The Vaccine

[anmut]

This is an example of how misinformation spreads.

I can't judge all of it; having clicked on #21, a topic I am very familiar with and one I've been professionally involved in for decades, I wouldn't call it anything else than a complete vomit, not even intellectual masturbation, just a complete, uneducated, vomit.

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But see, not willing to even concede that there's a 1% possibility that one of those lines could be REMOTELY true, and not open it up to debate, is the reason this issue is so divisive!

You have one group that's saying "Listen, we know we told you a dozen things incorrect early on, but THIS TIME it's different, so just take us at face value and you're pretty much a murderer if you don't."

On the other side says "Listen, we have questions - we're reading a lot of other information that you so-called trusted individuals told us was BS but then back tracked on. So, why is this information being handled more like propaganda and less like fact, and why can't we get some debate on some of these topics? Oh, you're not willing to even entertain my questions - well that must mean that EVERYTHING you say is false/and or cannot be trusted."

 

[anmut]

Because we run a for profit healthcare system in this country. You don't make money giving things free. Medical bankruptcy is #1 reason.....pretty sick (pardon the pun).

Should be a dad joke! Yes, for profit. So I need someone explain to me how cancer and heart disease isn't on the scale of a pandemic-like issue in this country, but virus that seems to kill those suffering from cancer and heart disease the most, deserves this attention?

I mean, if this country was overall healthier, Covid is basically, and I hate to say this, "just the flu." Back that up a step, and you have to ask "Why won't drug makers, health experts, and politicians" demand that cancer and heart disease patients be treated for free? I mean, if they REALLY care about us?

Oh right, because profit. Because someone has to pay for it. So what the rest of us ASK is "Why is THIS vaccine suddenly so important for me to inject into my body... yo, I think I've read this book / seen this movie before... and it's not for the reasons we're being told."

 

[Julian]

Should be a dad joke! Yes, for profit. So I need someone explain to me how cancer and heart disease isn't on the scale of a pandemic-like issue in this country, but virus that seems to kill those suffering from cancer and heart disease the most, deserves this attention?

I mean, if this country was overall healthier, Covid is basically, and I hate to say this, "just the flu." Back that up a step, and you have to ask "Why won't drug makers, health experts, and politicians" demand that cancer and heart disease patients be treated for free? I mean, if they REALLY care about us?

Oh right, because profit. Because someone has to pay for it. So what the rest of us ASK is "Why is THIS vaccine suddenly so important for me to inject into my body... yo, I think I've read this book / seen this movie before... and it's not for the reasons we're being told."

Pretty simple answer really. Cancer and heart disease aren't caused by a virus. If they were, and we developed a vaccine, we'd eradicate them both. Covid is a virus. We know how to fight viruses. Is this really that hard to understand?

Cancer is one of the most expensive diseases to treat. Covid - I've not researched the per dose cost....but lets say $500.....its chump change compared to Cancer. Its the lint at the bottom of your pocket.

No to mention "fully" vaccinated Olympic athletes testing Positive. How does that inspire confidence in getting vaxd

The vaccine doesn't prevent you from getting the disease!
The vaccine teaches your body to respond to the virus so it can kill it off quickly, preventing you from having to go to the hospital, being put on a ventilator and possibly dying. Pretty inspiring as far as my health is concerned!
You can google and choose your favorite source - but most are reporting that 97%+ of new covid hospitalizations are people who are NOT vaccinated. INSPIRING! All things being equal, if the vaccines weren't working, then it would be 40% of people being admitted to hospital would be Non-vaccinated. The math is compelling and simple.

Oh, and what we don't know, because its hard to prove a negative, is IF the vaccine does indeed effectively prevent you from getting the disease. We KNOW it MASSIVELY reduces your symptoms, so its not a major leap to think that there is a scale of symptom reduction from NONE - to a very few who need hospitalizing, and everything in between. But that ethics prevents us from actually intentionally infecting people to test the efficacy - so we rely on real world data - REALLY COMPELLING IRREFUTABLE real world data.

 

[swatski]

not willing to even concede that there's a 1% possibility that one of those lines could be REMOTELY true

Not only willing to concede, these notions are actively pursued - it's the most basic tenet of mechanistic, hypothesis driven research, where any hypothesis to be valid needs a null-hypothesis, in order to be experientially and statistically verifiable. It is at the core of any and all serious medical trials and biomedical research in general. Conducted by professionals who are dedicated, hard working experts - as no one else survives brutal pressures of NIH-funded peer review, the jobs in those fields are extremely competitive.

That is why the vaccines we have available here are working, unlike the Russian and the Chinese. It's the NIH intra and extramural biomedical research, based on peer review and competitive funding, at work.

These are the same people who are behind the sequencing of the human genome, and now gazzilions of cancer genomes, and the same people who managed to figure out how to use CRISPR/Cas9 to knock segments of human genome in and out.

So yes, let's let those like the uneducated guy posting their 21 point incredibly stupid "manifesto" decide the vaccination ins and outs?? (NOT a good idea)

Who are you kidding?

Playing dumb is just that, playing dumb.

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[Julian]

As for what @chiptape posted.....I don't have the inclination to read it. And I am very weary of a person that has zero posts, all of a sudden dropping in to post it.

His IP is blacklisted by 3 services, I think our SPAM filter limits at 4?...... @Bruce

 

[swatski]

I don't have the inclination to read it.

Your inclination was correct, if you ask me.
I clicked on that vile vomit.
... I feel like I need a shower, and a disinfectant, lolol.

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[anmut]

Not only willing to concede, these notions are actively pursued - it's the most basic tenet of mechanistic, hypothesis driven research, where any hypothesis to be valid needs a null-hypothesis, in order to be experientially and statistically verifiable. It is at the core of any and all serious medical trials and biomedical research in general. Conducted by professionals who are dedicated, hard working experts - as no one else survives brutal pressures of NIH-funded peer review, the jobs in those fields are extremely competitive.

That is why the vaccines we have available here are working, unlike the Russian and the Chinese. It's the NIH intra and extramural biomedical research, based on peer review and competitive funding, at work.

These are the same people who are behind the sequencing of the human genome, and now gazzilions of cancer genomes, and the same people who managed to figure out how to use CRISPR/Cas9 to knock segments of human genome in and out.

So yes, let's let the guys posting their 21 point credo decide the vaccination ins and outs?

Who are you kidding?

Playing dumb is just that, playing dumb.

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Exactly my point though. Talking down to people that don't understand how these things work doesn't do the vax-is-good side any good. You (not you personally) just come off as a pretentious jerk.

Kinda like when someone comes to the forum and says "Hey, are jet boats good for my family?" We (try not to) dump a ton of data down their throat about pump sizes, power-to-weight, flow velocity, etc. and then rip on them because they don't have a clue about what we're talking about...

In my humble opinion, it's the same thing:

Newbie to the forum: "What's the advantage of a jet boat over an outboard?"
Pretentious jetboaters.net covid like answer: "Wtf is wrong with you, don't you care about your family? If you loved your children you would not run an outboard - how do you even function as a human? Here's a link to all the parts of the jet pump, do your own research, dumbass..."

 

[swatski]

His IP is blacklisted by 3 services...... @Bruce

There is a fucking surprise.

Kudos to those who gave this asshole thumbs up?

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[anmut]

Pretty simple answer really. Cancer and heart disease aren't caused by a virus. If they were, and we developed a vaccine, we'd eradicate them both. Covid is a virus. We know how to fight viruses. Is this really that hard to understand?

Cancer is one of the most expensive diseases to treat. Covid - I've not researched the per dose cost....but lets say $500.....its chump change compared to Cancer. Its the lint at the bottom of your pocket.

Okay, but if the vax is preventative for the community as a whole, then preventing heart disease and cancer, could/should be handled the same?

 

[anmut]

There is a fucking surprise.

Kudos to those who gave this asshole thumbs up?

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See, you can't blindly dismiss opinions without expecting people to blindly dismiss yours. It's all about respectful dialog - that's the only way.

 

[swatski]

Kinda like when someone comes to the forum and says "Hey, are jet boats good for my family?"

No. It is not, or it wouldn't be a problem, misinformation.

Instead, it's:
Kinda like when someone comes to the forum and says "Hey, I heard jet boats suck ass and blow up vaginas; that's why I'll never buy one and tell everyone to stay away".

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[swatski]

See, you can't blindly dismiss opinions without expecting people to blindly dismiss yours. It's all about respectful dialog - that's the only way.

Okay. You win.

I'm humbled.

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[anmut]

Instead, it's:
Kinda like when someone comes to the forum and says "Hey, I heard jet boats suck ass and blow up vaginas; that's why I'll never buy one and tell everyone to stay away".

That's fair. How about:

"Listen, my wife wants a jet boat, but I've read a ton of stories about how they suck up ropes, get clogged with weeds, and were used as fodder to execute a political coup in Pakistan..."

 

[adrianp89]

Where is that beating a dead horse meme?

 

[2kwik4u]

Where is that beating a dead horse meme?

It's been beat to death too many times. Lets replace it with the popcorn emoji

 

[2kwik4u]

See, you can't blindly dismiss opinions without expecting people to blindly dismiss yours. It's all about respectful dialog - that's the only way.

Sooo.....He didn't blindly dismiss. He went and read it. Realized it flew in the face of years of specialized training. Then dismissed it as something that is so far displaced from the reality of the situation, that there are no words to describe it. THEN he dismissed it. He skipped over describing those steps, most likely because of the level of outlandish content.

I didn't read the post, but knowing @swatski it's gotta be pretty damn bad for him to call it vomit. I've gone toe to toe with the guy online, and he can be plenty articulate when needed.

 

[Evil Sports]

If I didnt have Covid earlier this year I would probably have gotten the shot by now. As long as I show lgG antibodies Im going to hold off. Im far from an anti vaxer or a political hardo there's just something keeping me from getting it. Once I dont show lgG I will have to make a decision but it gets even harder when there is No clear guidance on previous infection and the protection it provides. First it was only 90 days, then it was 6 months now its up to a year?? I personally dont disrespect anyone's feelings or opinion on this, its your life. I just want clear science.

 

[Julian]

Mr Chiptape is indeed a spammer - account and posts have been eliminated, IP address banned (as many services have already blacklisted it). He must be rotating through IP addresses once he's blacklisted....just squeaked under our limit of 4 when he signed up.

 

[anmut]

Sooo.....He didn't blindly dismiss. He went and read it. Realized it flew in the face of years of specialized training. Then dismissed it as something that is so far displaced from the reality of the situation, that there are no words to describe it. THEN he dismissed it. He skipped over describing those steps, most likely because of the level of outlandish content.

I didn't read the post, but knowing @swatski it's gotta be pretty damn bad for him to call it vomit. I've gone toe to toe with the guy online, and he can be plenty articulate when needed.

Oh, his post says he clicked on it and then called it vomit, but whatever, semantics. Still though, dismissal of questions/opinion based "here's what we currently know" kinda puts us full circle back to "reasons people don't trust experts/doctors/politicians/fellow jet boat operators, when it comes to covid information."

I mean, the definition of the scientific method is systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses. Also known as: "this is what we know now, until it's proven differently." That is 100% the case with covid.

Unfortunately the "marketing" of the vax has been "this is what we know now, FU for questioning it." So one has to understand WHY there's so much mistrust.

In my opinion, there's a very good chance, a very real chance, just by observing what has happened with covid, that there are things about this vaccine that is being opined as "facts" now will turn out to be half-truths or maybe even false in the future. The history of this virus shows us this, and the scientific method demands it.

Edit: If I could Monday Morning QB the vax roll-out, I would had the medical community, media, and politicians start the conversation like you start a really good meeting. With an apology.

"Hey listen, you know, we weren't 100% on covid, we did what we could when we could. We had your best interest in mind, but we got a lot of things wrong too. We're going to take this back and learn from it. I know this is probably causing a lot of mistrust about these vaccines, but we really just want to set the record straight and give you, the public that can think for yourselves, the best information possible so that you might make the most informed choice."

I swear, had it started with that ^^ you'd have an 80% vax rate.

But no, they all doubled down, got mean, turned into karens, and refused to admit culpability. Too bad, so sad. America, 2021.

 

[Julian]

If I didnt have Covid earlier this year I would probably have gotten the shot by now. As long as I show lgG antibodies Im going to hold off. Im far from an anti vaxer or a political hardo there's just something keeping me from getting it. Once I dont show lgG I will have to make a decision but it gets even harder when there is No clear guidance on previous infection and the protection it provides. First it was only 90 days, then it was 6 months now its up to a year?? I personally dont disrespect anyone's feelings or opinion on this, its your life. I just want clear science.

The duration of efficacy is best determined by real life tracking - and unfortunately, it will require tracking against each of the variants. So as new variants pop up, the first honest answer will be "we don't know".

And I've been meaning to ask....your signature pick is not coming through.....did you move or change permissions on it?