The Vaccine

[Robconn]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/06/14/covid-cases-vaccination-rates/?fbclid=IwAR3t1ZUzcxyOnUGi1Dgne8tsKgeMK7h1mE6SLrfCUKGChONr2w4YbFciQ0U

At this point, 80-90% of admissions are non vaccinated and younger. So, local percentage is similar to what the media is reporting nation wide.

 

[2kwik4u]

Oh, his post says he clicked on it and then called it vomit, but whatever, semantics. Still though, dismissal of questions/opinion based "here's what we currently know" kinda puts us full circle back to "reasons people don't trust experts/doctors/politicians/fellow jet boat operators, when it comes to covid information."

I mean, the definition of the scientific method is systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses. Also known as: "this is what we know now, until it's proven differently." That is 100% the case with covid.

Unfortunately the "marketing" of the vax has been "this is what we know now, FU for questioning it." So one has to understand WHY there's so much mistrust.

In my opinion, there's a very good chance, a very real chance, just by observing what has happened with covid, that there are things about this vaccine that is being opined as "facts" now will turn out to be half-truths or maybe even false in the future. The history of this virus shows us this, and the scientific method demands it.

Edit: If I could Monday Morning QB the vax roll-out, I would had the medical community, media, and politicians start the conversation like you start a really good meeting. With an apology.

"Hey listen, you know, we weren't 100% on covid, we did what we could when we could. We had your best interest in mind, but we got a lot of things wrong too. We're going to take this back and learn from it. I know this is probably causing a lot of mistrust about these vaccines, but we really just want to set the record straight and give you, the public that can think for yourselves, the best information possible so that you might make the most informed choice."

I swear, had it started with that ^^ you'd have an 80% vax rate.

But no, they all doubled down, got mean, turned into karens, and refused to admit culpability. Too bad, so sad. America, 2021.

Man, so much to unpack here.

You're right. We don't know the long term effects of THIS vaccine. We DO know the long term effects of many other vaccines using the same technology. Should we continue on with a deadly pandemic, or trust that this one will work like all the rest of them? How many times have you gotten in a car and wondered if the steering wheel works the same in this one as the last one? That's the level of confidence that the scientific community has in vaccines. Not even that the steering wheel works, but that it's not inverted controls, and left is still left. The scientific community didn't brand new technology in 10-ish months, it just repurposed an existing tech to cover a different edge case.

What facts are there in that previous paragraph that are opined as such that you would argue are not accurate? What part do you not understand, need clarification or data on? We'll go find sources together to prove/disprove.

I don't think an apology is needed at any level. Full stop. A vast majority of people took it upon themselves to take the government mandates as facts rather than the "stop gap, best we know, do this for now" measures they were. Yea, the scientific and government communities had a wild ride of do this, don't do that, no do this twice, whoops we were wrong. How or why did anyone take that as fact, and not the best attempt to handle the situation that it was. It's like someone that's never been on a sinking boat getting close to a panic. Bail. wait, no, lets restart, no bail again with two buckets, no wait, call the coast guard, no wait get a life vest. The current set of leaders and scientists had never seen this level of pandemic in their working careers, you can't fault them for some missteps. If you do, that's on you for not getting the gravity of the situation.

The vaccine is a continuation of this same line of thinking. This is the best we know. right now. It's relatively low risk, easy to deploy, and is developing a great track record. Just like social distancing, masking, and hand washing. At this point, IMO, anyone that is capable, and doesn't get the vaccine is just doing it out of spite, malice, or misunderstanding. There are no logical reasons to abstain.

 

[anmut]

Man, so much to unpack here.

You're right. We don't know the long term effects of THIS vaccine. We DO know the long term effects of many other vaccines using the same technology. Should we continue on with a deadly pandemic, or trust that this one will work like all the rest of them? How many times have you gotten in a car and wondered if the steering wheel works the same in this one as the last one? That's the level of confidence that the scientific community has in vaccines. Not even that the steering wheel works, but that it's not inverted controls, and left is still left. The scientific community didn't brand new technology in 10-ish months, it just repurposed an existing tech to cover a different edge case.

What facts are there in that previous paragraph that are opined as such that you would argue are not accurate? What part do you not understand, need clarification or data on? We'll go find sources together to prove/disprove.

I don't think an apology is needed at any level. Full stop. A vast majority of people took it upon themselves to take the government mandates as facts rather than the "stop gap, best we know, do this for now" measures they were. Yea, the scientific and government communities had a wild ride of do this, don't do that, no do this twice, whoops we were wrong. How or why did anyone take that as fact, and not the best attempt to handle the situation that it was. It's like someone that's never been on a sinking boat getting close to a panic. Bail. wait, no, lets restart, no bail again with two buckets, no wait, call the coast guard, no wait get a life vest. The current set of leaders and scientists had never seen this level of pandemic in their working careers, you can't fault them for some missteps. If you do, that's on you for not getting the gravity of the situation.

The vaccine is a continuation of this same line of thinking. This is the best we know. right now. It's relatively low risk, easy to deploy, and is developing a great track record. Just like social distancing, masking, and hand washing. At this point, IMO, anyone that is capable, and doesn't get the vaccine is just doing it out of spite, malice, or misunderstanding. There are no logical reasons to abstain.

Thanks for your candor. I'm staying unvax'd for religious reasons, personally. Vaccine seems to work for those that are at risk the most, however my personal opinions on where this fits with scripture puts me in the "illogical" bucket, apparently.

I do think you should consider this statement, though: "A vast majority of people took it upon themselves to take the government mandates as facts rather than the "stop gap, best we know, do this for now" measures they were."

I don't remember anyone in the media, government, or at the state or federal level saying "these are stop gap measures." Quite the opposite, these were laws to be followed and worshipped, from the moments they left their lips.

But maybe that's the difference between a skeptic and a believer when it comes to something so divisive.

 

[Julian]

There are no logical reasons to abstain.

There is a very small % of the population of immunocompromised people who, at the advice of their healthcare professionals, should not be vaccinated. (they also probably should remain quarantined).

 

[BigN8]

On the positive side of things....we are headed to Roatan within the next few weeks. I just read on the Hondurus site that proof of Covid vaccine means you don't have to show a negative Covid test prior to entry. I don't know whether to rely on this or not. Part of me thinks I should still get a negative Covid test even though I have vaccine proof?? Anyone else travel to a country that is allowing proof of vaccine vs negative Covid test 72 hrs prior to entry?? Any hassles?

 

[Julian]

I don't remember anyone in the media, government, or at the state or federal level saying "these are stop gap measures." Quite the opposite, these were laws to be followed and worshipped, from the moments they left their lips.

I'm not sure what you are referring to here. "These were laws" ? Are you referring to quarantine and masking laws? Do you think quarantine and masks don't work? Are we really back to that again? Heck...back in the 1800s they knew small pox was a deadly contagious disease....they didn't just quarantine your boat....they would burn it. Now admitedly we've gotten better at counter attacking viruses.....but we aren't going to say that quarantine and masks don't work.....because we've know for centuries that they do.

 

[Cobra Jet Steering LLC]

Being in the late late 60's I received both my shots and had no reservations about it. But now I am still suffering from severe muscle cramps and sciatic nerve pain that is crippling and it began directly after the second shot. I am being severely tortured every day I have no idea about medicine but my doctor said she would not be the least bit surprised as many people are having muscle and heart issues directly following their vaccination. All my muscles in my lower back and all the way to my ankles are cramping so bad I can hardly sleep and when I do manage to get some sleep it usually wakes me up every 2 hours and I can not walk without a rolling walker to support me.
Each time I get out of bed I have to slowly pull myself around the bed with my arms and slide my feet off the edge then painfully get to my feet and hold the walker. I lived a very active life but now I can't even cook dinner without the walker to sit on next to the stove because standing is really painful. I keep hoping it will get better but so far it is not doing anything except getting worse, muscles locking up and severe Charlie horses all day and all night I suspect the muscle contractions are causing the discs in my back to move and this is causing the severe stabbing pains in my back and legs. So I just wonder if other people are experiencing these symptoms after getting their shots and if so do they ever go away. I did the short videos that I posted on my facebook page just prior to getting my second shot and you can see that I am having no problem doing what I always did. Driving new P W C's like a mad man and even standing on the seat no hands carving the mangrove trees and even leaning down while standing on the seat to turn the handle bars. I can't even put my socks on now.

 

[Julian]

On the positive side of things....we are headed to Roatan within the next few weeks. I just read on the Hondurus site that proof of Covid vaccine means you don't have to show a negative Covid test prior to entry. I don't know whether to rely on this or not. Part of me thinks I should still get a negative Covid test even though I have vaccine proof?? Anyone else travel to a country that is allowing proof of vaccine vs negative Covid test 72 hrs prior to entry?? Any hassles?

We went to the Turks.....they still wanted negative tests. But tourist money drives many of these countries, so they need to make it as easy as they can! The main risk for you is if you are infected and have break through symptoms....they'll quarantine you. So I'd only get tested if I was symptomatic.....

 

[swatski]

If I didnt have Covid earlier this year I would probably have gotten the shot by now. As long as I show lgG antibodies Im going to hold off. Im far from an anti vaxer or a political hardo there's just something keeping me from getting it. Once I dont show lgG I will have to make a decision but it gets even harder when there is No clear guidance on previous infection and the protection it provides. First it was only 90 days, then it was 6 months now its up to a year?? I personally dont disrespect anyone's feelings or opinion on this, its your life. I just want clear science.

I hear you, and wouldn't expect clear answers to all those questions anytime soon.

While there is PLENTY of good info, readily available, unfortunately, due to preponderance of misinformation and paranoia getting to it takes more work than frankly it should. I guess more information is not necessarily better, lol.

Not a covid expert, but as a former immunologist - the only immunological (serological) test I would consider useful in this context is the "T-Detect" test by Adaptive Biotechnologies. T-Detect would, arguably, be a closest thing to an actual snapshot of "immunological memory" acquired, and retained, as a result of a prior infection/exposure. It could be described as a "clonality" test, not serological (detecting antibodies - such as IgM, IgG etc.), or RT-PCR, or FISH - for viral detection.

Immunology is a messy field, and so is virology; hardly the exact sciences. With that said, just like association between smoking and lung cancer, association between vaccination and acquired immunity is so strong at this point it constitutes a proof, in the epidemiological sense - best proof we have, anyway. Does it mean working in 100% of cases? Hardly.

All that to say, a prior exposure to covid does not afford the same level of protection as the vaccination; indeed, it's not even close (statistically speaking).

--

 

[swatski]

Being in the late late 60's I received both my shots and had no reservations about it. But now I am still suffering from severe muscle cramps and sciatic nerve pain that is crippling and it began directly after the second shot. I am being severely tortured every day I have no idea about medicine but my doctor said she would not be the least bit surprised as many people are having muscle and heart issues directly following their vaccination. All my muscles in my lower back and all the way to my ankles are cramping so bad I can hardly sleep and when I do manage to get some sleep it usually wakes me up every 2 hours and I can not walk without a rolling walker to support me.
Each time I get out of bed I have to slowly pull myself around the bed with my arms and slide my feet off the edge then painfully get to my feet and hold the walker. I lived a very active life but now I can't even cook dinner without the walker to sit on next to the stove because standing is really painful. I keep hoping it will get better but so far it is not doing anything except getting worse, muscles locking up and severe Charlie horses all day and all night I suspect the muscle contractions are causing the discs in my back to move and this is causing the severe stabbing pains in my back and legs. So I just wonder if other people are experiencing these symptoms after getting their shots and if so do they ever go away. I did the short videos that I posted on my facebook page just prior to getting my second shot and you can see that I am having no problem doing what I always did. Driving new P W C's like a mad man and even standing on the seat no hands carving the mangrove trees and even leaning down while standing on the seat to turn the handle bars. I can't even put my socks on now.

That is terrible.

I no longer follow the field very closely, but needless to say, adverse events and exacerbations of the underlying autoimmune disease such as rheumatoid arthritis or lupus have to be taken into consideration very seriously. I think the rheumatologist, if you see one, should know how to manage such situations; they also should know know whether the vaccines can be indicated or not, given the risk level in their patients.

--

 

[anmut]

I'm not sure what you are referring to here. "These were laws" ? Are you referring to quarantine and masking laws? Do you think quarantine and masks don't work? Are we really back to that again? Heck...back in the 1800s they knew small pox was a deadly contagious disease....they didn't just quarantine your boat....they would burn it. Now admitedly we've gotten better at counter attacking viruses.....but we aren't going to say that quarantine and masks don't work.....because we've know for centuries that they do.

I think you and I are disagreeing on how it was presented to the public. If you were a believer in "the science" from day one (and I'm not saying that in a disrespectful manner), then "following the science" to the eventuality of not questioning the vaccine is an obvious conclusion. And if you were of that mindset, those that question the science really are just an ignorant mass waiting to die. This is a total generalization, of course, and I'm not trying to put words in your mouth.

However, to many of us the mandates for lockdowns, masks, social distancing, plastic on the card readers, plexiglass at the cash register, not allowing people go boating, don't get your hair cut, wearing masks alone in your car, etc., were presented as "laws to be followed by your benevolent and all knowing government, doctors, and media!" Not only that, but there were different laws in different states, all depended on the shade of blue or red of your governor. Of course, then we saw examples of those same lawmakers / scientists / media, doing the exact opposite.

So again, you can see our skepticism when we're told "Just get the vax, it's fine, because we say so," right? And to my earlier point, WHY an apology, and not a doubling down, may have been a better approach.

Anyway, welcome to the U.S.A. 2021, where tribalism isn't going anywhere.

 

[2kwik4u]

There is a very small % of the population of immunocompromised people who, at the advice of their healthcare professionals, should not be vaccinated. (they also probably should remain quarantined).

Yea, tried to keep that in with anyone approved, as in approved by both government and their doctor. Could've worded that better.

 

[GTBRMC]

Being in the late late 60's I received both my shots and had no reservations about it. But now I am still suffering from severe muscle cramps and sciatic nerve pain that is crippling and it began directly after the second shot. I am being severely tortured every day I have no idea about medicine but my doctor said she would not be the least bit surprised as many people are having muscle and heart issues directly following their vaccination. All my muscles in my lower back and all the way to my ankles are cramping so bad I can hardly sleep and when I do manage to get some sleep it usually wakes me up every 2 hours and I can not walk without a rolling walker to support me.
Each time I get out of bed I have to slowly pull myself around the bed with my arms and slide my feet off the edge then painfully get to my feet and hold the walker. I lived a very active life but now I can't even cook dinner without the walker to sit on next to the stove because standing is really painful. I keep hoping it will get better but so far it is not doing anything except getting worse, muscles locking up and severe Charlie horses all day and all night I suspect the muscle contractions are causing the discs in my back to move and this is causing the severe stabbing pains in my back and legs. So I just wonder if other people are experiencing these symptoms after getting their shots and if so do they ever go away. I did the short videos that I posted on my facebook page just prior to getting my second shot and you can see that I am having no problem doing what I always did. Driving new P W C's like a mad man and even standing on the seat no hands carving the mangrove trees and even leaning down while standing on the seat to turn the handle bars. I can't even put my socks on now.

That really sucks. Hope you can get to the bottom of it and get relief. Good luck, Jeff.

 

[Evil Sports]

Swat, Do you know how I can get a T-Detect" test by Adaptive Biotechnologies. Im game

 

[HangOutdoors]

@Evil Sports You gotta fix the pic in your signature, I have to scroll down a good way on your posts to get to the next post. It is not showing.

 

[Evil Sports]

Test, That better? Sorry for hogging bandwidth

 

[HangOutdoors]

@Evil Sports Now it is small but no picture.

 

[Evil Sports]

Pic deleted, does anyone really need to see my boat

 

[swatski]

Swat, Do you know how I can get a T-Detect" test by Adaptive Biotechnologies. Im game

For Patients - T-Detect

www.t-detect.com

I also reached out to on of their medical liaisons for any additional information, seems very straight forward but want to make sure.
Here is his response:
"Anyone above the age of 18 can get T detect. Need an order from a physician. It costs $150 and HSA/FSA can be used. I can put you in touch with someone from that team if you would like to help easily facilitate. Best way is to go to our website and get it done."

Let me know if this works for you, and happy to help/facilitate further if you like.

(I currently have no business relationships with those guys that would warrant disclosing as a potential conflict.)

--

 

[Bruce]

There is a fucking surprise.

Kudos to those who gave this asshole thumbs up?

--

He was a spammer promoting disinformation. He is gone.