The Vaccine

[swatski]

I can't control how you interpret it. I think mRNA technology is a huge breakthrough and incredible technology. I think this will change the future of vaccines in a positive way. I am also excited in its potential use beyond vaccines. I call them mRNA injection because that is what it is. Am I wrong?

But
They are not experimental.

First successful mRNA experiments were conducted in the 80s, using Xenopus laevis (frog oocyte) model experiments.

Very, very successful.

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[Rumbo]

You are not wrong. If I offended you, I apologize.

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I don't offend easily and I quite enjoy debate. I think speech and debate is vital in gathering information. However, I don't think that demeaning others is persuasive. And I think everyone's goal in this thread is for people to protect themselves and make the best decisions for their circumstances. I know there is a huge part of the population that benefits from this injection. I also recognize that there are those for whom the risk outweighs the reward. Neither you nor I are in the position to decide that, unless they are patients of yours.

 

[Rumbo]

But
They are not experimental.

First successful mRNA experiments were conducted in the 80s, using Xenopus laevis (frog oocyte) model experiments.

Very, very successful.

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I think you're mistaking me for someone else. I haven't referred to them as experimental. I understand this technology has been in development since the 80's. I also understand that vaccine development for SARS vaccines have been in development since the outbreak in the early 2000's. With covid being so similar to SARS I don't think that any of this is new or experimental and don't think I've stated that at all.

 

[swatski]

I don't offend easily and I quite enjoy debate. I think speech and debate is vital in gathering information. However, I don't think that demeaning others is persuasive. And I think everyone's goal in this thread is for people to protect themselves and make the best decisions for their circumstances. I know there is a huge part of the population that benefits from this injection. I also recognize that there are those for whom the risk outweighs the reward. Neither you nor I are in the position to decide that, unless they are patients of yours.

Okay, I may owe you an apology if I have been too aggressive pursuing my points.
But I think you and I come from the same tradition of a meritorious debate, as long as it is about the subject matter.
In which case, no apology.

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[Rumbo]

Okay, I may owe you an apology if I have been too aggressive pursuing my points.
But I think you and I come from the same tradition of a meritorious debate, as long as it is about the subject matter.

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I completely agree and I very much respect and appreciate your knowledge and passion. If I disparaged that at all I apologize. Honestly I don't think that we disagree about this by much. My only point since chiming in on this thread is that I strongly believe in individual liberty. I acknowledge that I may have not approached that in the best manner with some of my comments. However, my main point, and maybe this is presumptive on my part, is that I think that the vast majority of people will make the right decision for themselves and those around them and that we should all respect that.

 

[swatski]

I completely agree and I very much respect and appreciate your knowledge and passion. If I disparaged that at all I apologize. Honestly I don't think that we disagree about this by much. My only point since chiming in on this thread is that I strongly believe in individual liberty. I acknowledge that I may have not approached that in the best manner with some of my comments. However, my main point, and maybe this is presumptive on my part, is that I think that the vast majority of people will make the right decision for themselves and those around them and that we should all respect that.

Yessir.
At the end of the day, all that matters is this:
(heartfelt and sincere)


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[the MfM]

RE: mandates. I live in a state that is considering one for all healthcare workers.

I can tell you without a doubt that a mandate will result in rationing healthcare and delay in service for non emergent care. And higher medical costs. (Due to staff demanding and getting substantial bonus $$$) It doesn’t matter if you are pro vaccine or not. There are a substantial number of young, healthy hospital nurses who have lived through the pandemic and experienced caring for covid patients without a vaccine. They have made the decision that the vaccine unknowns are worse then the risk of covid to them.

Couple that with the substantial number of older nurses who left direct care or retired a few years early during the pandemic and there will be a critical shortage. And the icing on the cake is the schools shut down last year. So there is no new crop of new grads. The few that did actually graduate had no or little practicum time so they are requiring substantial on the job training.

You can argue about the vaccine but mandates will have far reaching consequences.

 

[mwalker4]

Not necessarily. But you are punching above your weight. Which is fine, but at some point you need to ask yourself: what side am I on?

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Are there only two sides.? I personally am very pro vaccine, but I am always concerned about Government mandates. Dissent is important. I've been in the military and in the intelligence world, I've seen how the machine can work and that dissent is important.

I think vaccines are safe and work. I no longer believe that the virus is a threat more significant to the vaccinated than the flu. So to me, the discussion is about at what point is something such a threat that the Government can impose its will on people. I'm not sure yet where I land on that.

 

[Bluewater272]

It's pretty obvious that I'm pro-vaccine, but I also do not support a government-levied mandate.

• Incentives from the government? OK... I guess - but give it to everyone who got vaccinated, not just the people who held out until Joe dangled a check.
• Employer mandates? Yup.
• School mandates? Sure.
• Requirement to travel on public transportation or on airlines? Yes please, and let me buy some booze on the flight too.

But the federal government has no business mandating a medical intervention for someone going about their lives independently. I'm a fairly conservative guy despite my apparent 'weakness' in understanding science, but this is a power that does not lie within the government's purview.

It'd just be nice if the population was sufficiently educated and compassionate enough to make the reasonable decision to get vaccinated so long as there isn't a contraindication to doing so.

 

[Adrian @ JB Solutions]

What will come first…. Me getting the vaccine or my cover for my boat. I’d consider getting it if I it meant I get my cover right then too lol

 

[Robconn]

You know the virus definitely causes deaths and serious health issues. It's not like the vaccine exists for no reason or is killing/harming anywhere near the numbers that the virus is. It's not a perfect solution but its the best we have.

The problem with a lot of your arguments is that you're coming from a fairly illogical conspiracy theorist point of view. This is not an attack, it's just an observation:
- You are demanding answers that don't yet exist. You believe that the government/pharmas have a complete understanding and all the answers around covid and the vaccines, but that they choose to not share it with you so that they can...what?...ruin our lives with a toxic vaccine for fun? For mind control? For money? What?
- Then there's these fringe medical groups, for-profit publications, etc promoting alternative medicines and cures and you're willing to believe that those groups are definitely legit and have your best interests in mind, solely because the government is telling you to be careful with what those groups are saying?

The situation, this virus, and what we know about it is evolving every single day. Them changing their guidance or getting things wrong as it evolves is not "lies" that prove the conspiracy, its trying to chase a moving target. Mask guidance has gone up and down with what they are seeing as far as spread. Vaccine efficacy numbers are unfortunately moving because of virus variants that weren't prevalent when the vaccines were rolled out. That's just how complex problem solving goes.

If there were a silver bullet or magical medicine sitting on the shelf to cure covid they would use it. Trump would have used it, Biden would use it, most every other world leader would use it. If you distrust and fear the government, the society that you live in, and even your fellow jetboaters ? so much that you really believe the whole world is in on an evil conspiracy of this scale, then covid and the vaccine are the absolute least of your concerns. Hopefully you believed in our government and your fellow Americans on some level when you served, so why the hard turn now?

As far as the comments on personal attacks - you're kind of throwing it right back at people or even escalating, so it sounds kind of silly when you get all up in arms about it. Some of the comments are harsh, I'll give you that, but yours are as well. There is a difference between someone pointing out that you're referencing questionable information or not understanding the technical details (which I don't claim to understand) vs. someone just personally attacking you for who you are. Maybe let that stuff go a little bit and it will die down.

RE: mandates. I live in a state that is considering one for all healthcare workers.

I can tell you without a doubt that a mandate will result in rationing healthcare and delay in service for non emergent care. And higher medical costs. (Due to staff demanding and getting substantial bonus $$$) It doesn’t matter if you are pro vaccine or not. There are a substantial number of young, healthy hospital nurses who have lived through the pandemic and experienced caring for covid patients without a vaccine. They have made the decision that the vaccine unknowns are worse then the risk of covid to them.

Couple that with the substantial number of older nurses who left direct care or retired a few years early during the pandemic and there will be a critical shortage. And the icing on the cake is the schools shut down last year. So there is no new crop of new grads. The few that did actually graduate had no or little practicum time so they are requiring substantial on the job training.

You can argue about the vaccine but mandates will have far reaching consequences.

the attrition rate we have experienced in the acute care setting is disturbing. A significant number or nurses, and whole spectrum of allied health professionals have lifted anchor to travel. Resulting in a greater need of agency to fill the ranks. Then there is the staff that test positive for covid. They are out a minimum of ten days. The ones that I know personally that did not get the shot did not fare well as compared to the vaccinated employees. Some have never returned with extended illness. I have always tried to find positive in everything. The only positive is when your fully staffed it’s like the new pay raise. So factor in burnout, fatigue, early retirement. We are left with this surge of preventable tragedies.

 

[crazy4life]

It's pretty obvious that I'm pro-vaccine, but I also do not support a government-levied mandate.

• Incentives from the government? OK... I guess - but give it to everyone who got vaccinated, not just the people who held out until Joe dangled a check.
• Employer mandates? Yup.
• School mandates? Sure.
• Requirement to travel on public transportation or on airlines? Yes please, and let me buy some booze on the flight too.

But the federal government has no business mandating a medical intervention for someone going about their lives independently. I'm a fairly conservative guy despite my apparent 'weakness' in understanding science, but this is a power that does not lie within the government's purview.

It'd just be nice if the population was sufficiently educated and compassionate enough to make the reasonable decision to get vaccinated so long as there isn't a contraindication to doing so.

This is one of the best posts in this entire thread. Succinct and to the point. No name calling or innuendo. Stated his position and the reasoning behind it.

Kudos to you.

 

[mark_m]

It's pretty obvious that I'm pro-vaccine, but I also do not support a government-levied mandate.

• Incentives from the government? OK... I guess - but give it to everyone who got vaccinated, not just the people who held out until Joe dangled a check.
• Employer mandates? Yup.
• School mandates? Sure.
• Requirement to travel on public transportation or on airlines? Yes please, and let me buy some booze on the flight too.

But the federal government has no business mandating a medical intervention for someone going about their lives independently. I'm a fairly conservative guy despite my apparent 'weakness' in understanding science, but this is a power that does not lie within the government's purview.

It'd just be nice if the population was sufficiently educated and compassionate enough to make the reasonable decision to get vaccinated so long as there isn't a contraindication to doing so.

Noodling on this idea of the role of government, I found a slide deck outlining the various responsibilities around public health.

https://www.cdc.gov/publichealthgateway/docs/usph101.pdf

I also feel that public trust in our government has slowly eroded since World War II, and accelerated in the 70's with Vietnam, Watergate, etc. The media trying to transform and adapt to $ by yearning for clicks and eyeballs certainly has not helped either. "Dirty Laundry" by Don Henley comes to mind.

 

[Rumbo]

Both Pfizer and Moderna state in their literature that these injections do not impart immunity. Considering the definition of vaccine or vaccination I don't think it's accurate to call these injections vaccines. I do think language is important in preventing the spread of disinformation so I will not call the injections vaccines. That doesn't mean that I am in favor nor opposed to them, simply being accurate with their description.

Just a quick follow up on this thought...if people didn’t consider these vaccines (as in imparting immunity) would it change their behavior post injection? If they continued some mitigation practices post injection wouldn’t that be a good thing? Many people thought they could completely go back to normal life after getting the second dose. Has that contributed to this current spike? So why are we calling this a vaccine? Wouldn’t calling them a prophylactic be more accurate? I don’t think using that language would cause anymore hesitation than what already exists. This is why language is important in my opinion.

 

[Robconn]

I

Just a quick follow up on this thought...if people didn’t consider these vaccines (as in imparting immunity) would it change their behavior post injection? If they continued some mitigation practices post injection wouldn’t that be a good thing? Many people thought they could completely go back to normal life after getting the second dose. Has that contributed to this current spike? So why are we calling this a vaccine? Wouldn’t calling them a prophylactic be more accurate? I don’t think using that language would cause anymore hesitation than what already exists. This is why language is important in my opinion.

I think you could use prophylactic and the vaccine interchangeably in the name of simplicity. For example, when we place a patient on a bipap. Should we order an anti nausea medicine as well. They may not exhibit overt signs of nausea but it’s recommended as a preventative ensuring we don’t contribute to aspiration and subsequently a pneumonia. In that sense it’s a prophylactic. The vaccine is administered to healthy population for the sole purpose of reducing illness and that may require hospitalization and medical intervention. So it’s use could be interpreted as a prophylactic in nature.

 

[tabbibus]

just call it the thing that keeps you from getting bad covid.

 

[scbruet]

Vaccine definition per oxford: a substance used to stimulate the production of antibodies and provide immunity against one or several diseases, prepared from the causative agent of a disease, its products, or a synthetic substitute, treated to act as an antigen without inducing the disease.

Immunity definition per oxford: the ability of an organism to resist a particular infection or toxin by the action of specific antibodies or sensitized white blood cells.

Thats an interesting point on what they call it. A year ago, my dumb brain thought that getting a vaccine means, "I 100% won't get x disease." Then I saw that the covid trials were showing 92% efficacy and I didn't think that was very good. Come to find out, it's the most effective vaccine that we have developed? I've never had a need to be curious how this all works, but I've learned a ton about vaccine process and how we get to herd immunity with them.

Just be comfortable in what you don't know. Not everybody is an expert in every field, no matter what they tell you or post on facebook. The people posting about proteins and what not that I went to high school with on facebook? GTFO, you don't know what you're talking about. You took biology 20 years ago in high school and got a C. Maybe sit out on that technical conversation, haha. I sure do.

 

[Julian]

Just a quick follow up on this thought...if people didn’t consider these vaccines (as in imparting immunity) would it change their behavior post injection? If they continued some mitigation practices post injection wouldn’t that be a good thing? Many people thought they could completely go back to normal life after getting the second dose. Has that contributed to this current spike? So why are we calling this a vaccine? Wouldn’t calling them a prophylactic be more accurate? I don’t think using that language would cause anymore hesitation than what already exists. This is why language is important in my opinion.

I'm not sure where you got the impression that a vaccine is 100% effective, and must be so in order to use the term vaccine. I've not researched past vaccines, but I've never been under the impression that ANY are 100% effective.

Had to do some googling. The polio vaccine is not 100%. Two doses is 90%, 3 are 99%.
Smallpox is 95% effective.

I am glad my local hospital systems are requiring their staff to be vaccinated.

Vaccination programs need large majorities of people to participate if the community is to quash the virus. Otherwise it just keeps spreading. We understood this with Polio and as a country we eliminated it. This should be no different. So what is the difference? THIS SITE and other social media sites are the difference!!!
If social media were around during polio, people would post the ingredients of it and says x ingredient is dangerous....and off it would spread like its own disease!

Polio vaccine ingredients:

POLIO SABIN (oral) vaccine is a magnesium chloride stabilised preparation of live attenuated polio viruses of the Sabin strains type 1 (LS-c, 2ab), type 2 (P712, Ch, 2ab) and type 3 (Leon 12ab). Each dose of OPV contains residual amounts (less than 25 µg) of antibiotics including streptomycin and neomycin.

TERRIFYING!!!!!

 

[Bluewater272]

Both Pfizer and Moderna state in their literature that these injections do not impart immunity. Considering the definition of vaccine or vaccination I don't think it's accurate to call these injections vaccines. I do think language is important in preventing the spread of disinformation so I will not call the injections vaccines. That doesn't mean that I am in favor nor opposed to them, simply being accurate with their description.

1. Provide the literature (both, please)
2. Describe in your own words what 'impart immunity' means, and then tell us how these products do not meet the definition of a vaccine.

I'll wait.

 

[Rumbo]

A year ago, my dumb brain thought that getting a vaccine means, "I 100% won't get x disease."

This is my point. And I don’t think it’s dumb, I think that’s what most of society has been taught. So my question, does this cause less than safe behaviors once people receive their second injection?