is not cool either. Why would you pass on a vaccine that increases your chance of survival 24X, after it has been administered for 200 million people with no concerning/major side effects? (Not that that's your case, but for whoever thinks that...) You must at least articulate your position in a reasonable way for others. I think "I'm afraid of potential side effects" at this stage is not very reasonable with such as wide distribution. You are free to think it, but other are also free to think that's not a reasonable position, and we can agree to disagree, but at least we understand each other's position.

As of September 24th...
Of the nearly 19,000 Texas deaths attributed to COVID-19 since early February, 119 were fully vaccinated according to preliminary data from the state health department.

Amid a sharp rise in COVID-19 deaths this summer, more Texans under 60 are dying

Health officials say that the state’s high rate of unvaccinated people contributed to a summer surge in hospitalizations, which preceded the spike in deaths.

www.texastribune.org

Again, I think specific concerns can be discussed and learned about. Overly broad statements "We can't trust blindly in science" or "Such and Such is an idiot because he thinks the earth is flat" don't help a whole lot, even if they are true from your perspective.

You are making my point for me. You may trust in the science you read as much as you like, we all need to. My point is that science is not absolute truth at any point, yet this sentiment more and more. Arguments against hesitation or consideration are simply becoming "but its science" like its absolute truth. The truth is that science can't know what it doesn't know. You are welcome to complete trust science that is known today but others are also completely valid in being hesitant to do so. I have 2 close people I know that have been harmed by vaccines, 1 of which seems to be a life long injury. These are confirmed injuries by the doctor and known side effects. They have every right to be hesitant to ever take any vaccine ever again that "science" deems safe. People need to be allow to make their own decisions on how much they trust science especially when it comes to their own body without being threatened for doing so.

 

[MidnightRider]

Masks are another one. Schools are requiring masks based on "science". Bull shit, there is no way you can convince me that a loosely fitting cotton mask will keep a kid from catching covid from other kids while spending 7 hrs in the same room breathing the same air as each other. Science does not make it true. But how dare we argue with "Science".

Edit: not saying masks don't help "some" in some situations, but classrooms and airplanes? with loosely fitting cloth masks? BS

 

[John McLaughlin]

No seriously. What's the issue? How many shots did you get as a kid? We do yearly flu shots. Why is this different if it can keep me from dying from a disease. I'd love to hear the argument of why my comment sounds so ridiculous in your view.

My Wife and I were saying the same thing the other day about the yearly flu shots, however I do believe the other shots for polio, measles etc were one time shots. Now to the booster I must also admit I am little nervous about getting it as the side effects seem to be more significant the my first two shot. At least that is what some folks are telling me who got it to include my daughter. No doubt I will still get the booster and I also believe it will be a early shot if not more over the next few years. That is ok with me if it keeps me from getting the virus.

 

[Beachbummer]

@MidnightRider We are not far apart. I'm saying the same thing, except that I am asking you to act on overwhelming data in front of you(don't call it science, call it stuff we know just happened) that is in front of you, or tell me why you don't. We know for sure it spreads via dropplets. Someone spitting near you while they sing with covid, is it more or less likely it goes in your mouth and nose with a mask or without?

I do agree the case counts don't seem to be varied greatly by wearing a mask, but it makes sense if I have covid and don't know it, I should spew less of it with a mask on. So, it seems there is at least some benefit in wearing one.

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

I want to add, however, that a lot of folks are not making a decision on how much they trust science, but rather what other people are telling them about the science. Some sources attempt to be honest in the information they share, others not so much, and some sources are just downright ignorant (I have no doubt that some folks put credence into Niki Minaj's testicles tweet.)

NO ONE has ever said that masks are the be all and end all in the prevention of transmission of the virus. The body of knowledge that we call science, notes that wearing a mask is but one part of helping to prevent virus transmission. Are they 100% effective? Hell no, but when we had a population (now a small population) that was susceptible to catching the virus they are (were) more effective than the option of not being masked. I would also add that anyone wearing a loosely fitting cotton mask is not wearing a mask correctly or needs a better fitting mask.

Regarding schools, mask wearing is only one part of the preventative actions. Many schools are also distancing students the best they can and actually have upgraded HVAC systems at the schools. For school HVAC systems, I believe the benchmark is 4 - 6 air changes per hour.

Jim

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

My Wife and I were saying the same thing the other day about the yearly flu shots, however I do believe the other shots for polio, measles etc were one time shots. Now to the booster I must also admit I am little nervous about getting it as the side effects seem to be more significant the my first two shot. At least that is what some folks are telling me who got it to include my daughter. No doubt I will still get the booster and I also believe it will be a early shot if not more over the next few years. That is ok with me if it keeps me from getting the virus.

My daughter (mid-20's) had the same experience with the booster, in that she had more joint pains (lasted for 2 days) than she did with the first two shots. My wife and I also do plan on getting the booster when the time comes for us to do so.

Jim

 

[MidnightRider]

@MidnightRider We are not far apart. I'm saying the same thing, except that I am asking you to act on overwhelming data in front of you(don't call it science, call it stuff we know just happened) that is in front of you, or tell me why you don't. We know for sure it spreads via dropplets. Someone spitting near you while they sing with covid, is it more or less likely it goes in your mouth and nose with a mask or without?

I do agree the case counts don't seem to be varied greatly by wearing a mask, but it makes sense if I have covid and don't know it, I should spew less of it with a mask on. So, it seems there is at least some benefit in wearing one.

Not saying masks don't do anything. Obviously they do, covering your mouth when you sneeze and cough also "helps". What I'm saying is that when you are in a room with 25 other kids with, for the most part, loose fitting cloth masks on - the masks are not going to prevent you from getting covid. If a kid attends school covid positive and spends the day breathing the same air as the other 25 kids, those type of mask measures will not keep you safe from getting covid. Sure it would help if they coughed on you and maybe it helps prevents infection for an hour more than without. But 7hrs in the same room breathing the same air, there is no science that would support that. Yet that is the argument, "we are going by the science". That is BS. So we are handicapping our kids social and their learning experience to keep them safe for the first hr of the school day... who cares - they are going to be there for 7hrs. Let alone they all take them off to eat and then run outside after school and rough house all over each other without masks. Its stupid and just doesn't make any sense in this situation in my opinion. But "we are following the science". Airplanes are the same thing, type of masks, fitting, and eating going on - the measure as instituted is not supported by science, yet that is the argument.

Admittedly I'm venting about 2 different but related issues. 1. Using the phrase science to support main stream ideas that aren't truly supported by science. 2. Forcing vaccination because it is supported by science as if science is an absolute truth. There is room to disagree and be hesitant with in realm of a science based debate. That disagreement and hesitancy should be supported, especially when it comes to one's own body, not threatened.

 

[Julian]

Not saying masks don't do anything. Obviously they do, covering your mouth when you sneeze and cough also "helps". What I'm saying is that when you are in a room with 25 other kids with, for the most part, loose fitting cloth masks on - the masks are not going to prevent you from getting covid. If a kid attends school covid positive and spends the day breathing the same air as the other 25 kids, those type of mask measures will not keep you safe from getting covid. Sure it would help if they coughed on you and maybe it helps prevents infection for an hour more than without. But 7hrs in the same room breathing the same air, there is no science that would support that. Yet that is the argument, "we are going by the science". That is BS. So we are handicapping our kids social and their learning experience to keep them safe for the first hr of the school day... who cares - they are going to be there for 7hrs. Let alone they all take them off to eat and then run outside after school and rough house all over each other without masks. Its stupid and just doesn't make any sense in this situation in my opinion. But "we are following the science". Airplanes are the same thing, type of masks, fitting, and eating going on - the measure as instituted is not supported by science, yet that is the argument.

Admittedly I'm venting about 2 different but related issues. 1. Using the phrase science to support main stream ideas that aren't truly supported by science. 2. Forcing vaccination because it is supported by science as if science is an absolute truth. There is room to disagree and be hesitant with in realm of a science based debate. That disagreement and hesitancy should be supported, especially when it comes to one's own body, not threatened.

How do you get to say wearing a cotton mask doesn't help? I gather your "science" is better than actual science? Wearing cotton masks certainly is the least useful, as in like N20 protection. But the number of people in the room doesn't matter. No reason we shouldn't mandate kn95 masks....they are far more effective. Also teach the kids and staff how to wear one!

Your reaction - calling mask wearing bs - is simply not supported by anyone in the healthcare realm. Doctors and nurses wear them all day and are protected by them. We have known they work for over a century (cloth ones).

This is the sort of topic that this thread has had some interesting discussions about.

Railing against masks in schools is absurd. Now if you are saying get kids proper masks and training to wear them....I concur. Simply throwing the baby out with the bath water....well there's a reason for that saying.

 

[John McLaughlin]

Here is my personal opinion about wearing masks. It is about money. First you do not have to wear them at concerts or other large venues such as professional sports. why IMO it is about making money. Now again in my opinion schools are requiring children to wear masks because they do not want to be sued. Ie again about money. Now don't get me wrong I do think masks help but I also believe it is more about money then our children. Just my humble opinion.

 

[Julian]

Here is my personal opinion about wearing masks. It is about money. First you do not have to wear them at concerts or other large venues such as professional sports. why IMO it is about making money. Now again in my opinion schools are requiring children to wear masks because they do not want to be sued. Ie again about money. Now don't get me wrong I do think masks help but I also believe it is more about money then our children. Just my humble opinion.

The only reason they aren't enforcing them uniformly is because of people complaining about them. They don't want to upset the anti maskers- and yes - lose their money.

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

John,

I think one difference, however, is that the majority of adults at this time are vaccinated while the children are not. Hopefully, as more children get vaccinated, we may not see the need for masks at schools.

Venues are an interesting issue. Even being vaccinated at this point, I'm not ready to go to a concert at an indoor venue, maybe in a couple of months, will have to wait and see. I did go to a concert at the Maryland State Fair, outdoor venue in the racetrack infield.

Jim

 

[Bruce]

Here is my personal opinion about wearing masks. It is about money. First you do not have to wear them at concerts or other large venues such as professional sports. why IMO it is about making money. Now again in my opinion schools are requiring children to wear masks because they do not want to be sued. Ie again about money. Now don't get me wrong I do think masks help but I also believe it is more about money then our children. Just my humble opinion.

John certainly masking has been inconsistent both in requirements and quality of mask however numerous studies have shown significant decreases in transmission in schools that mandated masking compared to those that did not. I agree that more could be achieved with better masking.

One study of Arizona schools found "In the crude analysis, the odds of a school-associated COVID-19 outbreak in schools with no mask requirement were 3.7 times higher than those in schools with an early mask requirement (odds ratio [OR] = 3.7; 95% CI = 2.2–6.5). After adjusting for potential described confounders, the odds of a school-associated COVID-19 outbreak in schools without a mask requirement were 3.5 times higher than those in schools with an early mask requirement (OR = 3.5; 95% CI = 1.8–6.9)."

Association Between K–12 School Mask Policies and School-Associated COVID-19 Outbreaks — Maricopa and Pima Counties, Arizona, July–August 2021

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

An earlier study in Georgia found "Adjusting for county-level incidence, COVID-19 incidence was 37% lower in schools that required teachers and staff members to use masks, and 39% lower in schools that improved ventilation, compared with schools that did not use these prevention strategies."

Mask Use and Ventilation Improvements to Reduce COVID-19 Incidence in Elementary Schools — Georgia, November 16–December 11, 2020

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

This data from schools local to me in Arkansas showed dramatically more cases in unmasked schools compared to masked. Unfortunately the band director of the unmasked school with the highest CoVID prevalence died two days ago.

 

[MidnightRider]

How do you get to say wearing a cotton mask doesn't help? I gather your "science" is better than actual science? Wearing cotton masks certainly is the least useful, as in like N20 protection. But the number of people in the room doesn't matter. No reason we shouldn't mandate kn95 masks....they are far more effective. Also teach the kids and staff how to wear one!

Your reaction - calling mask wearing bs - is simply not supported by anyone in the healthcare realm. Doctors and nurses wear them all day and are protected by them. We have known they work for over a century (cloth ones).

This is the sort of topic that this thread has had some interesting discussions about.

Railing against masks in schools is absurd. Now if you are saying get kids proper masks and training to wear them....I concur. Simply throwing the baby out with the bath water....well there's a reason for that saying.

First I didn't say it doesn't help - reread my post. Just don't do enough to make worth it the way its implemented.
All I'm saying is if I'm going to spend 7hrs in the room or 5 hrs on a plane with someone that is covid positive and I think that pulling the collar of my t-shirt up over my nose (which by the way is better than some masks and the way they are worn) is going to work to prevent me from catching covid.... I'm going home covid positive. Again not saying they don't help and in some situations beneficial, just not in the case of long indoor exposure. As far as all the studies, there are so many other variables going on in real world situations I don't think it is possible to get a specific read on mask success metrics. What was the chance of outbreak without masks, what is the distancing happening, what other protocols are being used outside of masks, etc. It's not "my science", if just my f*** common sense. Next time you go hang out and extended amount of time indoors with someone covid positive you go ahead and pull your t-shirt up over your nose and I hope I'm wrong.


Edit: btw, when I fly I use a N95 mask with gasket rim. And yes I am saying pick a side, either do it right or stop pretending we are doing anything with masks and throw out. Limited exposure (running into a store and out) then masking as implemented probably worth it.

 

[MidnightRider]

The only reason they aren't enforcing them uniformly is because of people complaining about them. They don't want to upset the anti maskers- and yes - lose their money.

Another way to say this is - it is not worth upsetting them because the way mask usage is implemented across the board is not that effective anyway.

 

[MidnightRider]

Sorry I'm a little rant-y today. Saw more than one person today walking outside by themselves with masks on. Come on - where does this messaging come from. This strikes me as mentally unhealthy/crippling as someone with OCD compulsively washing their hands every 10 mins. But better believe this person is doing because of the science.

 

[Bruce]

Sorry I'm a little rant-y today. Saw more than one person today walking outside by themselves with masks on. Come on - where does this messaging come from. This strikes me as mentally unhealthy/crippling as someone with OCD compulsively washing their hands every 10 mins. But better believe this person is doing because of the science.

You criticize people for choosing to protect themselves? My experience is that many people who have worn masks for their work or school day are no longer bothered by a mask on their face and often forget it is there.

Regardless of logic they certainly are well within their rights.

 

[tabbibus]

Sorry I'm a little rant-y today. Saw more than one person today walking outside by themselves with masks on. Come on - where does this messaging come from. This strikes me as mentally unhealthy/crippling as someone with OCD compulsively washing their hands every 10 mins. But better believe this person is doing because of the science.

Many of my patients elect to wear a mask outside because it helps with their breathing. Their asthma/copd is very sensitive to air quality and the masks have helped them stay very healthy during the pandemic.

Then there's me, who freaking forgets he has the stupid mask on until a few minutes after I'm outside, then I yank it off.

 

[MidnightRider]

You criticize people for choosing to protect themselves? My experience is that many people who have worn masks for their work or school day are no longer bothered by a mask on their face and often forget it is there.

Regardless of logic they certainly are well within their rights.

I certainly don't criticize them, I feel sorry for them. If the messaging that has been impressed on them that they should fear for their health while enjoying a walk outside by themselves than that is terrible, and I just feel really bad that it has come to that for some people. If it is for a different reason than fine but we all know that that is likely untrue when you see someone out on a walking path in the middle of no where wearing a mask. The world has gone f**kn mad, and so much messaging is pandering in the name of science for political and personal agenda. Gets me worked up.

 

[Lurch]

Regardless of logic they certainly are well within their rights.

As are those who elect not to get vaccinated, nor wear masks, nor hide in their basements. I certainly don't hear you clamoring to defend their ability to choose for themselves.